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761  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Discussion (Altcoins) / Re: The DEX (Decentralized Exchange) Thread on: January 24, 2016, 05:57:39 AM
Bitshares didn't gain enough traction because they just didn't have enough users to get enough volume and liquidity.

Heard about B&C.  I thought they should have a proof of concept/alpha release by now.

I think we will be living with centralized exchanges for a few more years...


I agree, Bitshares' main weakness is the liquidity. Although,  the OPENBTC/BTS market actually had ~8 BTC in volume today which I think is impressive.. perhaps it is picking up steam. Some ideas being tossed around to improve liquidity:

- Changing the fee structure to resemble centralized exchanges (based on a percentage of the trade, with a maximum fee)
- Lowering fees to the bare minimum for however long it takes to gain more users and liquidity
- Sell the SmartCoin fee pool (fees accumulated from each SmartCoins' transactions/trades) back into the market X% over the price feed.
- Develop market making bots that users can run or invest in through a user issued asset (a complicated endeavor)
- Make an autonomous market making bot that users can buy shares of by depositing to its bankroll
- Implement "maker/taker" fees (lowering fees for market makers)
- Dilute BTS shareholders, and short assets into existence, then have the chain autonomously sell them X% above the feed price.

B&C Exchange has a functional wallet you can download on their website, but the exchange will not be functional for a while. Apparently, it may not be functional until later this year:

NuBits and B&C Exchange share the same team. This gives B&C the advantage of having people work on it that have worked with the code base for a year or two in most cases. It has the disadvantage of meaning that when the team is focused on NuBit development, B&C Exchange development necessarily gets less attention and work.

The NuBit 2.1 release has been a major undertaking. We thought we were nearly done with it a month ago, but testing revealed some important performance issues that were difficult and time consuming to track down and remedy. The NuBits 2.1 release is very close to being ready for beta release. As a result, the team is once again turning its focus to B&C Exchange. The B&C Exchange 4.0 release will receive additional testing in the coming days. Over the course of the last month, glv has continued to make progress on developing the exchange messages (to be released after 4.0).

Sigmike and I are discussing a couple ways we could bring additional developers to the project to speed implementation. While I regard the pace of development as a disappointment to date, we have effectively conserved our funding and I am more convinced that B&C Exchange has a viable design than I was six months ago. Progress has taken longer than expected due to lower availability of developers than was expected, but the project is still very viable and is in fact moving forward.

Are we going to see B&CExchange in operation in 2016?
--------------------
Perhaps in very late 2016, because we have only three part time developers.

Just to quickly follow up on Jordan's words regarding the development pace. Things slowed down a bit late last year because of the holidays, traveling, and new year administrative tasks. Things should be picking up from here on out. 4.0 development/testing is in full swing. Once everything is cleared BlockShares owners will be able to start voting on the available assets for trading and reputed signers.

Year end/start is a very busy time for people, and Nu had a similar development slump around the same time last year. I'll try to produce some regular updates regarding testing and development from here on out as well.
762  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Discussion (Altcoins) / The DEX (Decentralized Exchange) Thread on: January 24, 2016, 04:54:21 AM
IMO, one necessary piece of the decentralized and autonomous puzzle that gets wrongly neglected is decentralized exchanges (DEXs.) I think that, for good reason, DEXs will be a big market in the cryptocurrency space. As time goes on, more and more centralized exchanges keep:

1. Going bankrupt
2. Getting hacked
3. Offering little to no transparency
4. Operating on fractional reserves
5. Faking volume
6. Onerous KYC/AML requirements
7. Withdraw delays/holds
8. Participating in insider trading
9. Limitations due to regulations and preferential treatment when deciding which cryptocurrencies are added
10. Delisting & enlisting blackmail
11. Withdraw delays due to verification/KYC/security reasons

Eventually, due to the above issues, people will transition to decentralized exchanges. DEXs are necessary for completely decentralized and autonomous interactions.

This thread is intended to track the development and features of DEXs. Feel free to bump the thread with updates or new projects. I am not really sure which design is best at this point. This is intended to be a neutral thread, but feel free to discuss the pros and cons of each implementation. Which design is the best, or is the best solution yet to come? What ideas (if any) do you have to improve the DEXs' designs? Do you know of any other DEXs in existence/development?

(in alphabetical order)

0x Protocol
- Status: Released
- Website: https://0xproject.com/
- Exchange: https://0xproject.com/portal
- Whitepaper: https://0xproject.com/pdfs/0x_white_paper.pdf
Strengths:
- Working implementation
- Fully autonomous and decentralized
- 0x is a DEX "fat protocol" that other projects are building on top of, thus liquidity will be shared among multiple exchanges
Weaknesses:
- Only compatible with Ethereum and/or ERC-20 tokens

B&C Exchange
- Status: Vaporware Dead Project?
- Website: https://bcexchange.org/
- BCT Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1033773.0
- Whitepaper: https://bcexchange.org/assets/Blocks_&_Chains_Decentralized_Exchange.pdf
Strengths:
- Decentralized and autonomous network of multi-signature addresses
- No derivatives or IOUs (for cryptocurrencies)
- FIAT derivatives
Weaknesses:
- Vaporware

Bancor
- Status: Released
- Website: https://www.bancor.network/
- BCT Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1789222.0
Strengths:
- Working implementation
- Fully autonomous and decentralized
- Allows straightforward and simple (Shapeshift-like) exchanges
- A novel and elegant solution to the liquidity problem most DEXs and decentralized/autonomous stablecoins face
Weaknesses:
- Only compatible with Ethereum and/or ERC-20 tokens


BitBay
- Status: Released
- Website: http://bitbay.market/
- BCT Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=890531
Strengths:
- Working implementation
- Fully decentralized peer-to-peer trading via atomic swaps
- No derivatives, multi-signature gateways, or IOUs
- Effectively, the DEX feature of BitBay is a decentralized version of LocalBitcoins
- The only DEX that allows for FIAT/Crypto trading without gateways, derivatives, or IOUs
Weaknesses:
- To be updated once I have time to do more research and better analyze it...

Bitshares
- Status: Released
- SPV Wallet: https://wallet.bitshares.org/?r=del.coinhoarder
- Website: https://bitshares.org/
- Forums: https://bitsharestalk.org/
Strengths:
- Working SPV implementation- the oldest and most established DEX
- Fully decentralized and autonomous exchange
- Commodity, FIAT, Equity, and Index-based derivatives are available for trading
- Advanced user issued asset and account features
- Decentralized referral reward accounts
- Allows for price discovery of multiple decentralized exchange's IOUs (a poloBTC will be of different value than a bittrexBTC will be different than a bitfinexBTC due to differentiating dynamics)
Weaknesses:
- Systematic risk of decentralized and autonomous derivatives (optional)
- Trusted third party risks of IOUs and On/Off ramps (optional)

Blocknet
- Status: Released
- Website: http://blocknet.co/
- BCT Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=829576.0
Strengths:
- Fully decentralized peer to peer trading (via atomic swaps)
- No derivatives, multi-signature gateways, or IOUs
Weaknesses:
- You must download the entire blockchain of each coin you want to trade, have the wallets running, and configure the RPC username/pass*
- Trading is only working on the command line and/or in the GUI, but not user-friendly at all.

InstantDEX
- Status: Released
- Website: http://www.instantdex.org/
- BCT Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=684090.0
- Forum: http://forum.instantdex.org/
Strengths:
- Working implementation
- Fully decentralized and autonomous peer-to-peer trading (via atomic swaps)
- Can access several different sources of liquidity, including Nxt assets like Multigateway coins and centralized exchanges via API keys
Weaknesses:
- You can only trade IOUs in the form of Nxt user issued assets
- You must download the entire blockchain of each coin you want to trade, have the wallets running, and configure the RPC username/pass*

Waves
- Status: Released
- Website: https://wavesplatform.com/
- BCT Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1387944.0
- Wallet (Chrome App): https://wavesplatform.com/#downloads_anchor
Strengths:
- Working implementation
- SPV wallet
- FIAT IOUs via gateways
- Centralized order matching allows quicker trades and defense against frontrunning
- Utilizes multi-signature gateways allowing deposit/withdrawal of real cryptocurrency
Weaknesses:
- Centralized order matching and gateways make Waves more centralized than most other DEXs
- You can only trade IOUs via gateways or other user issued assets.

* You will not have to download the entire blockchains once SPV nodes are made compatible. It is also possible to make a multi-coin SPV wallet so you don't have to download the blockchains, and you don't need to run several cryptocurrency's wallets separately.


Try to stay on topic. I will only delete posts sparingly... please no trolling or personal attacks, and try to make sure your post has some substance.
763  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Should Boolberry implement a tail emission? on: January 24, 2016, 03:51:04 AM
I have an idea... a dynamic tail emission.

I like that concept (because it is flexible) but think the precise implementation needs more thought.
I think it could certainly be improved by some peer review. It may be the only sure-fire way to secure a PoW cryptocurrency with a diminishing block reward. Otherwise, if price drops so much then you become vulnerable, or if the transactions per second drop then you become vulnerable. With something such as this you would never be vulnerable (if the kinks could be worked out.) The only setback I can think of is maybe the value of the token will suffer. Then again, the value of the token will plummet towards zero if it is successful attacked, so maybe the economic setbacks are acceptable.
764  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 24, 2016, 03:28:48 AM
Is it possible to create interactive media where some of the participants (maybe providers of content or interaction) are motivated primarily by economic income (or a combination of the holistic benefits and income)? What are the examples out there already in cyberspace? The examples that come to my mind seem very limited in participation, e.g. live nude chat, typing job, creative job such as graphic arts or writing. Are there any music distribution sites where the providers of content are being paid by the consumers of content? Isn't it so competitive to get your music heard, that you must not charge for it?

Can anyone comment?

Of course people pay for music... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_on-demand_streaming_music_services
This is a good article: http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-rockstars-cryptocurrency-music-industry/
The Bitshares ecosystem has been working on an interesting solution which allows listeners to invest in the success of an artist or band, and profit off of finding good talent early in their career: http://peertracks.com/

I think social media can possibly be taken over by cryptocurrency/decentralized/blockchain technology. Think about it... Facebook has a market capitalization of 266.3 billion. What if a portion of their net profit was distributed to its users instead? Which service would you use... one that makes money off of you providing you nothing in return, or one that pays you to use its service? There are likely a few projects attempting to capitalize on this space. The only one off the top of my head I can name is Synereo and I am on the fence as to whether it is is a legit project or a P&D... I am waiting on the sidelines for now. http://www.synereo.com/

Cutting out the middlemen in "live nude chat, typing job, creative job such as graphic arts or writing" could prove to be a lucrative decentralized business plan as well. Any business that is ran by middlemen can be eliminated by decentralized technology. People call all these random features "gimmicks", but they fail to understand that we are cutting out middlemen with each feature added. Coins like Nxt and Bitshares are attempting to become the Google/Apple of blockchains, and this is a successful model in my opinion. That is why I support them so. All of these "cryptocurrencies are only supposed to be used as currencies" types really annoy me, because I think decentralized technology is going to be very disruptive in a lot of industries.
765  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Should Boolberry implement a tail emission? on: January 24, 2016, 03:06:41 AM
We can agree to disagree, but I don't think there is any solution when the value is too low.

At some point it is just time to consider the experiment a worthy one that didn't work out. This is not meant as a comment on BBR or any other particular coin, I'm speaking in generalities. It might even apply to Bitcoin some day.




Most PoW coins do not have a tail emission. This seems like a good economic experiment.

I don't think he is "anti-tail emission". In fact, he said that he thinks that it will help with the issue. It really couldn't do anything but help with the problem it intends to fix, but I suppose Smooth is correct that value still matters.

I have an idea... a dynamic tail emission. Clients could publish the current value of the cryptocurrency, and the median is used to calculate what the emission should be. The dynamic tail emission should only be in effect if X number or X percentage of nodes are publishing the current value, otherwise it defaults to a set amount. You can weight it by stake to combat Sybil. It can be hard coded that the tail emission should be X amount of USD a day, which should be an amount that effectively secures the blockchain, and the cryptocurrency autonomously adjusts it to ensure its security.
766  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 24, 2016, 02:49:22 AM
I was oblivious that there was even a Doge meme circulating through society in 2013.

Perhaps that may of been what you were missing from the equation. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/doge


We will agree to disagree that micro tipping had a great affect as to the success of Dogecoin. I maintain my opinion that it didn't have much to do with its success, although I suppose it couldn't of hurt. The dogetipbot is popular on places like Reddit.. where Dogecoin initially took off.
767  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Should Boolberry implement a tail emission? on: January 24, 2016, 12:23:29 AM
Some of those coins that have been attacked had tail emissions, I think. For example QRK:

"Total of 247 million QRK will be mined in ~ 6 months, after that ~ 1 million QRK p.a."

It isn't clear whether a tail emission even helps if the value of the coin drops so much that the cost to attack is negligible. It may or may not help if the value is high enough. (I think it does but that is just my opinion.)
To be fair, I mention up-thread that "tail emissions" may not be sufficient protection. I had forgot that Quark had a tail emission, so my bad... it has been a while. I stated up-thread that a larger tail emission, or a whole different solution may be necessary. You will not like this, but a Vericoin-like approach may be necessary (the cryptocurrency eventually switches from PoW to PoS after its initial distribution phase.) Alternatively, if you want to remain purely a PoW-base cryptocurrency, a larger "tail emission" may be the only solution.
768  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 24, 2016, 12:15:31 AM
Fuserleer pretty much hit the nail on the head. Dogecoin is like the anti-Anonymint. Dogecoin's success has nothing to do with the underlying technology it is based on. Dogecoin made cryptocurrency fun, funny, and relate-able. Comparing the first Dogecoin conference to a Bitcoin conference... people were dressed in costumes like a comic con, there was a decentralized dance party, and people were generally there to have fun (rather than network and talk about the technology like what is done at Bitcoin conferences.) Dogecoin is all about having fun, which happens to introduce people to decentralized cryptocurrency at the same time. Tying itself to the internet sensation that is Doge catapulted the awareness, adoption, and price of Dogecoin.

It was also at the right place at the right time, which is perhaps the greatest reason for its success. It was a perfect storm of multiple factors. It was released towards the peak of the popularity of the Doge meme and size of the Doge community. It was released towards the peak of Bitcoin's awareness in the media. It was released towards the peak of the number of cryptocurrency speculators entering the market. Because of that initial influx of speculators, it now has a wide reaching network effect and a large community of supporters that will (IMO) carry it into the future. It is here to stay.

769  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Should Boolberry implement a tail emission? on: January 24, 2016, 12:00:45 AM
Hi Folk!

Still have no idea, why u think need this tail emission ?
Can someone give clear and short explain of the problem?

Historically, PoW-based cryptocurrencies utilize inflation to subsidize the mining efforts that secure their blockchain. Towards the end of a cryptocurrency's emission curve (or inflation stage), it is unclear whether transaction fees will be able to effectively secure the cryptocurrency. If there is not enough incentive to mine the cryptocurrency, then miners will move on and mine other cryptocurrencies which leaves the cryptocurrency vulnerable to 51% attacks. Several cryptocurrencies with expedited emission curves, and a finite amount of money supply, have suffered from 51% attacks due to this issue (Quarkcoin to name one.) A "tail emission" is intended to combat this issue by providing incentive for miners to continue mining the cryptocurrency indefinitely. Without a "tail emission", a cryptocurrency would need to increase greatly in value and transactions per second to be able to afford sufficient protection from 51% attacks. Not having a tail emission, or another solution in place, is effectively making an "all or nothing" bet in which the cryptocurrency will end up a huge success or worthless. I would liken a "tail emission" to a "safety net", in case your PoW-base cryptocurrency falls somewhere in-between a huge success and worthless (which, in my opinion, is a likely outcome for Boolberry.)
770  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: Ethereum to go up or down? on: January 23, 2016, 11:45:23 PM
I guess the answer was up Smiley


Its what ive been telling everybody for months.

I still maintain the opinion that it will see all time lows sometime this year, but thus far you are correct.  Smiley
771  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 23, 2016, 10:23:14 PM
Here we go again...every thread!
Yes... the omniscient TPMB has spoken.

I don't expect a 50+ year old man to understand why Dogecoin was successful, and I'll simply leave it at that.

Good day.
772  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 23, 2016, 10:14:29 PM
So after all, we see you were just bullshitting. As usual.

No, I am sincere in the fact that micro-transactions is not the reason for Dogecoin's success.

Duh. That is what I am saying too.

That is the definition of backpedaling, which you are certainly a master at because you are never wrong.
773  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 23, 2016, 10:10:07 PM
So after all, we see you were just bullshitting. As usual.

No, I am sincere in the fact that micro-transactions is not the reason for Dogecoin's success. In fact, I question your intellect if you truly think that is the reason for Dogecoin's success.
774  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 23, 2016, 10:02:21 PM
My job is not to educate you TPTB, you can figure out why Dogecoin was a success on your own. You have still yet to come to the correct conclusion. It is not my fault you post in every thread and claim to be a know it all on every subject. I was posting in the altcoin subforum on every thread long before you came along. I was simply pointing out that you are incorrect about why Dogecoin was successful. I have no interest in educating you as to the right answer.

Also, you can stop playing the victim and crying about "ad hominem" bs. I was very civil with you until you started quipping your ad hominems toward me... everyone knows what I'm talking about here because it is the way you speak to everyone as if everyone is inferior. You are the definition of a grumpy old man (I could elaborate but I will try to be nice and stop there.) Furthermore, I am annoyed with you passing off your opinions as factual statements, or basing factual statements on opinions, which amounts to FUD. You attack every cryptocurrency without being able to deliver a solution. Those that can't do spam internet forums. I know that to be true, that is why I am here spamming myself.

This subforum is not called "altcoin technical discussion", it is called "altcoin discussion". Sorry, I do not want to spend 1 week month reading all of your posts, the rantings of a lunatic rather, just so I can figure out what you're talking about. You are angry I'm not explaining my point in this thread to you, but you fail to realize it is the same thing you do when you say "read my thread" as if it isn't a trillion words long.
775  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 23, 2016, 08:44:42 PM
So to be clear the marketing strategy of DOGECOIN was HOPE

Wrong, try again.

If you read the research on why micro-tipping is uneconomic for humans, you will understand that masking HOPE in the delusion of GENEROSITY (and other memes about better society) has the underlying generative essence of HOPE.

Edit: and you are certainly a prime B-lister (all elbows and acrimony) example of being deluded by HOPE and not using sober, detailed analysis.  Tongue

Edit#2: so the best marketing strategy would be the one that fostered HOPE, yet was not a delusion and could actually effect world change!
Come on, a self-proclaimed genius ought to be able to figure this out. You are still wrong about why Dogecoin was successful. Hint: It has nothing to do with micro-tipping.

And enough about this nonsense about me being a B lister. I know that I am a B lister (actually I am probably a C or D lister at best.) It is you that is delusional in thinking that you are an A lister. You tried running with the big dogs as "AnonyMint" in the Bitcoin development subforum, but the true A listers picked your half-baked ideas apart. So, you tucked your tail, changed your name, and retreated into the alternative cryptocurrency subforum far away from the true A listers so that no one would be able to point out how dumb your ideas are.
776  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 23, 2016, 08:17:11 PM
So to be clear the marketing strategy of DOGECOIN was HOPE

Wrong, try again.
777  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 23, 2016, 07:48:54 PM
Lol of course TPTB thinks that the greatest marketing strategy (in more recent times... most successful was Litecoin) in the history of altcoins was flawed

Lying to myself will lead me to failure. Therefor I am honest about the research documents I quoted which explain why micro-tipping will ALWAYS fail.

150 IQ, yet you still can't understand why Dogecoin was successful.  Roll Eyes

You are a B lister that has convinced himself he is an A lister.
778  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: Ethereum at 3rd place on coinmarketcap.com on: January 23, 2016, 07:44:36 PM
Where do people even buy ethereum shit coin?

It literally isn't available on any of the exchanges that matter. It's not Chinese exchanges (which basically means any other exchange it is on is automatically worthless/meaningless), not on BTC-e, not on Coinbase.

What other crap exchanges are there that people use? Probably available on Craptsy or Kraken, equally shit exchanges. Lol.

Do you even reading comprehension bro? See the post above yours.
779  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Technology vs. Marketing. Which is more important? on: January 23, 2016, 07:19:41 PM
Appears that Dogecoin's marketing strategy has no long-term legs ...

I can understand how it might appear so to observers outside the domain.

You're opting for the “coincidence” explanation, then?

Cheers

Graham

No I wrote that they got the initial boost for being the first to trying micro-tipping, but that micro-tipping is fundamentally flawed as a paradigm, thus as the initial hype fades and everyone who has tried micro-tipping now realizes it is just a one-time delusion that can't be repeated.

Lol of course TPTB thinks that the greatest marketing strategy (in more recent times... most successful was Litecoin) in the history of altcoins was flawed, and of course he thinks he can do better... so typical.  Roll Eyes

Everyone is forgetting a very simple marketing scheme that made arguably the most successful alternative cryptocurrency what it is today. "Litecoin is the silver to Bitcoin's gold"
780  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][DCR] Decred - Hybrid PoW/PoS | btcsuite Devs | Tons of New Features | Go on: January 23, 2016, 05:51:25 AM
Missed again!

I haven't come across you in years. I am amazed you are not locked up in the looney bin by now...

My post was not directed at you.. I'm not going to waste my time figuring out what you're talking about. I just took note of the general discourse and thought I'd voice my generalized opinion on the current topic.
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