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1101  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin sell-off rhythm on: November 22, 2011, 12:32:55 PM
You missed a sell off in the middle of the August and September lines.  But that doesn't fit your observation.
1102  Economy / Speculation / Re: How fast will bitcoin recover? on: November 22, 2011, 09:31:43 AM
With no common use, you're just speculating on an abstraction. IN fact, for many of you it would be just as easy to bet back and forth using a completely fictitious currency that you never take delivery of. Virtually none of you actually use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange to purchase goods an services. Instead, you applaud new market entries, products and services available for Bitcoin, but virtually all of you fail to bother to support the very currency that you're so fixated on.

Nailed it in one.  I use bitcoins as a convenient tool for speculation in a completely unregulated market.  It's kinda fun, sometimes.  I don't buy narcotics so haven't availed myself of Silk Road, the one commerce area where bitcoins are clearly superior to other forms of payments.  I don't transfer money internationally either, which is another area where bitcoins can be useful.  As long as the recipient wants bitcoins.  If they want their local currency then the receiver has to go to an exchange to get the cash, introducing delays and fees, and defeating the purpose of the exercise.
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GPU mining is one of the reasons we're in this situation. Push the price lower, and bankrupt the majority of miners. It has to happen.

Push too many people out and the whole thing can be killed off.  Bitcoin right now is built on hope: hope that it will become popular and widely used.  Hope that the price will retrace some of its previous highs.
1103  Economy / Speculation / Re: I like the manipulator, I had him all wrong, he is robbing you fools on: November 22, 2011, 06:25:02 AM
The best way to deal with it and to move bitcoin into the realm of an actual currency is to just ignore the exchanges completely, to stop depositing bitcoin with them, and let the value of a bitcoin be determined by real world assets instead of fiat. Money is cheap and abundant, hard assets are expensive and rare.

The btc:fiat exchanges are blinding people to the true utility and value of bitcoin.
We are all getting blinkered by MtGox, and failing to see the forrest for the trees!

No currency or commodity exists in a vacuum.  All are compared against at least one other value metric.  Even the best commodity with a proven track record over thousands of years (gold) is priced in US dollars.  Without that metric, how would one buy a piece of gold?  What is its value?  The exact same is true for bitcoins.  You can mine them yourself, just as you can go out and find a piece of gold in the ground.  But there are real costs associated with both actions.  

Even if we price bitcoins in ounces of gold that doesn't change the fact that bitcoins will always be compared to the value of other currencies, either by one or maybe two degrees of separation.

BTW, bitcoin is not a hard asset.  It has no intrinsic value in itself and doesn't even exist in what most people would consider physical form (no, burning it to a ROM or CD doesn't count).  Bitcoin is an agreement between multiple people who agree to give it value.  Yes, there is a limited number that will ever exist, but in every other way it's the same as any other currency.
1104  Economy / Speculation / Re: How fast will bitcoin recover? on: November 22, 2011, 12:46:11 AM
Assuming it will recover, do you think it will a slow-paced increase over years or we'll see prices doubling every week?

I strongly feel that the next year will be decisive. Once global economy goes in the second wave of crisis, people will move away from fiat and stocks. Also next year is the halving to 25 BTC per block.

Halving of the block reward from 50 to 25 may in fact lower the price of bitcoins, not make them more expensive.  Less reward for miners = less return per kilowatt spent on power.  I would be glad to return to this quote in a year's time and see whether it's true.  I honestly think it is.

A similar argument was once made for the difficulty rating, where some argued a higher difficulty rating justified higher pricing.  We've seen that works in the opposite way: a high difficulty yields less BTC per kilowatt of power, causing miners to drop out until difficulty falls in line with the price.  The price didn't chase difficulty: miners chased the price and caused difficulty to go higher.

There are only two things that will make bitcoin retrace some of its former highs:

1) Major retailers getting on board and using bitcoins.  Not 'mom 'n pop' internet stores selling trinkets, but serious businesses with large turnovers.

2) Another speculative bubble based on potential future uses.  This one is unlikely to reoccur.  Burst bubbles rarely reinflate using the same arguments or reasons as speculators are naturally very wary.
1105  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bruce Wagner - held a fuckload of coins! did he sell them all? on: November 21, 2011, 04:46:25 AM
in my book he is a moron and too greedy if he did not sell most of his coins when they were above $10. When you can become an instant millionare you sell at least half of your bitcoins instead of taking the risk. It dropped slow enough that most of these early adaptors should have unloaded at least half of all their coins.

Well, you know what they say about hindsight.  Some people were predicting a crash during the exponential run up to $30.  Any look at history would tell speculators that you cannot have a speculative bubble build so quickly and so high on a commodity that's essentially an agreement between a very limited number of people, without a huge crash at the end.  This time it's different, but this is special, you don't really understand how the market works.  The same reasons were recycled this time around.  But I doubt many were predicting a fall to $2 this quickly. 

A very early adopter would still be sitting on a massive gain if they mined or bought when bitcoins were valued at a few cents each.  Not selling at $10+ however could be uncharitably seen as a sign of sheer greed.  A 100x or more gain just wasn't enough.
1106  Economy / Speculation / Re: Timeline of "The Manipulator" on: November 21, 2011, 04:09:05 AM
Another part of the mythos will be fond memories of the brief $30 bubble.

The costumes are already on sale:
http://www.zazzle.com.au/bitcoin_millionaire_tshirt-235298223683897973

"Are you a bitcoin millionaire? Are you still mining away with dreams of retiring early? Show off how loaded you are/will be."

Ahh, those were the days.
1107  Economy / Speculation / Re: At what price could YOU hold up the bitcoin exchange price? on: November 20, 2011, 10:53:14 PM
There isn't really a price to support.

The speculator who buys a bitcoin at 10c/btc may think 30c/btc is a fantastic price and sell.  Who wouldn't want to triple their money almost overnight?  Difficulty will auto adjust as miners leave due to the flagging bitcoin price.  At current difficulty levels it only makes sense to mine with 'free' power, stolen power, or if the miner doesn't care about economics at all.
1108  Economy / Speculation / Re: How many of you have been Zhoutonged? on: November 20, 2011, 06:21:44 AM
I just think we need some modern day robin hoods. Kill and steal from the rich to give to the poor (yes the historical version is much more brutal than the disney one). Maybe then they will think twice about supressing their subjects and subjecting them to abject poverty. Either way I am on neither side of the fence for now unless you count my RPP in which the rich bastards I work for match 100% of my contibutions which I would be stupid not to max out lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivization_in_the_Soviet_Union

It was pretty messy, caused much suffering and death, didn't make the poor any richer and the rich (those who lived on through political connections) didn't get any poorer.
1109  Economy / Speculation / Re: I like the manipulator, I had him all wrong, he is robbing you fools on: November 19, 2011, 10:39:01 AM
While I don't agree on the desire to harm bitcoin overall, I do agree that your theory is one viable option(and I cleaned up your post via removing all your ebay stuff).

The person has so much market power that he can make money via this tactics. He probably has the lowest fees on MtGox and hence can make money with lowest spreads.

The only way to change this is to attract more people to buy bitcoins. Once the "manipulator = big trader" does not have such a big market power any more, its over for him.


This is the key problem.  We need to attract more buyers to raise the price without making it sound like we're trying to sucker people in to a dodgy investment.  One that has fallen 93% in value from its brief peak.

Us: "Come join bitcoin.  Buy some bitcoins"

Them: "Okay, why?"

Us: "So that the price of bitcoins will rise"

Them: "Who holds the existing bitcoins?"

Us: "We do"

Them: "So, why exactly is it in my interest to buy them and help you out?"

1110  Economy / Speculation / Re: Pictures Of The Manipulator on: November 19, 2011, 03:02:49 AM


Doesn't count if the bear's just taking a nap.

Or tranquilized.
1111  Economy / Speculation / Re: Is it tripple bottom? on: November 19, 2011, 02:30:58 AM
I wouldn't worry about it too much.  This thing isn't falling below $2.

What do you mean, worry? It's 3am and I'm only up in case there are more cheap coins to get. Sure I hold BTC, but their fate surely isn't decided today. Or do I look like I sell BTC below 2.5? Cheesy haha, that's a good one.

Unfortunately, that big player there jumped in already, and we're again not seeing any action below 2.

Many people post on these forums with something along the lines of: "Let bitcoin fall further to X, I'll just buy up all the cheap bitcoins".  The only problem is the poster assumes the price will go up from that point.  What if it keeps falling further and there's other people out there thinking 'let it fall even further, I'll buy all of them at price Y'.  Catching a falling knife, is the saying that comes to mind.
1112  Economy / Speculation / Re: Is it tripple bottom? on: November 19, 2011, 02:07:07 AM
I wouldn't worry about it too much.  This thing isn't falling below $2.
1113  Economy / Speculation / Re: So what are the real reasons bitcoin fell so low? on: November 18, 2011, 04:39:26 AM
as a wise man once said... "suckers.. we need more suckers."
right...

We need Big questions answered

like, is bitcoin legal?

once these question can be answered, demand will go up. and a new speculative bubble will form and this time it will go higher then ever b4

Is bitcoin legal?  AFAIK no country has declared it to be illegal.  Even then, does it really matter?  Online poker is illegal in the USA but thrives world wide.  Alcohol is illegal in Saudi Arabia but it doesn't stop me enjoying wine in Australia.

Speculative bubbles rarely reinflate.  What people hope and wish happens is usually different to what is a realistic proposition.
1114  Economy / Speculation / Re: Anybody else watching Mtgox Live? on: November 18, 2011, 02:42:28 AM
The beautiful design of bitcoin ensures that people dropping out of GPU mining wouldn't kill bitcoin.  The block generation rate remains the same regardless of how many people are mining or what they're mining with.  The only significant danger is miners dropping out en masse in an instant, with a large number of blocks to go before the next difficulty reset.  Unless bitcoin's price drops well under $1 from today's levels I don't really see that happening.  There are enough people mining with 'free' or stolen electricity to keep it going anyway.
1115  Economy / Speculation / Re: Confirmed: Bitcoinica sold at $1.994 on: November 18, 2011, 12:38:30 AM
Saw some people discussing about the "manipulator" sold below $2.

It's not the manipulator, but Bitcoinica. Our system liquidated a lot of positions at the price around $2.

That explains a lot of the strange trading activity we see.  I would bet most trading on MtGox is program driven with scant human oversight.

It's ironic that a Utopian commodity/currency designed for freedom is being heavily affected by high frequency trading, short trading, and other tricks the 1% on Wall Street use.
1116  Economy / Speculation / Re: Next stop: $1.7 on: November 17, 2011, 09:53:28 AM
I drew on a chart, so it's legit.

Enjoy the ride, folks!

You didn't use a log graph.  We're still in a massive bull market on a log graph.
1117  Economy / Speculation / Re: how many bitcoin do you own? on: November 17, 2011, 09:03:32 AM
I am The Manipulator.  I will pwn them all, soon.
1118  Economy / Speculation / Re: How Much Lower are We Going? Already at $2.25 !!! on: November 17, 2011, 08:40:45 AM
is this titanic sinking in fireworks? how did you produce this image?

Probably signaling flares.  The Titanic was so.... titanic, when it went down that it made the entire ocean list, by the looks of that image.
1119  Economy / Speculation / Re: How Much Lower are We Going? Already at $2.25 !!! on: November 17, 2011, 07:19:38 AM
Boom.  Dumping several thousand BTC has just pushed us past $2.  New post bubble lows.
1120  Economy / Speculation / Re: 50K bidwall at 2.30 - Crash over? on: November 17, 2011, 04:54:32 AM
I mean, seriously, what were people doing buying all those coins in the past few hours.  It was painfully obvious what was going on.  I'm beyond baffled.

Catch the trading wave and ride it in.  Market is rising again.  The trend is your friend, and so is the manipulator.
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