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1481  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do you believe in god? on: August 25, 2016, 09:59:35 PM
The problem I have with lecturers like Rabbi Mark Spiro is that I have always believed they use modern thought processes to intellectualize historical mythology. There have always been charismatic believable individuals at the heart of every religious movement (see Jim Jones). These charismatic preachers may even have convinced themselves they are being honest, truthful and really helping people. In fact, they might actually help some societal misfits or weak willed people survive a difficult life path. They have the intellectual capacity to twist the meanings of ancient writings to suit the contemporary situation of man. But, when the direct word of a given god must be interpreted to suit the times or justified to create followers then that's a god not worth listening to. Any real gods words should be timeless.

Just to clarify the class linked above is simply a live reading and discussion of the book Derekh Hashem (The Way of God) a philosophical text about God's purpose in Creation, justice, and ethics. Its author Moshe Chaim Luzzatto died in 1746. Moshe Chaim Luzzatto could arguably be considered a charismatic leader but he is a long dead one. His works have proved influential long after his death so personal charisma is less likely to be a factor. As in all things personal judgement, reason and logic must be applied. I agree with your statement that the word of God should be timeless.  

I have also have a problem when half or more of the rules (commandments) to live by are about "worship me because I'm so wonderful and if you don't I'm going to torture you forever". No charismatic orator is going to be capable of justifying that for me.

Any gods word must be taken at face value. If that word is heinous at its core then I can't justify listening to or believing it is anything more than the ramblings of sadistic ancient men on papyrus. No silvered tongued orator of magnificent intellect will be capable of making me believe otherwise.

This is a view I also understand. I read ancient scriptures as guidance from a far wiser being given to help a primitive and desperate mankind. A gift of truth delivered in a way to make it both functional and comprehensible to our limited intellects. You are not necessarily required to believe in eternal torment to believe in God other interpretations exist. The Old Testament for example has no talk of eternal torment. It simply says that iniquity will befall those who hate God and warns us that the penalty for certain actions is death. It is entirely possible that these are simply a warning, a request that we not kill and hurt ourselves for the iniquity is delivered not via divine retribution but the inevitable consequences of our own foolish choices.
1482  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: August 25, 2016, 06:11:01 PM


Amusing but utterly incoherent. Science is built upon metaphysics.

Fix your life? Fix your metaphysics by Bruce Charlton
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2016/06/fix-your-life-fix-your-metaphysics.html

Metaphysics are your fundamental assumptions. These are chosen: they were chosen by you (although you probably weren't aware of choosing them, but just passively accepted them).

Fundamental assumptions are chosen - but they are not arbitrary; because the assumptions have consequences. You can choose whatever you want to believe - but sometimes you will not be able to make yourself live-by these chosen beliefs; and other times you will live by them (including thinking by them) such that they lead to nonsensical and therefore self-refuting outcomes.

The trouble is that in a world where people have stopped thinking- and when their assumptions lead to incoherent, nonsensical conclusions, instead of sorting-out their metaphysics - they just stop thinking (easier to do than ever before in human history - due to the ubiquity of mass media and social media).

Anyway - my point is that if you have certain (very common) assumptions, then you will either have a nihilistic, hope-less and despairing world view --- or else you will have to stop yourself thinking about anything serious.

There are innumerable commonly-held assumptions that lead to this: that Man has no free will, that the world is either random and unpredictable or else rigidly predetermined, that nothing exists except what has been described by 'science', that morality is a matter of opinion, that beauty is wholly in the eye of the beholder... oh, there are dozens of such.

Indeed, most of people's primary assumptions nowadays are of a type that lead to nonsensical or incoherent conclusions - so it is futile to complain about the low standard of rational public debate when rational debate is only possible on the basis that people are able and willing to examine and revise their assumptions when they lead to absurd outcomes.

Because perhaps the most absurd modern metaphysical assumption of all is that metaphysics is meaningless and all decisions should be made on the basis of 'evidence'!

Whereas (as quickly becomes apparent in any disagreement) unless there is agreement on metaphysical assumptions then the cannot even be agreement on what counts as evidence, leave aside the matter of evaluating the strength of evidence...
1483  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do you believe in god? on: August 25, 2016, 04:44:56 PM
My god would be a kind and gentile caretaker for her people instead of a lunatic hell-bent on the destruction of the earth. When they drift astray from her teachings she would caress them and help them back toward the path of enlightenment. She wouldn't allow bad things to happen to her people. She would end suffering, deformity, hunger, strife and misery for her people. She would be a caretaker god that refuses to throw her people to the wolves only to tell them they are at fault for being inferior and bragging constantly in all of her teachings about how superior she is over her creations. In other words, my god would be a god of love. I'll have to create that one myself because she doesn't exist in any of the religions of the world today.

QuestionAuthority it is clear from your signature that you care deeply about your fellow man and wish to help them. This is one of the most admirable character traits. Your questions are the same as those that caused me to turn away from religion in my younger years. That process was accelerated by the great uneducated masses cryptix mentions eager to tell me everything about their faith but responding like a deer in the headlights when challenged with difficult questions. Your queries are challenging ones. How can God an infinite being the ultimate giver allow horrible things to happen to people? How can a loving god permit suffering, deformity, hunger, strife and misery?

These are questions that have answers and these answers do not rely on blind faith but are instead logical and rational going far beyond the trite response of "God works in mysterious ways". The challenge, however, is that these answers require one to delve deep into the rich intellectual tradition of ethical monotheism which at first glance looks like a shallow pool but on deeper reflection is more of a vast ocean. Your God of love does exist and logic and reason can show you this.

Given the challenging nature of your questions, however, I will freely admit that I am not qualified to answer them. The best I can offer is to direct you to a source that I believe may answer them in a way you find satisfactory.

I would recommend to you to the book The Way of God: Derech Hashem by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto. Which answers these questions logically and systematically in a very organized fashion.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/087306769X/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1/159-3751462-6767111?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=NM9R7T16A9G2147WGMJX&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_i=1598264672

There is a free class in Seattle that is currently going through this book chapter by chapter taught by Rabbi Mark Spiro. To start I would recommend just listening to the first class so you begin to understand how your questions can be answered see if you are interested at all in going further. The audio links can be found here:

http://www.livingjudaism.com/the-way-of-god.html

This class is obviously taught from the the perspective of the Jewish tradition but most of it is applicable to all variations of monotheism. I have found it to be interesting with vast philosophical depth and I am not Jewish.
1484  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do you believe in god? on: August 24, 2016, 05:59:46 PM
I am asking myself the question how does this thing of sustained wealth permeates to more rather than less human beings if The 85 Richest People In The World Have As Much Wealth As The 3.5 Billion Poorest...

The natural conclusion is that such inequity is not sustainable and that it will correct itself to the degree that it is not justified by true productivity differences. Most of these extraordinary gains are facilitated by modern finance which itself is unsustainable. Exactly how it will correct itself and how quickly is up for debate. Anonymint in his essay titled Demise of Finance, Rise of Knowledge (linked above) provided one mechanism of correction. I agree with his analysis.
1485  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do you believe in god? on: August 24, 2016, 04:46:20 PM
Please link, because I'm very doubtful about your Mormon studies.

Sure here is one I came across when I was writing the Health and Religion thread. I have seen others as well.
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/latter-day-saint-social-life-social-research-lds-church-and-its-members/9-secularization

Its a long read so for those who do not want to go through it here is the summary

Quote
For our Mormon sample, then, we find virtually no evidence to support the hypothesis that education has a secularizing influence. For Mormon men, the higher the level of education, the higher one’s level of religious observance. A critical point in our findings is that this holds for several measures of religiosity

I have also seen studies that show that American Orthodox Jews (often considered most religious of the Jews) also have higher levels of education and income than their peers which leads me to believe the they are similar to Mormons in this regard.
 
Your interpretation is wrong. Sustained wealth is based on good economics and education which leads to new scientific achievements - a positive feedback.

...
When did we stop with capitalism? I think I didn't got the memo Roll Eyes

Yep sorry you missed the memo. In Europe Government spending now accounts for over 50% of GDP in many countries. The USA is not far behind. Socialism and government cronyism now dominate our economies. The remnants of capitalism which still exist are shrinking and in decline. The two links below will get you up to speed.

Understand Everything Fundamentally
The Rise of Knowledge

Sustained wealth does require good economics and education but these in turn must be built atop a solid moral foundation or they will not last. A prior and far wiser generation understood this.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

“Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government, can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men; so that we do not depend upon their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.” - James Madison

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” - George Washington
1486  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do you believe in god? on: August 23, 2016, 09:57:20 PM
#1
The correlation is lower IQ equals to less thinking equals to more superstition and religiosity which I think is very logical.

#2
...
More religiosity means less avg. Iq of the population equals to less economic wealth.

#3
...
So as long as we hold on to capitalism the end of religion is designed  to happen.

The wealthiest societies today were until recently very religions or colonies of said societies. It was not imperial China that kicked off the industrial revolution but the very christian and quite religious Great Britain. A more likely interpretation of the data is that increasing wealth leads to decadence and undermines religiosity. High IQ is associated with success and wealth. Low IQ countries stayed poor and religious.

Superstition and religiosity are distinctly separate entities. While it is true that both are currently correlated with low IQ I have argued that only the former will be associated with low IQ over the long term and provided reasons why this may be the case. I also highlighted religious groups that defy this correlation.  

What makes you think we will hold onto capitalism? We lost capitalism some time ago. Freedom requires a solid moral foundation to be maintained. Lose your moral foundation and the rest slowly collapses.
  
1487  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do you believe in god? on: August 23, 2016, 07:40:39 PM
Some interesting links provided by criptix.

Link #1 highlights several studies that show that the average IQ of the religious is less than that of the nonreligious. Fair enough we have all likely met a fanatic at some point in our lives who is unable to coherently string two sentences together but insistent on trying to tell you everything about what is true.

There is certainly a large subset of the population who do not think for themselves but passively go along with whatever is popular. These are the people who embraced Hitler’s ideas on untermenschens, that wholeheartedly enforced Stalin’s purges, and who riot when their football teams win. They are also likely to blindly follow charismatic religious leaders when religion is popular.

However, we are now entering an age of atheism and religion is in transient decline. Soon many these individuals will be flocking instead to the atheist banner because that will be the new “hip” thing. My suspicions is that this coloration will not only prove transient but that it will reverse. This has occurred already in some religious groups like the Mormons and probably the Jews as well.

http://www.mormonsandscience.com/religion--science-blog/education-and-religiosity-mormons-buck-the-trend

Link #2 states that there is a negative coloration between religiosity and wealth but is very sparse on the details. How much of a correlation? Does it still exist if we control for population size rather than simply looking by country. China for example is very big and very low on the religiosity index. Is it being given the same weight as Ghana?

However, let’s set that aside for a minute let’s assume the conclusion is correct and that there is a negative correlation between religiosity and per capita income. Does that mean that religiosity somehow prevents countries from getting wealthy? Probably not because the USA as well as most of Europe was very religious until very recently. The more likely conclusion is that wealth leads people to become less religious and embrace other things like hedonism.

Quote from:  Henning Webb Prentis, Jr
Paradoxically enough, the release of initiative and enterprise made possible by popular self-government ultimately generates disintegrating forces from within. Again and again after freedom has brought opportunity and some degree of plenty, the competent become selfish, luxury-loving and complacent, the incompetent and the unfortunate grow envious and covetous, and all three groups turn aside from the hard road of freedom to worship the Golden Calf of economic security. The historical cycle seems to be: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to apathy; from apathy to dependency; and from dependency back to bondage once more."

Link #3 attempts to show that religion is in decline and that it will continue to decline using a simplistic mathematical model. “According to the model, a single parameter quantifying the perceived utility of adhering to a religion determines whether the unaffiliated group will grow in a society.” This model is obviously a gross simplification but it may be accurate for short term predictions. The model predicts that over the short term religion is going to decline and I actually agree. However, over the long term the model is overly simplistic and certain to be inaccurate. For example the data I discussed in the Health and Religion thread is not included in this model and would invalidate it over a long time horizon.
1488  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do you believe in god? on: August 23, 2016, 04:04:39 PM

Hitler as Christian? That is somewhat comical considering that Hitlers plan was to destroy Christianity.

The Case Against the Nazis; How Hitler's Forces Planned To Destroy German Christianity
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/13/weekinreview/word-for-word-case-against-nazis-hitler-s-forces-planned-destroy-german.html?pagewanted=all

Quote
''The Persecution of the Christian Churches,'' summarizes the Nazi plan to subvert and destroy German Christianity, which it calls ''an integral part of the National Socialist scheme of world conquest.''

In the 1920's, as they battled for power, the Nazis realized that the churches in overwhelmingly Christian Germany needed to be neutralized before they would get anywhere. Two-thirds of German Christians were Protestants, belonging to one of 28 regional factions of the German Evangelical Church. Most of the rest were Roman Catholics. On one level, the Nazis saw an advantage. In tumultuous post-World War I Germany, the Christian churches ''had long been associated with conservative ways of thought, which meant that they tended to agree with the National Socialists in their authoritarianism, their attacks on Socialism and Communism, and in their campaign against the Versailles treaty'' that had ended World War I with a bitterly resentful Germany.

But there was a dilemma for Hitler. While conservatives, the Christian churches ''could not be reconciled with the principle of racism, with a foreign policy of unlimited aggressive warfare, or with a domestic policy involving the complete subservience of Church to State.'' Given that these were the fundamental underpinnings of the Nazi regime, ''conflict was inevitable,'' the summary states. It came, as Nazi power surged in the late 1920's toward national domination in the early 30's.

According to Baldur von Schirach, the Nazi leader of the German youth corps that would later be known as the Hitler Youth, ''the destruction of Christianity was explicitly recognized as a purpose of the National Socialist movement'' from the beginning, though ''considerations of expedience made it impossible'' for the movement to adopt this radical stance officially until it had consolidated power, the outline says.

Attracted by the strategic value inherent in the churches' ''historic mission of conservative social discipline,'' the Nazis simply lied and made deals with the churches while planning a ''slow and cautious policy of gradual encroachment'' to eliminate Christianity.

The prosecution investigators describe this as a criminal conspiracy. ''This general plan had been established even before the rise of the Nazis to power,'' the outline says. ''It apparently came out of discussions among an inner circle'' comprised of Hitler himself, other top Nazi leaders including the propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, and a collection of party enforcers and veteran beer-hall agitators.

Of course, the churches stayed in Hitler's good graces for only as long as the Nazis considered their cooperation expedient. Soon after Hitler assumed dictatorial powers, ''relations between the Nazi state and the church became progressively worse,'' the outline says. The Nazis ''took advantage of their subsequently increasing strength to violate every one of the Concordat's provisions.''

In 1937, Pope Pius XI denounced Nazi treachery in an encyclical that accused Hitler of ''a war of extermination'' against the church. The battle had been joined on some fronts. Nazi street mobs, often in the company of the Gestapo, routinely stormed offices in Protestant and Catholic churches where clergymen were seen as lax in their support of the regime.

Still, in a society where the entire Jewish population was being automatically condemned without public protest, care was taken to manipulate public perceptions about clergymen who fell into Nazi disfavor. ''The Catholic Church need not imagine that we are going to create martyrs,'' Robert Wagner, the Nazi Gauleiter of Baden, said in a speech, according to the O.S.S. study. ''We shall not give the church that satisfaction. She shall have not martyrs, but criminals.''

But once they had total power and set off to launch a world war, the Nazis made no secret of what lay in store for Christian clergymen who expressed dissent.

In Munich, Nazi street gangs and a Gestapo squad attacked the residence of the Roman Catholic cardinal. ''A hail of stones was directed against the windows, while the men shouted, 'Take the rotten traitor to Dachau!' '' the outline says, adding: ''After 1937, German Catholic bishops gave up all attempts to print'' their pastoral letters publicly and instead ''had them merely read from the pulpits.''

Then the letters themselves were confiscated. 'In many churches, the confiscation took place during Mass by the police snatching the letter out of the hands of the priests as they were in the act of reading it.''

Later the same year, dissident Protestant churches joined in a manifesto protesting Nazi tactics. In response, the Nazis arrested 700 Protestant pastors.

Objectionable statements made by the clergy would no longer be prosecuted in the courts, the Nazis said. Statements ''injurious to the State would be ruthlessly punished by 'protective custody,' that is, the concentration camp,'' the outline says.

criptix posted some links to some actual science above, however, which is much more interesting than talk of Hitler so I will look at it later today and respond with my thoughts.
1489  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do you believe in god? on: August 23, 2016, 05:32:58 AM
If man spent half the time throughout history embracing real knowledge and science that was spent quivering in fear created by ancient mythology and killing in the name of God we would already be colonizing other planets, have cured cancer and ended world hunger.

The scientific achievement you so respect can only be achieved by a society with a sound foundation.

Ethical monotheism is probably the single greatest contributor to human progress from any source since human culture emerged from the stone ages. This force which emerged first in Judaism and and spread throughout the world via the mediums of Christianity and Islam continues to shape human destiny even in a time when much of the world foolishly rejects it as irrelevant.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/mono.html
Quote from: Dennis Prager
Nature is amoral. Nature knows nothing of good and evil. In nature there is one rule—survival of the fittest. There is no right, only might. If a creature is weak, kill it. Only human beings could have moral rules such as, "If it is weak, protect it." Only human beings can feel themselves ethically obligated to strangers.
...
Nature allows you to act naturally, i.e., do only what you want you to do, without moral restraints; God does not. Nature lets you act naturally - and it is as natural to kill, rape, and enslave as it is to love.
...
One of the vital elements in the ethical monotheist revolution was its repudiation of nature as god. The evolution of civilization and morality have depended in large part on desanctifying nature.
...
Civilizations that equated gods with nature—a characteristic of all primitive societies—or that worshipped nature did not evolve.
...
Words cannot convey the magnitude of the change wrought by the Bible's introduction into the world of a God who rules the universe morally.
...
ethical monotheism suggests more than that God demands ethical behavior; it means that Gods primary demand is ethical behavior. It means that God cares about how we treat one another more than He cares about anything else.

Thus, ethical monotheism's message remains as. radical today as when it was first promulgated. The secular world has looked elsewhere for its values, while even many religious Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe that Gods primary demand is something other than ethics.


http://old.explorefaith.org/neighbors/beliefs/nature_j.html
Quote from: Howard Greenstein
To hold that God is the Source and Sustainer of moral values is to insist upon an objective status for ethical ideals. They are not the impulsive fabrication of human minds, but are grounded in the very bedrock of creation. Moral laws have objective validity similar to the laws of physics. They are not our invention, but it is for us to discover them. Just as it would be foolish to defy the law of gravity and hope to escape its consequences, so is it perilous to presume that a human infant can grow to emotional maturity without ever being loved or cared for. In both cases the penalty for ignoring the law is a natural consequence of defying the given realities of the universe. The uniqueness of God in this context is the complex but delicate blend of both physical and spiritual reality in a single deity which accounts for the balance, harmony and order of nature within us and without.

Ethical monotheism is not just a way of talking about God. It is a way of understanding human experience; it is a way of organizing the world in which we live. It is a faith that attempts to explain what we do not know by beginning with what we do know. We do know our awareness of this world is rooted in a unity of our own senses. We do know that defiance of moral law invites a disaster as devastating as any contempt for the laws of physics or chemistry or biology. We know, in short, that we cannot fathom it all and that this world is ultimately grounded in mystery. And that singular ethical mystery is what we call God

1490  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do you believe in god? on: August 23, 2016, 04:36:37 AM
The questions raised in this thread are very deep ones

1) How could God allow horrific things to occur?

2) How could we know anything at all about an infinite creator when we are finite making him incomprehensible?

These are questions who's answer requires one to delve deep into the rich intellectual history of ethical monotheism. Doing that is hard and requires significant effort and thinking. It is much easier to dismiss God as fable those seeking to learn simpletons.

Rejecting God on these grounds is committing to a foolish error akin to watching a child struggle with addition and concluding that mathematics must be useless and false.

I am far from an expert on religion but I can tell you that there is a vast and incredibly deep body of knowledge, logic and reason at the foundation of monotheism.  

For those truly interested in the topic I will share my prior recommendation. The audio recordings in the bottom link are free.

I wanted to share with anyone who is interested what I am reading at the moment. I have recently started reading the Way of God: Derech Hashem by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/087306769X/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1/159-3751462-6767111?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=NM9R7T16A9G2147WGMJX&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_i=1598264672

It is an older classic 18th century philosophical book. It is very logical and is set out in parts that are divided into a few chapters. The parts are:
1. Fundamentals, covering The Creator, Man, Human Responsibility.
2. Providence, covering Providence in General, Individual Providence, How Providence Works.
3. The Soul, Inspiration and Prophecy, with The Soul and Its Influence, Theurgy, The Prophetic Experience.
4. Serving God, Love and Fear of God, Prayer, Seasonal Commandments.

There is a free class in Seattle that is currently going through this book chapter by chapter taught by Mark Spiro.
Geography unfortunately prevents me from attending his class but audio recordings of it and discussions of each chapter are available for free here.

http://www.livingjudaism.com/the-way-of-god.html



Both Moshe Chaim Luzzatto and Mark Spiro approach the issue from the Jewish tradition but I think anyone interested in God or religion will find it worthwhile. I do and I am not Jewish.
1491  Economy / Economics / Re: Economic Totalitarianism on: August 22, 2016, 04:21:24 PM
Our Society Is Sick, Our Economy Exploitive, & Our Politics Corrupt

Quote from: Charles Hugh-Smith
Any society that tolerates this systemic exploitation and corruption as "business as usual" is not just sick--it's hopeless.

In noting that our society is sick, our economy exploitive and our politics corrupt, I'm not saying anything you didn't already know. Everyone who isn't being paid to deny the obvious in public (while fuming helplessly about the phony cheerleading in private) knows that our society is a layer-cake of pathologies, our economy little more than institutionalized racketeering and our politics a corrupt auction-house of pay-for-play, influence-peddling, money-grubbing and brazen pandering for votes.

The fantasy promoted by do-gooders and PR hacks alike is that this corrupt system can be reformed with a few minor policy tweaks. If you want a brief but thorough explanation of Why Our Status Quo Failed and Is Beyond Reform, please take a look at my book (link above).

If you want an example of how the status quo has failed and is beyond reform, it's instructive to examine the pharmaceutical industry, which includes biotech corporations, specialty pharmaceutical firms and the global corporate giants known as Big Pharma.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-22/our-society-sick-our-economy-exploitive-our-politics-corrupt
1492  Economy / Economics / Re: Economic Devastation on: August 22, 2016, 04:13:29 PM
It was one of our founding fathers (USA) that said words to the effect of that our country could only remain free if we were a "moral people".


"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

“Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks, no form of government, can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men; so that we do not depend upon their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.” - James Madison


“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” - George Washington


Quote from: Earl Taylor
Modern Americans have long since forgotten the heated and sometimes violent debates which took place in the thirteen colonies between 1775 and 1776 over the issue of morality. For many thousands of Americans the big question of independence hung precariously on the single, slender thread of whether or not the people were sufficiently “virtuous and moral” to govern themselves. Self-government was generally referred to as “republicanism,” and it was universally acknowledged that a corrupt and selfish people could never make the principles of republicanism operate successfully.

https://nccs.net/2015-03-only-a-virtuous-people-are-capable-of-freedom
1493  Economy / Economics / Re: Economic Devastation on: August 21, 2016, 10:48:56 PM
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/tozer/5j00.0010/5j00.0010.11.htm

"I am among those who believe that our Western civilization is on its way to perishing. It has many commendable qualities, most of which it has borrowed from the Christian ethic, but it lacks the element of moral wisdom that would give it permanence. Future historians will record that we of the twentieth century had intelligence enough to create a great civilization but not the moral wisdom to preserve it.

...

Sin is always an act of wrong judgment. To commit a sin a man must for the moment believe that things are different from what they really are; he must confound values; he must see the moral universe out of focus; he must accept a lie as truth and see truth as a lie; he must ignore the signs on the highway and drive with his eyes shut; he must act as if he had no soul and was not accountable for his moral choices.

Sin is never a thing to be proud of. No act is wise that ignores remote consequences, and sin always does. Sin sees only today, or at most tomorrow; never the day after tomorrow, next month or next year. Death and judgment are pushed aside as if they did not exist."

-A.W. Tozer 1897-1963
1494  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: August 21, 2016, 10:47:08 PM
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/tozer/5j00.0010/5j00.0010.11.htm

"I am among those who believe that our Western civilization is on its way to perishing. It has many commendable qualities, most of which it has borrowed from the Christian ethic, but it lacks the element of moral wisdom that would give it permanence. Future historians will record that we of the twentieth century had intelligence enough to create a great civilization but not the moral wisdom to preserve it.

...

Sin is always an act of wrong judgment. To commit a sin a man must for the moment believe that things are different from what they really are; he must confound values; he must see the moral universe out of focus; he must accept a lie as truth and see truth as a lie; he must ignore the signs on the highway and drive with his eyes shut; he must act as if he had no soul and was not accountable for his moral choices.

Sin is never a thing to be proud of. No act is wise that ignores remote consequences, and sin always does. Sin sees only today, or at most tomorrow; never the day after tomorrow, next month or next year. Death and judgment are pushed aside as if they did not exist."

-A.W. Tozer 1897-1963
1495  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: August 19, 2016, 08:39:38 PM
You are wrong. ALL laws and things are determined and fixed. There is no such thing as chance. There is only ignorance of the operations of the universe because of our extremely limited abilities.

For example. When a leaf on a tree is swaying and turning in the breeze, why is it moving as it is? There are billions of molecules of air bumping against the leaf (and each other) in ways that make the leaf move. There are billions of tiny heat energy waves playing on the molecules of air and on the leaf in billions of patterns. How many of these molecules and heat waves can we track to determine how they are working on the leaf and why they are working like they are? Exactly zero! Yet they all work perfectly, according to fixed laws of the universe. Everything in the universe works the same - cause and effect. Yet we understand and track such a small amount of it that we really don't understand the whys and wherefores of anything.

The closest we come to chance is when God goes back to the beginning, and tweaks some of the way He set up cause and effect laws in creation. And He does this to match the faith that people have in Him (or against Him), all according to the purposes He has for making the universe in the first place.

Cool

Maybe, but maybe not. Such a line of reasoning tends to lead one to a view of the universe that is entirely mechanistic and that humans have no free will only the illusion of choice. I do not believe this to be the case. My senses and my experience tells me that I have free will and the ability to shape myself and my destiny. There is much we do not understand about ourselves especially about consciousness. Since we have little to no comprehension of how our own awareness functions we cannot say that such an awareness is bound by cause and effect.

I have provided metaphysics that define what is necessary for free will Kant's noumenal self outside of time. Such a self is free because it is causally undetermined.

I have provided information on emperic and reproducable scientific experiments. Delayed choice quantum eraser experiments show that quantum phenomona can operate outside of what we traditionally think of as time and causal sequence.

I have provided robust scientific theory (Orch objective reduction) that argues consciousness is grounded in these same quantum phenomona that have been shown to operate outside of traditional time and causality.

Obviously from my stated conclusion I believe the Orch OR theory to be true. However this is not a question of metaphysics but one of science.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064513001188
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the Orch OR scheme has so far stood the test of time better than most other schemes, and it is particularly distinguished from other proposals by the many scientifically tested, and potentially testable, ingredients that it depends upon.

From this one can conclude that current emperic scientific theory supports the existance of Kant's noumenal self which is required for free will. Free will is thus entirely consistent with modern science and undeniably possible. If Orch OR theory holds up under further and in depth emperic testing I would argue that free will becomes overwhelmingly probable.


Delayed choice quantum eraser experiments tell us that certain quantum phenomena operate outside of what we traditionally think of as time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser

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Delayed choice experiments raise questions about time and time sequences, and thereby bring our usual ideas of time and causal sequence into question.[note 1] If events at D1, D2, D3, D4 determine outcomes at D0, then effect seems to precede cause. If the idler light paths were greatly extended so that a year goes by before a photon shows up at D1, D2, D3, or D4, then when a photon shows up in one of these detectors, it would cause a signal photon to have shown up in a certain mode a year earlier. Alternatively, knowledge of the future fate of the idler photon would determine the activity of the signal photon in its own present. Neither of these ideas conforms to the usual human expectation of causality.

• Orch OR theory posits that conscious arises from quantum computations in brain microtubules.
• As noted by Kant in his model of a noumenal self free will requires a true self that is independent of time.
• Grounding consciousness in quantum mechanics provides this independence.
 

Consciousness in the universe: A review of the ‘Orch OR’ theory
By Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064513001188

Highlights
• The Orch OR theory proposes quantum computations in brain microtubules account for consciousness.
• Microtubule ‘quantum channels’ in which anesthetics erase consciousness are identified.
• Evidence for warm quantum vibrations in brain microtubules is cited.
• Interference of microtubule vibrations are ‘beat frequencies’ seen as EEG.
• Orch OR links consciousness to processes in fundamental space–time geometry.

Abstract
The nature of consciousness, the mechanism by which it occurs in the brain, and its ultimate place in the universe are unknown. We proposed in the mid 1990's that consciousness depends on biologically ‘orchestrated’ coherent quantum processes in collections of microtubules within brain neurons, that these quantum processes correlate with, and regulate, neuronal synaptic and membrane activity, and that the continuous Schrödinger evolution of each such process terminates in accordance with the specific Diósi–Penrose (DP) scheme of ‘objective reduction’ (‘OR’) of the quantum state. This orchestrated OR activity (‘Orch OR’) is taken to result in moments of conscious awareness and/or choice. The DP form of OR is related to the fundamentals of quantum mechanics and space–time geometry, so Orch OR suggests that there is a connection between the brain's biomolecular processes and the basic structure of the universe. Here we review Orch OR in light of criticisms and developments in quantum biology, neuroscience, physics and cosmology. We also introduce a novel suggestion of ‘beat frequencies’ of faster microtubule vibrations as a possible source of the observed electro-encephalographic (‘EEG’) correlates of consciousness. We conclude that consciousness plays an intrinsic role in the universe.


    

1496  Economy / Economics / Re: Economic Totalitarianism on: August 19, 2016, 12:44:58 PM

Compare that to

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/olympic-gold-medals-come-with-big-cash----if-youre-from-one-of-these-countries-2016-08-10

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When swimmer Joseph Schooling edged out Michael Phelps and a tight field in the 100-meter butterfly event on Friday night, he became the first athlete from Singapore to win a gold medal -- and he will be the first to earn the country’s $753,000 gold-medal bonus. That’s nearly 30 times more money than Michael Phelps or any other U.S. athlete would take home for winning gold.

Now Singapore does have an income tax which I assume this will be subject to but it tops out at 20%
1497  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: August 19, 2016, 01:01:54 AM
I wanted to share with anyone who is interested what I am reading at the moment. I have recently started reading the Way of God: Derech Hashem by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/087306769X/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1/159-3751462-6767111?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=NM9R7T16A9G2147WGMJX&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_i=1598264672

It is an older classic 18th century philosophical book. It is very logical and is set out in parts that are divided into a few chapters. The parts are:
1. Fundamentals, covering The Creator, Man, Human Responsibility.
2. Providence, covering Providence in General, Individual Providence, How Providence Works.
3. The Soul, Inspiration and Prophecy, with The Soul and Its Influence, Theurgy, The Prophetic Experience.
4. Serving God, Love and Fear of God, Prayer, Seasonal Commandments.

There is a free class in Seattle that is currently going through this book chapter by chapter taught by Mark Spiro.
Geography unfortunately prevents me from attending his class but audio recordings of it and discussions of each chapter are available for free here.

http://www.livingjudaism.com/the-way-of-god.html



Both Moshe Chaim Luzzatto and Mark Spiro approach the issue from the Jewish tradition but I think anyone interested in God or religion will find it worthwhile. I do and I am not Jewish.
1498  Economy / Economics / Re: Economic Devastation on: August 16, 2016, 11:08:53 PM
Well that's Zerohedge. Nothing new under the sun. I have to warn you, though: reading too much Zerohedge might end up with you building a nuclear fallout shelter in your garden.

 Cheesy long on shovels and cement.

They say even a stopped watch is correct twice a day. The challenge as always is figuring out exactly when that is.

As my expertise in such predictions is limited I have adopted a relatively simple strategy of dividing my resources between gold, bitcoin, and debt payments at a fixed ratio. A strategy of minimal regret if you will.
1499  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Health and Religion on: August 16, 2016, 04:28:13 PM
there is no intrinsic value, and therefore valuing is required as a finite process among other, succeptible to context and change, and because of that capable of progressing.

So you conclude "there may be value depending on the context"; if this is so, then only one who has educated oneself about the entire diversity of contexts and the whole of history can say that he has the correct "finite process" for valuation. So this path to knowledge obviously involves learning about the other worlds and those rational beings of a different and higher kind. You also would eventually have to realize that the world in which we live is not the only one in which we shall live or have lived, and that there are contexts presently unknown to you. This very line of reasoning denies humanism, and it is a problem for the nihilist because according to secular scholars, "all rational atheists are humanists" (unless you are some oddball French philosopher from the 20th century). The nihilist needs a wide diversity of contexts in order to have a complete glimpse into the valuation problem, therefore any educated discussion of these contexts will turn to the subject of extraterrestrials, etheric beings, and the like.

I think that your version of nihilism is nothing new;
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In place of the old morality, we will get the new morality-one that's more relevant-namely that "nothing is real except our world of desires and passions," as Friedrich Nietzsche phrased it in his book Beyond Good and Evil. Formally, this philosophy is not called pluralism, but secular humanism. The problem Christians have with secular humanism is not that it is truly pluralistic, but that it subjects man to the sentimentality and enthusiasms of the moment. Indeed, history has shown that secular humanism - the view that man is the sole judge of the world, including morality, the shape of society, and the value of the individual - is very bad for humanity.

The assumption that is required in your argument is that human knowledge of value can progress, but this is dependent on humanism, the idea that man is the sole judge of all things.

How can you say that man's knowledge of value can progress unless man himself is the judge of that progress?

In another context, man may find himself giving up those values that were (somehow) discerned ex-nihilo and instead return his free will to GOD and live by faith according to the rules given unto mankind for the total transformation of the species (true progress).

The full context of man's existence provides a solid case for rejecting humanism, and I have made it quite a bit stronger by providing you these two valuable links above. Both the educated thinker and the mystic would say that it is MAN who has no unity within himself, and not the world.

To take values as fixed, therefore only blocks the potential progress of values and robs them of their rational basis, that they always possess in some form. It doesn't even mean there isn't an objective basis of values, just that they aren't inherent to mere objectivity itself. As an analogy, we can take mathematics, that has an objective basis, yet isn't inherent in things themselves, but has to be created in order to describe them.
It is good that you bring up the rational basis of values in the context of objectivity; one philosopher has said:

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Thinking is man’s only basic virtue, from which all the others proceed. And his basic vice, the source of all his evils, is that nameless act which all of you practice, but struggle never to admit: the act of blanking out, the willful suspension of one’s consciousness, the refusal to think—not blindness, but the refusal to see; not ignorance, but the refusal to know. It is the act of unfocusing your mind and inducing an inner fog to escape the responsibility of judgment—on the unstated premise that a thing will not exist if only you refuse to identify it, that A will not be A so long as you do not pronounce the verdict “It is.” Non-thinking is an act of annihilation, a wish to negate existence, an attempt to wipe out reality. But existence exists; reality is not to be wiped out, it will merely wipe out the wiper. By refusing to say “It is,” you are refusing to say “I am.” By suspending your judgment, you are negating your person. When a man declares: “Who am I to know?” he is declaring: “Who am I to live?”

Since values have a rational basis, it is sensible to ground our highest virtue in thinking, and the highest evil would be to refuse to know about other contexts of knowledge and values; therefore, only a sufficiently diverse education can allow the potential for the progress of values.

An very well written reply qwik2learn. I agree with the logic you have presented above. Hopefully nihilnegativum will return as this has been an interesting debate.
1500  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: BitGo, Coinbase Vaut or Paper Wallet for secure long term storage on: August 15, 2016, 03:48:09 PM
You can laminate your paper wallets, this way it can last longer and only theft or a fire is a issue. The trezor comes with paper sheet where you write your 24 words seed to recover your trezor wallet anytime if your trezor become damaged or lost. If you have spare 1/8 BTC for the trezor, buy it. If not, laminated paper wallets is good option as well.

Lamination does not preserve paper.

http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~george/preserving_photos.html

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Archivists have discovered the hard way that using ordinary lamination plastic for old documents, newspapers, photos, etc., does not preserve them.  The best way to preserve them is to store them in a dark place after placing in acid-free Mylar film (not laminated).  Ordinary lamination material still permits light rays to pass through it and to cause a chemical reaction to the acid that most modern paper and modern dyes contain, and that ALL old documents photos contain.  This causes deterioration of paper and fading of the paper and print.  The heat and pressure of most lamination processes also damages documents.

Of course, keeping original documents is important, but one should always copy (scan) newspapers and other documents and then print them on acid free paper, which can be found at just about all stores selling printer paper and/or computer supplies.  Too, one should save the graphics files from scanned documents and put the files on CDs for permanent safekeeping.  Life expectancy for data on CDs is 80-100 years for premium quality CDs.

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