That doesn't make the value intrinsic at all. Of course my example explain what is intrinsic value. Your wilful ignorance and incredulity will not change how intrinsic value is defined. There is no law of economics that guarantees you will sell something for no less than your cost. If such a rule existed the value would be intrinsic. Sell a loaf of bread for a lower value than it cost to produce is called loss (which can lead to a balance sheet where the liability is higher than the revenue). The definition of intrinsic value is independent of the loss or the profit generated when the loaf of bread is traded. The baker might go out of business and sell everything he has for far less than he paid. Perhaps the baker stole all of his ingredients and could sell for far less than his competitors. I still see no intrinsic value here. Do not really matter if the baker stole the ingredients or he was forced to bankrupt his business, the production of the broad of leaf will incur a cost. Human labour, source of heat and tools will be necessary to produce the loaf of bread. What I posted wasn't an interpretation of the words it was the actual definitions of the words. I posted exactly what they are defined to mean. It was a complete misinterpretation of the concept that both words means. If value was an intrinsic property of matter it would be invariable by definition. Nonsense. The discussion is about intrinsic value, not intrinsic property of matter. |
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But the baker has to buy all the ingredients for the bread (milk, flour, eggs, etc.), which also were bought at market value. So, which would be the real intrinsic value of that loaf of bread?
The value is the exactly cost to produce the loaf of bread. Whatever the baker paid the market value for the ingredients or he produced himself the ingredients, the loaf of bread will have an intrinsic value. |
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[meaningless interpretation of the words intrinsic and value] If someone produces a loaf of bread, the INTRINSIC value of that loaf of bread is the exactly cost to produce that loaf of bread. But since the baker needs to produce profits to stay in business and feed himself (and perhaps his family) with more than a loaf of bread, he adds value at the moment he sells that loaf of bread in the market (and thus the reason the government tax over the added value - a.k.a. VAT). So when the customers gossip with each other about how much they paid the baker ("OMG, I paid ... for a loaf of bread, can you believe?"), they refer to the MARKET value of the loaf of bread and not the INTRINSIC value. Got it? |
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I have to disagree.
The Exchange of Bitcoins is becoming more and more decentralised. From the all powerful MTGox, to 4/5+ main exchanges in just 12 months. Last year saw the introduction of the first Bitcoin ATM's and this year mobile bitcoin vending machines costing less than $1000 will erupt onto the scene, all of this in less than 12 months too.This year we will also see 'decentralised exchanges' for the first time ever. It is literally an EXPLOSION OF DECENTRALISATION. From one exchange to five exchanges is not a change which could be used to establish your argument. Moreover, the tendency is more and more exchanges complying with government policies. Since such policies are similar across different jurisdictions the exchanges dealing with BTC will adopt practices defined by a central body of governance. Bitpay exists not because of centralisation but because of slow bitcoin confirmation times and volatility. Both of which will ultimately be addressed in this or another crypto-currency making those centralised intermediaries obsolete. Bitpay exist because they want to obtain marginal profit from the BTC/fiat currency exchange markets. Period. The internet itself is a manifestation of the decentralisation evolution of man. After information the next steps are money and power. This sounds idiotic, sorry. No, it is not. Furthermore the most valuable crypto-currencies after Bitcoin are the ones that have evolved the decentralisation model even further.
(LC and faster confirm times and more ASIC resistant mining and other coins have POW etc.)
In fact the easiest thing to do would be to create a coin that was more centralised and had all the features the current centralised bases of power would like. But why out of the hundreds of crypto-currencies that have been made since Bitcoin has none been created yet? Generation Y would never use it. What the other electronic medium of exchanges had evolved was the capacity of man to speculate with money. |
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It's not just mining. The general trend over time is centralisation of everything. That's because professionalism is important but takes a lot of work, and the most obvious way to fund it is through offering services and charging a fee. Right now for a lot of Bitcoin users, their experience is like:
- Buy some coins on coinbase (essentially a bitcoin bank)
- Send them to a friend who uses blockchain.info
- Mine on a big pool like BTC Guild or GHash.io
- From time to time, buy things from a merchant who is using BitPay
It varies by region of course. Here in Europe I see a lot of people using the Android SPV wallet, so that's at least fairly decentralised. But it takes huge and constant effort to keep the decentralised solutions competitive with the more centralised forms. Cracking that problem is something I've spent a lot of time thinking about.
Agreed. Some people just fail to observe the universe and verify that centralization of forces is a natural phenomenon. The idea was to have solo "mining" (decentralized), but it became pooled "mining" (centralized). The idea was to every end user have a client (decentralized), but in reality it is more feasible use blockchain.info (centralized). The idea was to each user trade directly with another user (decentralized), but it turn out that exchange platforms are more reliable (centralized). |
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What intrinsic value does anything have, save for land, food and water? (and possibly freedom but I dont want to get all U.S.A. or philosophical up in here). Nothing, thats what. That is relative. What "intrinsic value" does gold have, apart from being shiny and nice to look at. The intrinsic value of gold is equivalent to the value to obtain that gold. |
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1. I've already expressed that intrinsic value by definition is an oxymoron. There is no such thing as guaranteed value with the exception of your body and mind and only because those are essential to your actual existence and so holds guaranteed personal value to you (Would you accept 1 trillion dollars or a mountain of gold in exchange for your life?). BTC is no exception as intrinsic value is non-existent. Gold has no intrinsic value; value by definition can never be intrinsic. No exceptions... Nope. Intrinsic value ≠ Guaranteed value Yes, value can be intrinsic. 2. Agree, current fiat is not perfect. Bitcoin is innovation and change in the right direction. 1792 coinage act is not perfect either because of fractional reserve banking.
3. Bitcoin is 100% aligned with your ideological beliefs. Bitcoin is owned by the carrier and always executes a peer to peer transaction while government fiat can never be owned by the user Government fiat is a debt to repay while Bitcoin is an asset which gains equity over time. Wrong and confunsed. BTC is never is possession of the carrier while anyone can possess banknotes from fiat currencies. Fiat money is an asset as well and BTC is also used to pay debts. |
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@Augusto Croppo
There is a war going on man. Time to pick a side.
What was the quote from that buffoon George W. Bush?
"you're either with us, or against us"
This is a forum, not a battlefield. There is no sides to be take. Bitcoin is a software, not a weapon. I have no qualms about USD being the most utilized reserve currency as have no qualm for BTC being purely virtual. Both could disappear from existence and I would rest peacefully. |
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If you live on the same planet as me, reserve currency (the one that international trade is settled in) of this planet is still USD (although there's been steps by other countries in the last 2 years, especially China, to move away from USD), which is a fiat currency. We don't need to theorize here of what reserve currency can or cannot be. We're talking about what it is now. USD, which is a reserve currency of this planet, is fiat now, backed by nothing, unless you count aircraft carriers, of course. You are missing the point again. The initial discussion was about why trades with BTC can be taxed. You are going off the topic. Go back and read the posts again, locate yourself. BTC is also "backed by nothing". This fact alone do not hinders in any way the capacity of elected governments to collect tax from trades done with BTC. |
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So far in history we've only witnessed cases of certain countries' currencies going to dustbin and resurrected with the loans from international financial organizations willing to provide those loans to countries, but what I am talking about in my previous post is the situation when the reserve currency itself is going to dustbin, who would back up other countries' currencies then? That's when your fiat wouldn't buy you a cabbage, actually you might even get your face punched for offering to pay in fiat for that cabbage  I don't even want to comment on your 'responsible central banks' phrase, it's too funny, I wouldn't know where to start. LOL (Again). No. Reserve currency ≠ Fiat currency This whole conversation started with you stating that "until Bitcoin is recognized legally as a currency, all trades done with Bitcoin are to be considered bartered trades, no tax applies" bullshit. Your doom's day scenario where all world economies will destabilize at the same time and everyone will suddenly only use only BTC to trade is far fetched. It's actually been decades now that the reserve currency has been depreciating in real purchase power terms, since Nixon canceled the Bretton Woods system in 1971. Since then all currencies have been living on borrowed time.
When I said 'a few years', I meant the final accelerating hyperinflation period, when hyperflation becomes noticeable to everyone, who goes shopping for groceries. Depreciation of reserve currency ≠ Price inflation of goods |
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I got the same letter and refund check...
Want to know the kicker?
I never filled out a refund request (in any form).
They are FORCING REFUNDS for batch1.
Expect your letter whether you want it or not. We now get to enjoy the forced 90% loss of investment plus the tax hit.
They are creating evidence for the legal retaliation. They will use that to argument in court they were complying with the FTC rules. |
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Just received a USD refund letter + check in response to my original full BTC payment refund request on Nov 10 and Jan 2: https://i.imgur.com/BMRKKs5.jpg?1For reference, my refund request is hereI did not fill out their USD refund & release form and did not request this. Getting so tired of these games. Wow, they are shameless engaging in deceptive practices. Notice they failed to provide you with an explanation about the exchange rate used to pay the order, completely ignoring their own argumentation that every customer merely used BTC to pay for a product priced in USD. |
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Basically, the way I see it, bitcoin will gradually be accepted as the norm. It will be an alternative payment method for your daily lives. The day will come when we can enter a shop or a supermarket, get our stuff, just place our phones over the bitcoin payment processor counter, tap accept, bitcoin gets transferred to the company or to a payment processor company, say BitPay, you walk away with the purchases you have just bought. LOL! No. Keep in mind, as more and more layers of service are necessary to optimize the utilization of BTC as payment method, more and more fees will be aggregated over one single transaction. When paypal first came out, no one thought much about it either. Now it's already a market leader. Paypal ≠ Private Money |
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You are completely confused. Read the article again. Fiat money ≠ Private money When I mentioned BitPay in my previous post I was trying to illustrate that the number of merchants that know about Bitcoin, and are prepared to accept Bitcoin is growing. When there are enough manufactures, wholesalers and retailers that accept Bitcoin, there will be no need to convert Bitcoin into fiat money. Yeah, I would like a situation like that, however you forgot one thing: diversity. What makes you think that a considerable number of business in many sectors of different economies will only choose BTC? Why not LTC? Or even DOGE? (ROFL!) BTC is not the only "private money" available in the list of options that all business have. They could even do they own "private money". |
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Once a certain currency becomes "worthless", the responsible central banks under the respective government directions will issue another.Have you even been aware that countries like Brazil changed they fiat currency many times when one became "worthless"? |
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This is not new. I already left a tip about that in November 2013, however it appears at that time no one noticed:  Terrahash Inc. is run by a hoaxer? http://www.geekwire.com/2011/guy-users-dumb/This is the guy who convinced everyone that IE users are dumb
August 4, 2011 at 11:31 am by Todd Bishop
His name is Tarandeep Gill. He’s a web developer and entrepreneur, a graduate of the Georgia Tech computer science program, and a resident of Vancouver, B.C. |
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It is for now. But what happens when there is no need to exchange Bitcoin for money to buy things. Bitpay has over 10000 merchants that accept Bitcoin directly, this number is growing daily. http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7023/bitpay-surpasses-10000-merchants/Imagine when you can buy things from the local store with Bitcoin. Until Bitcoin is recognized legally as a currency, all trades done with Bitcoin are to be considered bartered trades, no tax applies. Bitcoin it will never be treated at the same level as fiat money. Therefore there will be always necessary to exchange BTC for any fiat currency. That is what Bitpay does, it help merchants to receive fiat money after an on-the-fly exchange for BTC. You are failing to understand that BTC never will be legally recognized as fiat currency because the BTC supply cannot be controlled by any central bank. By the way, BTC is a medium of exchange used primarily to buy and sell fiat currency. This has nothing to do with barter. Everyone in need of BTC needs to pay for that with fiat currency. Even if someone accepts cabbages and potatoes to sell BTC, at some point that BTC will be exchanged by fiat currency. If you think that tax is not applied when trades are done with BTC, you are completely misinformed. The only situation where tax is not applied is when someone trades BTC for another alternative medium of exchange, such as LTC. Because there is no laws governing the trades of "virtual currencies", that could be considered a barter. However once the trades involves any another good tax will be applied if that results in profit. Ask your self: if BTC is so good for tax evasion, why are not Google using it? It is well know that companies like Google do whatever they can to evade tax. So why are not Google accepting BTC? |
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2. Mining ‘will not’ be dead
A lot of press notes and individual viewpoints state that mining is dead as we are already in the petahash domain and are restricted by Moore’s law from a technological stand point. I believed this until I heard Butterfly Labs and HighBitcoin talk about how enterprises can potential adopt mining. With transactions and transaction fees rising, it would be highly profitable for large enterprises to have data centers with mining equipment to process daily transactions. Beware! This article is promoting two suspicious business. |
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Please, take your cyber begging elsewhere. This is a place to people discuss subjects related to the Bitcoin software, not a free venue for Internet panhandling.
Thank you.
Augusto, I don't find this post relevant. Organizing donations is a project like any other, and probably more helpful than most other stuff here. What project are you talking about? There is no project. There is a random forum participant asking for donations without present any credentials whatsoever. This is not an organized charity, this is cyber begging. |
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Clearly you have NO idea what Bitcoin is about.
Bitcoin is meant to DEPOWER these CORRUPT organizations/businesses/secret services, whatever you want to call them.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=155990Date Registered: October 31, 2013, 04:58:00 PM You participate in this forum less than 6 months ago and you are already trying to convince others that ONLY you know what Bitcoin software is about? Nope, the Bitcoin software was never developed to meet your delusional expectations. |
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