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2721  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Legitimately paying for Bitcoins seems like a complete chore on: December 03, 2012, 03:05:45 AM
I think once I get my fans connected up and working I will just mine what I need since it seems like a cheaper option than paying for it in the traditional fashion. See, this is why I think that GPU mining is still going to continue because there are people like me who won't be in it for profit but will just want to transfer their wealth into something that is much easier to move, use and doesn't charge a bloody fortune.

There is that.  Even running at break-even on electricity (maybe $0.10 per kWh electricity, with typical GPU mining rig configuration), GPUs provide waste heat for free which is useful in much of the northern hemisphere right now.  

Also, utilities are consumed today and payment for that consumption is deferred up to 45 days or more (once the bill arrives and is then due).  So mining provides a method that coins can be obtained on credit.

I've been surprised at the hashrate though.  I really expected a good 10% or 15% drop in the hashrate at the first difficultly adjustment after halving if ASICs weren't out yet.  Looks like another increase, instead of a decrease.
2722  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: General bitcoin license for services dealing in bitcoins? on: December 03, 2012, 02:32:42 AM
These would not be any texts or licenses that the bitcoin software comes with, or requires anyone to comply with. These would be very good examples of how to form an EULA for a company that is dealing with bitcoins, to avoid future problems and make any possible future legal processes more clear and easier to settle.

These would only be suggestions for operating.  Unless a merchant expressly states that it follows these suggestions, there should be no expectation that a merchant would have any obligations or responsibilities related to the suggestions.

The suggestions for operations might be along the lines of:

Payment is considered complete only after six confirmations occur within the longest chain of a node running the latest release of the reference client.  While payment may be recognized by the seller with fewer than six confirmations, only a payment with six confirmations is considered settled.  The seller can release the buyer from a debt obligation with fewer than six confirmations but that would be through an explicit agreement establishing a different threshold.  

If there is a blockchain reorganization and a payment that had six confirmations reverts to having fewer than six confirmations, the seller is still expected to honor the payment as having settled.  If there is a double-spend transaction for a previously sent transaction that had six confirmations, that would be an act of theft and the merchant can and should take appropriate measures to protect its financial interests.

If a transaction is accepted by the latest reference client and gets relayed to other nodes but is not included in any blocks (e.g., because the fee was not sufficient for a miner to consider including the transaction), that buyer cannot assert that payment has been made.

If a transaction is not accepted by the latest reference client the buyer cannot assert that payment has been made.

But there are a lot of assumptions there.

What is the reference client?  What if BitcoinJ becomes the most widely used client, for instance, and it takes certain transactions but the Bitcoin.org reference client does't yet accept blocks with those transactions?

Also, the payment protocol being discussed would be a big component of the suggestion for operations:
 - http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg01567.html



2723  Bitcoin / Technical Support / Re: Forgot my wallet passphrase, Any ideas? on: December 02, 2012, 11:50:44 PM
Well, In theroy i know the password, what im saying is that ive entered everything i think it has been, Ive tried alot of passwords, I WAS pretty sure i knew Exactly what it was but apparently not

Hire rix for the job:

 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85495.msg965203#msg965203
2724  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE on: December 02, 2012, 09:22:19 PM
"Flash crash" is not possible, because short spikes won't produce a mass position liquidation in our system, especially if it goes *against* spot market. However, don't forget: if you're in "margin call zone", liquidation of your open positions may happen at every moment. Either fill up your account as soon as you can, or face consequences.

Those read like two conflicting statements.

Am I misunderstanding?   To me it says.

A huge price swing won't cause liquidation.  But be careful because a huge price swing could cause liquidation of your positions.

The reason I am wondering is perhaps I would like to manage my balance to not have significantly more than is necessary to meet the margin maintenance requirements.  If I simply needed to have sufficient maintenance at the time of clearing, then that would be easy -- as I could make sure to add more funds or do some trades before clearing if it looked like I might be getting close to having insufficient margin remaining.    But if I have to worry that at any point in time throughout the day if a price swing goes against me my positions could get liquidated then I'm going to be more focused on making sure my margin maintenance level never ends up being low enough to where I'm exposed to that risk.

Is there more info on how this (liquidations) are handled?
2725  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: UK options for BTC to GBP on: December 02, 2012, 08:57:24 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. I have looked at local bitcoins but its quite a journey to travel to any traders nearby.

Generally the buyers are waiting for sellers to list an "ad" on LocalBitcoins.  

So there could be someone near you wanting to buy and is right now frustrated that there are no sellers nearby.   And you are looking and are frustrated that there are no buyers nearby.   Do you see the problem there?
2726  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Three days out, and network hashrate unaffected? on: December 02, 2012, 07:37:49 PM
A dual 5970 rig is still profitable up until $0.15/kWh.  It is winter for most miners, so the heat generated is a benefit and not a cost driver.

That configuration ranks up there as far as being on the high end of Mhash/J.  A whole lot of hardware is probably at a third less.   And few care to mine just to break even -- unless the waste heat serves a purpose as you described.

 - http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/

The number of people whose marginal electric rate is $0.07 per kWh or less is a pretty small number.
2727  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: ICBIT Derivatives Market (USD/BTC futures trading) - LIVE on: December 02, 2012, 06:13:17 PM
So in the long run, it has no effect unless your positions are forced close,

Or you put in a lowball bid and just wait for "8 O'clock Charlie" to strike.

Incidentally, this works both ways.  We've seen buying right before the bell that pushes the clearing price up above market as well.

Liquidity is the solution.  And these type of profit opportunities are just what brings more liquidity.
2728  Economy / Gambling / Re: SatoshiDICE.com - The World's Most Popular Bitcoin Game on: December 02, 2012, 05:39:34 PM
You can if you are a pool owner. In this case you can rollback some lost bets.

Well, there's no such thing as "rollback".  There is the Finney attack which is to include (but not broadcast) a transaction that spends funds to another address controlled by the miner.  Immediately when that miner (or pool operator) solves a block, hold the block and place a bet with SatoshiDICE with the same coin.   If it wins, toss the mined block and collect the winnings.  If it loses, broadcast the block. and get the losses back.  Of course, the problem with that is that it is pretty easy to detect that it is happening.

So a mining pool operator could get away with it until SatoshiDICE (or anyone else looking at the double spends) points out which pool operator is doing this and thus that pool loses hashing capacity as miners move on to other pools that don't use their customer's hashing strength to cheat bitcoin businesses.  (and, more importantly, having "bad luck" by throwing away blocks you as a pool miner had shares for, if payouts are of that category).

Also, as my post just one above yours mentioned, there is an expense to carry this out and a way for SatoshiDICE to mitigate if it happens enough to worry about it.

[Edited to clarify why miners won't stay with a pool that would cheat here.]
2729  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Alternatives to Mt Gox on: December 02, 2012, 08:38:54 AM
- Located in Australia
- Varies from 100 coins up to 1000s of coins
- Telegraphic transfers, cash and direct bank deposits (in Australia)
- 3-5 days is usually fine
- Privacy not that important

There have been reports of people having a good experience using CurrencyFair in conjunction with an exchange.  With CurrencyFair, you transfer money (bank wire push) from your bank account to  CurrencyFair, then convert to a destination currency (e.g., USD) and then send the funds as a wire elsewhere.
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CurrencyFair

There've been a few reports that this works with Mt. Gox, though others have said that wire transfers to Mt. Gox (in this case, coming from CurrencyFair) must be in the name of the accountholder so who knows.  This may work with other exchanges as well though.

is that picture the one taken from Mars surface?

Yup.  It's just a rock (and shadow).
2730  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Reward Half without ASICs = Bad for miners? on: December 02, 2012, 08:11:27 AM
Without ASICs will mining shrink/centralize ?

At the current levels of exchange rate and difficulty, yes, there is currently too much GPU hashing capacity to be supported by 3,600 BTC at $12.50 per BTC.

Will this damage the bitcoin community by shrinking it?

Was 24 Thash/s necessary to protect from 51% attack?  If bitcoin only had 12 Thash/s would it have been p0wned by an attacker by now?

Unlikely. 

It will consolidate for a bit here. 

If ASICs weren't "real soon now", miners would be buying up FPGAs to replace their power-hungry GPUs.  But with ASICs around the corner, nobody is buying an FPGA right now.

While GPUs started out being people using their existing gaming GPU, it quickly become a commercial endeavor.  Since a small-time miner would hit limits for power and heat, only those who could expand were the larger GPU farms where the cost of new electrical and heating could be justified by it adding such large amounts of hashes.   The efficiencies favored a smaller number of larger players.   

Because FPGAs were more efficient, the electrical capacity wasn't reached as easily.   This helped to distribute the hashing capacity to a wider group again.

ASICs will likely cause distribution to spread even further.

So essentially, the "energy hog" property of GPUs actually worked against decentralization.  If the hashing capacity drops, it is coming nearly entirely from GPUs so the mix of GPUs and FPGAs will show GPU dropping and FPGAs growing (on a relative basis), but both are done when ASICs ship from multiple manufacturers.
2731  Economy / Gambling / Re: SatoshiDICE.com - The World's Most Popular Bitcoin Game on: December 02, 2012, 05:52:38 AM
What if I could double-spend just my losing bets?  That would cost them plenty.

Yup, I guess I should have qualified my statement by saying payouts for wagers that end up being double spends don't cause a loss to SatoshiDICE.

We know that to do that type of double spend (using the Finney attack) is expensive. And a mitigation should SatoshiDICE start to see these occur, is to delay disclosing WIN/LOSS status long enough so that a financial loss is ensured for anyone attempting this strategy.
2732  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ? on: December 02, 2012, 04:56:28 AM
Incidentally, there's another recent thread with some overlap:

How do we deal with an internet blackout?
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128702.0
2733  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 02, 2012, 04:55:22 AM
has there been any larger test cases for a mesh net ?

Yes, and there is an org that is doing testing of a wireless mesh WAN, although I can't think of the name just now.  I believe they are working in Arizona right now, but they already have a nationally allocated frequency band license from the FCC, so this is no fly by night operation.

Sounds like Free Network Foundation.   They have a nationwide license for 3.6 GHz  (for backhaul of a Kilometer-wide range).
They are operating a mesh in Kansas City right now.
 - http://commons.thefnf.org/index.php


Incidentally there's another recent thread with some overlap:

Bitcoin + Decentralized Internet = ?
- http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127849.0
2734  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Transaction change vanished on: December 02, 2012, 04:40:37 AM
The history of transactions (all of them from now unknown addresses since this backup was so old) came up, but towards the end the same problem with the -1BTC followed by the -99BTC came in. And after that the latest transaction of -99BTC this time displaying also the corresponding change of -1BTC!  So, the problem was repeted, and the account is now empty. [/quote

Now I'm confused.  You said the 99 went in transaction 724d1caf9cc4302d02564908fcbd1d47878732b6eb4da818a3495709d595944c:
 - http://blockchain.info/tx-index/34640934/724d1caf9cc4302d02564908fcbd1d47878732b6eb4da818a3495709d595944c

So from that transaction I see that the 1 BTC went to 1NNdZiBH3yLsBSxrdVrJRptaj99hQwvbKy:
 - http://blockchain.info/address/1NNdZiBH3yLsBSxrdVrJRptaj99hQwvbKy

But that 1.0 BTC amount hasn't been spent since that transaction.  And that address later had another 99 BTC sent to it, so it now holds 100 BTC.

Have you tried launching the Bitcoin-Qt from the command line with -rescan?

 Bitcoin-Qt -rescan
2735  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Reward Half without ASICs = Bad for miners? on: December 02, 2012, 04:04:49 AM
Are you one of those?

Heh, nope.

Also, how long do you think GPU miners with free electric will keep mining, even AFTER the ASICs hit?

If the GPUs are providing needed heat for the winter, maybe springtime.  Or earlier, especially with the noise.

Just like nobody messes with CPU mining anymore, once 100+ Thash of new capacity comes online, those GPUs won't be doing any good even with free electricity.

Now there could be continued life with CoinLab's HPC effort ... especially for those with a low cost of electricity.
2736  Economy / Gambling / Re: SatoshiDICE.com - The World's Most Popular Bitcoin Game on: December 02, 2012, 03:49:07 AM
Shut the site down ASAP!
And Fix this ASAP,
before the hole is dug too deep.

LOL.

Just in case anyone else is unaware of how SatoshiDICE works, the payouts include coin from the original wager.  This is the innovation that allowed them to do instant payouts without having to wait for confirmations.  From another thread:

Incidentally, wagers that are double spends don't cost SatoshiDICE a thing, because even if they sent a payout for the WIN already the payout will not confirm either as it too will be a double spend.  And it is then no different from having never made a payout at all.

When these situations happen with SatoshiDICE, they can take a day or two to resolve.

There's nothing you can do but wait.
2737  Economy / Gambling / Re: Satoshidice you owe me (55.58+1.85)*12.50=$717.88 *Bounty jackpot offered on: December 02, 2012, 03:37:51 AM
lightlord,

you will get your $717.88 in 72 hours.

I will even bet 18.572 bitcoins. If accept and get your $717, you send me 18.572 btc. If not, I give you my entire wallet in 72hrs.

The countdown starts when you accept.

Heh.   Don't do it. lightlord or at least ask for like 100:1 odds.

[Edit:  TradeFortress ... at least make it look somehow fair.  "If not, I give you my entire wallet in 72hrs."]
2738  Economy / Gambling / Re: Satoshidice you owe me (55.58+1.85)*12.50=$717.88 *Bounty jackpot offered on: December 02, 2012, 03:30:24 AM
I just hope they didn't lost too much, to declare bankruptcy and forfeit everyone winning payments.
I notice they are doing all the little payments.

FFS, Would you just relax.

This is not the first time this happened.  Every transaction on SatoshiDICE that is a WIN eventually gets paid.    This is provable using the blockchain.

Your transaction confirmed.  It shows WIN.  You will get paid, just not right now apparently for whatever reason.
 - http://satoshidice.com/full.php?tx=a2dde18101ec3485fecb0d7b717371e1a61ff2ae2dff96002cf3683bde545b30

Incidentally, wagers that are double spends don't cost SatoshiDICE a thing, because even if they sent a payout for the WIN already the payout will not confirm either as it too will be a double spend.  And it is then no different from having never made a payout at all.

When these situations happen with SatoshiDICE, they can take a day or two to resolve.

There's nothing you can do but wait.
2739  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Mining on a laptop? on: December 02, 2012, 03:16:27 AM
My question is- Does it make sense mining on this laptop?

Even when GPU mining was profitable this was not recommended because it is so easy to harm either the GPU or the laptop with mining with this form factor.

After halving occurred a few days ago, unless you pay less than about half the average rate for electricity you are not going to be able to mine for profit on a GPU.  

The average electric rate is $0.15 per kWh, so if your cost of electricity is 0.075 per kWh or more, mining on a GPU now (and going forward, most likely) is a money-losing proposition.
2740  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: buy linden dollars without second life? on: December 02, 2012, 03:06:25 AM
6.5 year veteran of Second Life here.  I don't see how it would be possible to do this.  Linden Dollar balances only exist on the Second Life servers, tied to an account name.  Even Virwox itself and the Second Life company account (named "Supply Linden") have account names.  To have an account name, you must open an account on Second Life.

A.) If you are transferring Linden dollars from someone else, then yes -- you must register an avatar to receive them before you can send them to VirWoX to convert to BTCs.

B.) If you already have Second Life account and just want to sell your SLLs through VirWoX, then you update your VirWoX account with your avatar id, and then use the VirWox terminal in-game to transfer the SLLs to VirWoX.

C.) If instead you are first buying SLLs from VirWox and only using them to buy bitcoins, then it is all handled within VirWoX's ledger.  i.e., SLLs never left VirWox's account.  It is just a book entry.  And thus you don't need to touch Second Life or register an avatar.
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