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1721  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] AIRcoin on: April 21, 2014, 02:06:32 AM
One problem with their business model is that we may be on the cusp of an enormous backlash against HFT in traditional markets which will probably spread to crypto's
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-20/obituary-high-frequency-trading-adaptive-genius-rigged-markets

Though as there is a strong lack of visibility into crypto exchanges that might not worry them
1722  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 21, 2014, 01:40:07 AM
Bitcoin lacks fungibility, that is a major issue with it as a currency.   Why do you think that things like colored coins can exist?   The blockchain is public and all transactions are public.   Inside an exchange many off the block transactions are done for speed and other reasons but that isn't the same as being "entirely fungible".   Besides fungibiltiy doesn't have anything to do with short selling.
Your coins inside an exchange are entirely fungible. If you withdraw coins do you really think you get the same coins back.  Grin Bitcoins as a currency are fungible.
Why do you think there was such a big issue with the recent USA tax interpretation, that indicated Bitcoins were to be treated as property?
Because this made them non-fungible for tax purposes.
Fungibility has everything to do with short selling, because you don't buy back the exact same coins or stocks or metal that you sell. You don't get the same dollar out of the bank that you deposit.

I'm going to put you on ignore friend, as this is becoming a waste of time.

1723  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] AIRcoin on: April 21, 2014, 12:25:43 AM
So, has anyone heard anything at all from the developers? Huh
1724  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 11:58:52 PM
Excuse me, I've short sold many times.   I think I understand it very well.   Have you actually ever short sold anything?   Short selling requires borrowing the asset and selling that, then you pay interest on that borrowing and pay back with the asset.   It is pretty simple.   There isn't any gaining title to the asset you sell, at least not with stocks or contracts so I don't see how it is any different with a crypto currency.  
No you are wrong. When you borrow a stock to sell it short you have title to the stock. You may not know this as all you have been doing is executing the sale. A whole lot more is happening in the back office of the organization you are dealing with.
You may think you "know it well', but you're only familiar with what is happening on the surface, not in the back office, where things are reconciled.

Now, large firms may not follow this procedure as, for them, but not for you, it has been a grey area legally. And depending which country you are in the regulators may not have caught up fully yet. though it's been a big area of focus the last few years.

But..without digressing too much, this is different to crypto currencies because of the nature of them. By the nature of the blockchain itself.
But in short, when you deposit your coins with an exchange (or most anyway), they can pretty much do what they like with them. Some go into eh hot wallet. They are no longer yours. this is why "hackers" (not really hackers) were able to to steal coins from several exchanges, out of the "hot wallets".

As the coins are entirely fungible, you just get an equal amount of coins back if you withdraw.

Now because, you as the "owner" of the coins have never entered into a loan agreement, you imagine you still own your coins and can sell them at will. But you can't necessarily. You are relying on a "trusted third party" to not stuff things up.
If the exchange loaned out coins, which were then shortsold then obviously everyone cant sell or withdraw their coins.
But that, my friend, is just one of the problems.
This is a market manipulators dream  Smiley
Imagine being the only person or organisation who was able to short sell a particular crypto currency. Bad news comes out and you have no competition. Everyone one else is either long or square.

And yes, I have probably done hundreds of thousands of short sales, as I have worked professionally in that business for many years. I'm very familiar with market making, short selling etc...

What I'm concerned about is exchanges and trading firms destroying and profiting from what I think is a tremendous community based project. I don't think they really have the crypto community at heart most of the time

Added in edit: I should have added that the gold market in the west is a notable exception where shorting is concerned, but that is hardly a model that should be emulated.
1725  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 08:53:12 PM
Short selling is fine as far as backed with real coins.
It's fine if there is a level playing field. What I'm suggesting is there is not one.
Secondly I'm sure you can imagine the potential problems if title is not granted when coins are short sold..
 
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Btw apart BTCe which exchanges openly allow short selling?
I don't know. Do you think they will tell you if they are letting people sell your coins?
I'm suggesting it is happening because there is no rational for bots to keep pressuring prices down unless they are short. The way these bots are operating (at times) is the same MO as bots that are designed to see how low they can get the price of this or that financial instrument.
You just have watch the price action.
If you offer to sell they immediately jump in front. I you buy the price up a little, they immediately (and I mean immediately) tick the price down lower. They fill the screen with tiny sell orders. They continually sell small amounts as low as they can.

There is only one strategy this type of algorithm fits. Its the way computer trading systems are programmed to act when they are short. Not at any other time.
1726  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 08:48:05 PM
  Just because you don't understand how it works, doesn't make it a scam.    
I understand how it works. though I'm not sure you are too familiar with it.
Normally the short seller will have to gain title to the instrument before they can short sell.
Obviously this would not be the case on crypto exchanges.  This is a HUGE difference. Do you understand that?
What I am concerned about is back door deals done by exchanges which allow certain participants to short sell using algorithmic trading systems.
Most people trading on crypto exchanges are "small fis" so it's quite easy for someone with deeper pockets to manipulate the markets.

It's a little naive to think these guys are helping you or even neutral participants.
1727  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 08:37:14 PM
No difference IRL. If you hold your money in a bank account, do you really think they keep it safe?
Banks are your friend too. Just ask them.  Grin
I;ve never seen anyone claim a practice was good and fair because it's just like a bank.  Grin
1728  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 08:30:48 PM
If you bought BTC at $1200, then that was your choice.   It is your problem.   It isn't the market's problem.  
If you don't mind exchanges allowing other people to sell your bitcoins, then good for you. I suspect others would be concerned.
First you say the market makers get to sell their bitcoins
No I never claimed this[/quote]
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instead of the someone on the exchange
You'll have to reword this it makes no sense
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and now are saying the exchange would sell your bitcoins.  You seem confused.      
No, you are still not getting it. I never said the exchange sells anything.

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The fact is short selling isn't anything new and it is a normal part of most markets
. Did I say it was new?
Quote
Just because you don't understand how it works, doesn't make it a scam.   If you short sell something you have to cover it at some point and it can be highly risky for the short seller.  
Like I said, no one would randomly short sell anything. Bad news comes out, they can short sell but you cant. They win and the holders lose.
1729  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 10:50:11 AM
If you bought BTC at $1200, then that was your choice.   It is your problem.   It isn't the market's problem.  
If you don't mind exchanges allowing other people to sell your bitcoins, then good for you. Do you really think it is Ok for an exchange to let someone else sell your Bitcoins?
1730  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 10:38:06 AM
You would only lose if you sell.   You aren't making any sense.
Not everyone who bought BTC at $1200 USD has the luxury of being able to hold it. Most ordinary people, at some point have to sell. If you have so much money that you never have to sell, but can sit on losing positions for years if necessary, then you are part of a small minority
1731  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 10:34:14 AM
So how are market makers that provide liquidity are hurting the community? 
What is finally coming to light, following the release of Michael Lewis's latest book is that algorithmic traders aren't your friend. They never intend to add liquidity. They are predators
1732  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 10:31:56 AM
They cannot dictate the price the trader is. If they short sell there is a possibility they will also lose.
True....but algorithmic trading is quite mature now. They don't do it all the time. They have studied markets in depth for years, they know when to act.
So when China makes a negative statement about BTC....they can laugh and sell short. All the BTC  holders lose, and they win.
1733  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Selling short ...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 10:29:04 AM
Perhaops the biggest scam of all happening every day is exchanges allowing "market makers" to sell you coins in the hope of buying them back cheaper. If a value of a coin falls hundreds maybe thousands of people in the community lose, but one or a small handful make money.

Exchange owners  allow "market makers", special privileges on their sites. These would include small or no fees and the ability to sell your coins out of the "hot wallet", hoping to buy them back cheaper..
 There are at least 6 of these market making operations globally, who enjoy these special privileges. This came to light if it wasn't known before when an bitcoin company made a back door listing on the Australian Securities exchange. As a listing requirement they had to disclose the particulars of their business which included short selling crypto currencies.3. Exchange owners win, market making firms win, and the community loses.

You will see thins in various markets where "bots", computer trading systems try to drive down the price after already having sold short coins from the "hot wallet".

If this is not in our interest we need to stand up to them

interesting... so what is your source of proof?
The only proof I have so far , and I can quote the ASX release when i get back to work (as these disclosures don't seem to be on the website), is that DigitalBtC had to disclose their business practices, which included short selling bitcoin and others coins. So I'd say they must be doing it from the hot wallet with the blessing of the exchange.
The thing that made me think about it was watching a bot pressure down the price of a coin. There is no rationale to design a program that does that unless you are "short". You don't design a program to push the price down if you are a holder.

As we have seen recently in the press with the release of Michael Lewis's new book, greedy exchanges are all too willing to accommodate predatory trading firms, and with cryptos being unregulated we should expect the same greediness and feigned naivety
1734  Economy / Scam Accusations / Selling short in an exchange...the biggest scam of all on: April 20, 2014, 10:01:24 AM
Perhaps the biggest scam of all; happening every day, is exchanges allowing "market makers" to sell you coins in the hope of buying them back cheaper. If a value of a coin falls hundreds maybe thousands of people in the community lose, but one or a small handful make money.

Exchange owners  allow "market makers", special privileges on their sites. These would include small or no fees and the ability to sell your coins out of the "hot wallet", hoping to buy them back cheaper..
 There are at least 6 of these market making operations globally, who enjoy these special privileges. This came to light if it wasn't known before when an bitcoin company made a back door listing on the Australian Securities exchange. As a listing requirement they had to disclose the particulars of their business which included short selling crypto currencies.3. Exchange owners win, market making firms win, and the community loses.

You will see thins in various markets where "bots", computer trading systems try to drive down the price after already having sold short coins from the "hot wallet".

If this is not in our interest we need to stand up to them
1735  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 19, 2014, 10:00:27 PM
Maybe you're new around here? It was caused by a bug, here's the full story: https://www.darkcointalk.org/threads/the-birth-of-darkcoin.162/
I'm new around here, so thank you.
1736  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: ★[ANN] Australia Coin AUS -EXCHANGES -COIN CONTROL- on: April 19, 2014, 09:56:17 PM
No evidence, lol, we don't need evidence,
Grin
1737  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 19, 2014, 11:38:57 AM
To anyone worried about the price going UP and quickly down back to 0.0014-0.0015, it's normal, the volume and demand is not enough to make it go higher than 0.0025 for too long yet.

It's very easy to make it fall back with only 3k or 4k DRK, because there are so many people trying to create FUD around this coin that every time the prices goes a bit up, weak hands quickly dump, and the volume and demand is not enough to rebuy those and keep the raise, only a few thousands coins make it drop back to the 0.0014 area.

I mentioned it the other day that a correction is possible (and desirable for those complaining they want back in because they sold) because the sweeping of the orderbook was not accompanied by pump-level volumes associated with other coins. It was mostly small orders.

There's also the trading factor: There are short-term traders who spot the declining charts of altcoins and invest in coins that have gone too low for their usual levels. They buy and then sell back at +10/20-30% etc. It's not inconceivable that people who bought at 0.0012 sold at 0.0015-23 for a good profit.


True...here is a question for you all.  Larger exchanges allow "market makers" in. They allow trading firms to "make markets". They probably give them a good deal on fees.
Is it possible that they would allow these firms to sell short, using other peoples coins that were held in the hot wallet?
1738  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 19, 2014, 09:12:27 AM
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there is no coin with a fair distribution
yeah. you tell yourself that.
there are coins with only 0.2% premined.
not like 50% instamined dark coins (50% of in circulation)
also very rarely devs decrease the number of coins just to increase the value of their already-high-number-of-coins.
A Darkcoin clone with a different distribution may do better.
1739  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 19, 2014, 09:10:10 AM
Are people required by law to post pointless whining/bragging on the forums? If you think DRK is so horrible, or you don't like the current price, or you bought some blackcoin right before it exploded in value... go snapchat it to your friends or something, nobody on the forum wants to hear about it.
As a Darkcoin holder, I'd like to hear all points of view.
1740  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DRK] DarkCoin | First Anonymous Coin | First X11 | First DGW | ASIC Resistant on: April 19, 2014, 09:09:21 AM
Guys please investigate and do some research before you post, look at the wallet distribution. Only the top accounts have a lot of coins. Which includes those of tradingplatforms. After the top 10 wallets, the next wallets have considerable less coins. Compare to any other altcoin distribution over wallets outstanding is much fairer.

Those huge wallets that supposedly belong to exchanges mean that there are lots of coins hanging there ready to be sold.
If the large holders are keeping their coins in exchanges , then it probably means they want to be able to sell them.
How much of the large holdings are in exchanges
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