Au contraire mon frere. You wanted to get back on to the thread's topic. I asked for proof that that as a class atheists hate all religions, since that what the thread title asks. If we're not getting anywhere its only because you *dont* want to get the thread back on topic.
There you go again, with your standard old deception.  Deception? You were the one to want to get back on topic: Actually, it is your challenge that changes the subject. The on-topic part that I was doing was to show why atheists hate religion. You and your challenges without doing your research, shows how you would rather change the subject so that we move away from the proof that God exists, and away from showing atheists why they hate religion... which is... because religion is right, and not even atheists like being proven wrong. The topic is: Why do Atheists hate Religion? I asked: What proof is there that this is true? What is deceptive? Pots and kettles, buddy. Well, I should probably be thanking you for focusing on me rather than how science proves God exits. But what else can you do? since you can't refute the science. So, thanks for helping to validate the science by showing folks how you can't refute it. What else can I do? I can try to keep your wandering mind on topic. What proof is there that Atheists hate Religion? That is part of the point. Many atheists don't hate religion. These are the ones who barely consider their atheism. The atheists who hate religion are far more atheistic than the ones who barely consider atheism. Both of them have their religion. Those of them who hate religion, are far more into the religion of atheism than those who don't. They are also far more into hating themselves. "Leave me alone," they say. "Let me squander the little bit of life I have, before I wind up destroying myself completely, just to get away from the religion that I am." "more atheistic"? Can a person believe more or less that there is no God? I would say it's an absolute fact. It is or it is not. And yes. You don't see me stopping you on the street to ask you if you have a moment for me to "talk about our Dark Lord Darth Vader and His doctrine". Exactly. Leave us alone, and in turn we'll leave you do to as you wish in your misguided notions, as long as you don't bother anyone. But seeing as how you insist your ideas upon us, that's just not right. |
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You asked if I would start a war against religion because you mentioned faith. I wrote I have no problem with faith, only with your characterisation of science. Now you write "Of course you have a problem: you have no Faith!". This is meaningless, unless you think that science == faith, which as I explained to you before is a contradiction in terms.
Now it is you who is talking without thinking. Science DOES equal faith in all sorts of ways. What scientist would look for some aspect of science if he didn't have faith that it could be found? Of course the scientist doesn't have faith an answer can be found, she has hopes and expectations. If she had faith, she wouldn't bother looking. Who would ever formulate scientific theories if he didn't have faith that they might be able to be proven?
Every scientist I've ever met. or if he didn't have faith that his theories would help him prove other things in science? or if he didn't have faith that his peer review would earn him status or money somehow? Most of science absolutely does equal faith. Again, no. Maybe some scientists have faith they will find what they're looking for, but I've never met them. They all hope to make discoveries, but none of them are arrogant enough to have faith that they'll be the ones to do it. Exactly. I think people mistake faith and hope. Which are not the same thing. |
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You know, maybe you're an atheist, but you're truly devoted to your fight against religion, no doubt about that. Cause spending so much energy on a debate with someone obviously disagreeing fundamentally with you is close to faith you know?
What I care about is wooly thinking and people who try to deceive others by presenting logical fallacies as a real argument. Whether that's by someone who is religious or atheist or a sheep shagger, I care not. If spending energy on a discussion is a religion, then logic is my religion and my God is maths, and people who make illogical or purposely misleading arguments are sinners who offend my religious sensibilities. Lol. I didn't want to talk about religion but more about the fact that you truly have faith in your opponents to maybe one day change their opinion. Which they won't obviously. I continue the discussion for readers who might be mislead by people who have an agenda. I have no hope whatsoever of changing BADecker mind, or whatever BitNow uses to do his thinking, but I do hope that I can reveal their arguments to be the unsupportable opinions they are. Oh, this is so rare.  "I continue the discussion for readers who might be mislead by people who have an agenda." Translation. "I continue the discussion for readers who might be mislead by myself and my agenda." "I have no hope whatsoever of changing BADecker mind, or whatever BitNow uses to do his thinking..." Translation. "Badecker and BitNow are two people I won't be able to mislead by my agenda." "...but I do hope that I can reveal their arguments to be the unsupportable opinions they are." Translation. "But I hope that I can change the focus of other people by calling their facts opinions." +1 But I don't think they're are any logical fallacies in BADecker words. It's just that there is no logic at all that's all. Everything is fine until you corner him somewhere and he just ignores parts of your arguments that he can't deal with  When he is trying to argue, the arguments regularly contain excluded middles, ad-hominem attacks and strawman arguments. Logic goes out the window only when that is pointed out to him. Well, thank you again for showing us that the only thing you express about science proving the existence of God, is ad-hominem attacks in subtle form. If you really believed that science didn't prove the existence of God in the ways that I have said, you would have provided some kind of scientific explanation or evidence backing beliefs up. Rather, you continually focus on me, and attempt to turn the science I use into, simply, my opinions. Thank you for helping to confirm the science I express, by showing over and over again that you are unable to refute it. And thank you for making the confirmation even stronger, by using subtle ad-hominem attacks on me, thereby proving that you have no other capability. The existence of God is a problem of Faith: you have it or you don't have it. Use it wisely. Best regards. Well that seems to have solved it. So it seems we don't have it, ergo God doesn't exist. |
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I have no problem with faith. It's only when you try to present science as faith that I have a problem.
Of course you have a problem: you have no Faith!Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.You are trying to get Science without Wisdom: there is no Science in stupidity, you need to find Wisdom!Wisdom comes from fearing the Lord so you need to start to have Faith. I have no need to start a war against anything, but if I ever do I know just the wannabe genocidal maniac to get in touch with.
Instead arguing: starts to have Faith and you will find Wisdom and hence Science. For any doubt or information feel free to ask. Best regards. It's like you're typing words without thinking. Your arguments make no sense. |
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I proved that atheists hate religion, back on page 180/190.
Atheists hate religion because:
1. Atheism is a capital sin
1.1. Sin of idolatry (1st commandement - "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" Ex 20:3)
1.2. Punishment for idolatry is death (Golden Calf episode Ex 32:4)
2. You cannot love someone that want you dead.
(1) and (2) forms the thesis "atheists hate Religion".
Can you love your enemy organofcorti?
How can you hate something you don't believe in? An atheist can't hate God because God doesn't exist... Atheists love you, or they wouldn't spend so much time trying to educate you... I'm sorry you are so blinded by your faith that you cannot see reason... perhaps some day you will join us When an atheist says he doesn't believe in God, he is lying, even though he may not know it. That makes no sense. Please do have some reason. Come on what does that even mean? |
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Very simple but also very untrue. The basis of science is the scientific method, which is a way of observing the world, making hypotheses about the world and testing them. In science, nothing is taken on faith. If we have observations contrary to even a well established and long tested theory, then nothing is unquestionable.
Of course: if you destroy my Faith then nothing is unquestionable. I just pointed out that your concept of science was incorrect, that's all. You probably meant "theology" rather than "science". How can I meant something profound if I'm not wise? Well, you have me there. It's quite a puzzler, all right. Wisdom comes from Fearing the Lord. Thank You for destroying my Faith, sinner!
Best regards.
As much as I'd like to take the credit for that, I haven't destroyed anyone's anything. Faith doesn't need science. Only someone whose faith was weak would need science to prop it up. You are talking about yourself of course: you have no Faith!
Best regards.
Do you really just do a "no, you are!" post? How old are you? To answer your question though, no, I was talking about you. You wrote: Philosophy is lead by Reason (man), Science by Faith (God).
You need science to prop up your faith in God. Christians I know have a very strong faith in God, without any need for science. I find your lack of faith disturbing. Star Wars reference! That's it! +1!! Man, I haven't laughed like this in a long time. Thank you! |
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My Responsability is Faith.
Taking responsibilities means being a man.
Does anybody hate that?
Best regards.
Yeah - it's just that you're not a man are you? You're a girl. So either take it like a man or shut up. Too funny. |
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Very simple but also very untrue. The basis of science is the scientific method, which is a way of observing the world, making hypotheses about the world and testing them. In science, nothing is taken on faith. If we have observations contrary to even a well established and long tested theory, then nothing is unquestionable.
Of course: if you destroy my Faith then nothing is unquestionable. Thank You for destroying my Faith, sinner! Best regards. LOL, that was easy! Faith already destroyed? You should change your username to organofcorti-theDestroyer |
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Quoting myself (in 01/2016) I don't even pretend to understand that last comment, but all I'm doing is attempting to have a debate with you. All you're doing is avoiding making sense. I have to wonder why? Are you a secret atheist trying to make religious people look disingenuous?
Mathematics is Science is not Logic: I'm not argumenting, I'm saying.
Philosophy is lead by Reason (man), Science by Faith (God).
That is very simple: simple as the idiocy of this argument.
THIS ARGUMENT IS IDIOT BECAUSE YOU NEED WISDOM TO GET OUT OF IDIOCY: WISDOM COMES FROM FEARING THE LORD. " The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility." - Pro 15:33 Best regards. I feel the need to intervene, even if a little late: child, the way you write makes no sense. Also don't call people idiots. It's really not cool. |
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...omissis...
Those statements are all completely unsupported. There is no proof -- certainly none posted by you, that atheists hate religions -- just more of the same unsubstantiated and unsupportable arguments that you consistently make.
If I'm wrong, please prove that as a class atheists hate all religions. No one has yet proved that. Religious people hate other religious people, that is clear.
I proved that atheists hate religion, back on page 180/190.Atheists hate religion because: 1. Atheism is a capital sin
1.1. Sin of idolatry (1st commandement - "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" Ex 20:3) 1.2. Punishment for idolatry is death (Golden Calf episode Ex 32:4) 2. You cannot love someone that want you dead.(1) and (2) forms the thesis "atheists hate Religion". Can you love your enemy organofcorti? Best regards. 1. atheists don't have a God. Period. It's not about having another God. 2. atheists don't want God dead. We are saying there is no God. You do see the difference do you not? "Best regards". LOL |
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Look. I am not posting with the idea that I am out to defame you in any way. And I suspect that you are not out to do such to me. The things that I explain in my posts, mostly are the simple explanations. You don't have to believe me, obviously. But if you are interested in some of it, there are libraries full of books and an Internet that has almost as much. In addition, there are my previous posts, many of which have links in them, or instructions about what to search on to see why I say what I do. This posting is fun. And it is instructional for all who want to take part. But I am not doing it with the idea of writing a book to explain answers to your questions. The problem is not that I"don't believe" you. It's true that I don't accept statements that I can show to be either invalid or unproveable. The problem is that while you think that what you're posting is a simple explanation, I have been showing you that your underlying assumptions appear invalid and warrant further discussion. Since I haven't seen you showing me anything via your posting, and since I haven't been posting any underlying assumptions that I have, your statements here are irrelevant for me, at least regarding the things I have posted. That's the point - you don't even know what your underlying assumptions are, and I'm trying to find out if they are valid or not. If not valid, your entire argument disappears in a puff of logic. Now, that's quite presumptuous of you, suggesting that I don't know what my underlying assumptions are. No, again that's the point. In all of the discussions we had, there were questions you were unable to answer, and to which you were either unable or unwilling to say "I don't know". This being the case, it's fair to conclude that you either don't know or don't want to admit your underlying assumptions. It seems that you can barely stay on point. Are you a mind reader that you know my underlying assumptions enough so that you can examine them? If you happen to know my underlying assumptions, are you so foolish that you think that you can judge their validity fairly?
Once again, I don't know what your underlying assumptions are because you either don't know or won't admit them. Also, the ability to read minds is fiction, not reality. If your point is that I am wrong, perhaps I am.
My point is that neither of us knows if you are wrong because once challenged you just change the subject and insult whoever is the target du jour. Actually, it is your challenge that changes the subject. No, i was responding to you. No change in subject. The on-topic part that I was doing was to show why atheists hate religion. You and your challenges without doing your research, shows how you would rather change the subject so that we move away from the proof that God exists, and away from showing atheists why they hate religion... which is... because religion is right, and not even atheists like being proven wrong. Those statements are all completely unsupported. There is no proof -- certainly none posted by you, that atheists hate religions -- just more of the same unsubstantiated and unsupportable arguments that you consistently make. If I'm wrong, please prove that as a class atheists hate all religions. No one has yet proved that. Religious people hate other religious people, that is clear. Someone give this man a beer! He deserves it! |
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Let me tell you something, as a theology major, that is: theology is nonsense. And I can and am allowed to say that because mine is an informed opinion. I'm not just talking out of my ass. And after 5 years my opinion (doesn't have to be yours too) is that it's just a bunch of hooey. How easy it is to make nonsense up, make people believe it, and then live out of people's ignorance. It's genius!
Perhaps if you had been a spiritual major, all that theology would have made some sense to you. Too bad. All that training, and what good did it do you. Essentially none... at least in the ways that are worth anything of eternal value. Go study science with a focus on finding out how cause and effect, complex universe, and universal entropy combine to prove the existence of God. Then go back and review your theological training. You just might come to understand that even you can be saved for eternal life in pleasure and joy. Yeah - it took me 5 years of studying theology to finally understand that it's all nonsense. That's my opinion, please respect it, I'll respect your and that's it. Don't force your ideas upon others. Go be with Jesus. In Hell you will be saying for eternity, "Please God, let that guy force faith in you on me." If God is so powerful and full of mercy and love He will forgive me, because I'm small and limited and He is all powerful. If not then He is spiteful and keeps spite like a small child. He is trying to forgive you. But you will receive none of it. The retarded black person over in Africa, who never learned to read or write, and who is not saved because he worships the idol his family taught him to worship, will be punished less in Hell than you, a theology major, who intentionally rejected God after you found out all about Him. He can forgive me even if I don't receive it. I mean He can see that I'm small and stupid, right? So it's fine. He's all knowing and all powerful. |
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The validity comes about because of the fact that it exists as it does??
What does that even mean?
Something is because something is? The fact that the Harry Potter exists (it is written) doesn't mean the accounts in it are true.
And tradition and word of mouth are not proof.
I quote that. Can we agree on the God of the Old Testament: is the God of the Old Testament the same of all 3 monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam)? Best regards. As a philosophical experiment I will agree that theoretically all religions worship the same God using different names for it. That's true deep down inside themselves. That's why Jesus says wording to the effect of, "Unless you repent and become like little children, you will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." After people become adults, and start formulating what they think God is like, if their formulation doesn't match the truth, they have formed a false god for themselves. This is why the Bible says, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Fill yourself on the Bible, so that you have an accurate picture of God in your mind, so that you are worshiping the true God. Become naive like children and stupid and obedient like sheep? No thanks! I'll keep my mind to myself. |
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I'm sure Jesus is alive in heaven but He's not here on earth. And we, here, on earth, deal in real, objective, palpable things.
Can we at least agree on the God of the Old Testament before coming to the one in the New Testament? Best regards. So there are two different Gods? Well well - things get interesting. And to top it off, you throw in silliness? Silliness? I'm just answering to what you started. If you say silly things, unfortunately that's what I'm answering to. |
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Free will? That is something I can prove false...
If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)
Then free will cannot exist
God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)... he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!
You have free will in deciding to have faith in him or not. Best regards. No. You only have free will to decide not to believe in Him. However, if your free will is weak enough, the Holy spirit can work faith in your heart. So the Holy Spirit works better on the weak minded/spirited? That's really funny. That would mean that the ones that are atheists have strong mindsets. Thank you for the compliment. It's very welcome. Unfortunately for them, if their spiritual strength is strong enough to resist God, they are resisting their own salvation, and plunging themselves into Hell. Oh well. They asked for it. Even god gave them this ability. Jesus said, "Shake the dust off your feet." So being strong is bad and being weak is good? Yeah - church has put all of its money on this premise since the beginning. That's a new one. Well if that's the case I prefer being strong minded. I'll deal with the other problems when they'll occur. Better to be a Jedi than a sheep. Also - you wrote "god" instead of "God". Really, man! Don't you have any respect?! |
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If we had the proof of His existence then how us, mortals, could oppose His will? God has left a tiny area of free will open in us. It has to do with aspects of faith that we have in Him. It doesn't have anything to so with any of our standard understanding of free will, like choosing which side of the bed to get out of in the morning. Our free will has to do with limited aspects of our faith in God. That's it. God judges us according to our faith in Him. Then how could He test us? God tests us based on the freewill portion of our faith in Him. ...the area of free will... That is something I can prove false... If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs: 1) God created the universe exactly as it is 2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities) 3) God is Omniscient (knows the future) Then free will cannot exist God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)... he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine! A point about free will and prayer... When you pray for God to change his divine plan to benefit yourself... You claim that you know better than God does? You ask him to change his perfect/divine plan because your kid has cancer? Who are you to question God's divine/perfect plan?!? God gave your kid cancer because that is His plan, and you think you know better than God? The lolz Logic - can't fight it. Not in this universe. Which, I for one, believe drives this current version of the universe we're living in. Since God asks us to pray, does Moloch think that God doesn't have the ability to answer prayer according to our way and His at the same time? Of course GOd answers prayers, it's just that He answers with NO 99,99% of the time. |
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I also studied physics but I'm not a physician. If a study a certain field makes me only an informed person concerning that field. That's all.
You need to be a priest to study Theology: you cannot study by yourself. I accept that answer in the "violent discussion" we are having. Best regards. EDIT: if Theology can be studied without being a priest give proofs. It's called theology school. Jeez kid! It's a serious profession - you can't be doing it without a diploma. Aren't things like that in Italy as well? |
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Jesus is the rock. I am founded on Jesus. Of course talking to me is like talking to a rock... You can't move the foundation of the universe, the Rock, Jesus Christ. Humm... Jesus is different from the Bible. The biggest part of the Bible has nothing to do with Jesus, you know that no? Now what started this line of thinking? Actually, you are wrong. The whole theme of the Bible is to show the salvation that Jesus provides. In fact, the beginning of the Gospel of John in the New Testament says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. In the quote, the word "Word" is used to refer to both Jesus and the Bible. In addition, Jesus, Himself, said, referring to the Scriptures (Bible): These are they which testify about me. The Bible is essentially, at least in theme, Jesus. What about the Leviticus for example? Which is the part where homosexuality or the worship of other gods is heavily punished, most of the time by death (and a painful one). What's the link with Jesus here? First let me go back to the beginning. After Adam and Eve sinned, God came to them walking in the Garden. They hid themselves because they were naked. You can read about it in Genesis chapter 3. Specifically for our purposes, verse 8: Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. God is a Spirit. Spirits don't walk in gardens in the cool of the day. The one aspect of God Who is not only a Spirit only, but is also a man so that He can walk, is Jesus. Jesus was there right in the beginning, already helping people through their sins and mistakes. Read how He helped Adam and Eve, it's in the Bible, in Genesis 3. Regarding Leviticus, the whole period of the Israel people from the time even before they left Egypt, and throughout the early years in Canaan, Jesus is there... in the form that He has in the beginning chapter(s) of the Revelation. Whenever you see the words "the Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament, this is talking about Jesus, before He came in His humility - as a child born of Mary. If you see the words, "an angel," or "an angel of the Lord," it probably is not talking about Jesus. The whole Bible is about Jesus and the things He did to save mankind. In addition, it is written in ways that the reader will get the best advantage out of it... by listening to the stories of real people who lived real lives of trouble, just like all of us. Stories don't mean anything. Even if they are told by "real" people doesn't mean they are real. Just once I'd like to see you say something concrete: God exists, and the proof is "X". Something scientifically proven. Until now you haven't said a thing. If you really feel like this, there is no way that you can accept anything as scientific fact without doing the experiments yourself. Do you really speak in this forum because you like to watch how people articulate the "stories" they talk about? Is it simply an exercise of semantics for you? That's a good point, but still, there's a difference between things told by a priest that talks about air and a scientist that even I haven't repeated its experiment I can go see it. I can go and see the CERN supercollider - it's real, right? In a church there are only paintings and statues. But on the other hand there are statues and paintings also in museums and they don't mean anything, just art, no one's implying that they're supernatural, so... you know. There's that. |
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The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?
Because Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord. Best regards. As usual, we have to fear the Lord. That's not right - ruling through fear. That's the rule of the jungle. The most powerful rules. There was no need for laws and free will. Fear always works best. If you want to be Wise you need to work: work is called fearing the Lord in Theological sense. You could live stupid all your life: I won't blame you for that. Best regards. Thank you for not blaming me, even if you do consider me stupid. I'll do the same for you. |
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So the Holy Spirit works better on the weak minded/spirited? That's really funny.
That would mean that the ones that are atheists have strong mindsets.
Thank you for the compliment. It's very welcome.
You cannot be an atheist: you studied theology. You are not making sense (again). Best regards. I also studied physics but I'm not a physician. If a study a certain field makes me only an informed person concerning that field. That's all. |
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