[CLOSED] S.DICE - SatoshiDICE 100% Dividend-Paying Asset on MPEx

[Deprived]

I don't see any statement that only 10 million are trading on MPEx.

Look at the accounts.  10% MPEx dividend.
Look at the dividend paid on MPEx - 10% of profits.

Before today only 10 million were active (let alone traded) on MPEx.

[Namworld]

Well because evoorhees pays the dividend and only 10% need to go out? I see it more as a convenience, instead of having to deposit say 20k BTC, pay out 20k, withdraw 18k

[totaleclipseofthebank]

530,000 shares just sold

250,000 are left at .0044

[Deprived]

Well because evoorhees pays the dividend and only 10% need to go out? I see it more as a convenience, instead of having to deposit say 20k BTC, pay out 20k, withdraw 18k

Why he did it is neither here nor there - fact is only 10% of shares were issued on MPEx.  He's confirmed there were other private owners of portions of the other 90% - so very clearly that 90% was unissued on MPEx.

I repeat yet again: give an example of that pricing restriction applying without the contract otherwise being broken.  If you believe my interpretation is wrong then give an example of YOUR interpretation being applied in practice.  If you try it with a stock-spilt you'll immediately see it makes no sense - as the pricing would be wrong plus there'd be nothing being sold to HAVE a price anyway.

[Bowjob]

Can we all stop bitching and just buy the cheap dice? Thank me later

[Deprived]

530,000 shares just sold

250,000 are left at .0044

Yeah the debate may well seem meaningless (I'm guessing it's only the slowness of deposits to MPEx that have made the block last this long)  - however:

1.  Contracts need to be respected.
2.  It'll become relevant again when next 5 million/10 million go up after this lot sell.

[totaleclipseofthebank]

530,000 shares just sold

250,000 are left at .0044

Yeah the debate may well seem meaningless (I'm guessing it's only the slowness of deposits to MPEx that have made the block last this long)  - however:

1.  Contracts need to be respected.
2.  It'll become relevant again when next 5 million/10 million go up after this lot sell.

aaaaandddd its gone

[Namworld]

Well because evoorhees pays the dividend and only 10% need to go out? I see it more as a convenience, instead of having to deposit say 20k BTC, pay out 20k, withdraw 18k

Why he did it is neither here nor there - fact is only 10% of shares were issued on MPEx.  He's confirmed there were other private owners of portions of the other 90% - so very clearly that 90% was unissued on MPEx.

I repeat yet again: give an example of that pricing restriction applying without the contract otherwise being broken.  If you believe my interpretation is wrong then give an example of YOUR interpretation being applied in practice.  If you try it with a stock-spilt you'll immediately see it makes no sense - as the pricing would be wrong plus there'd be nothing being sold to HAVE a price anyway.

There's no such thing as being issued on MPEx or any exchange. Shares already issued being added to a stock exchange does not constitute issuance.

To be issued, new authorized shares or authorized share never held privately must be put in private hands/stock treasury. That's what share issuance is.

[Bowjob]

It's gone, I was wrong about the breach of contract. There is no breach of contract.

[Deprived]

Well because evoorhees pays the dividend and only 10% need to go out? I see it more as a convenience, instead of having to deposit say 20k BTC, pay out 20k, withdraw 18k

Why he did it is neither here nor there - fact is only 10% of shares were issued on MPEx.  He's confirmed there were other private owners of portions of the other 90% - so very clearly that 90% was unissued on MPEx.

I repeat yet again: give an example of that pricing restriction applying without the contract otherwise being broken.  If you believe my interpretation is wrong then give an example of YOUR interpretation being applied in practice.  If you try it with a stock-spilt you'll immediately see it makes no sense - as the pricing would be wrong plus there'd be nothing being sold to HAVE a price anyway.

There's no such thing as being issued on MPEx or any exchange.

Really?

SO why does the contract say : "The representatives of SatoshiDice solemnly promise and warrant never to issue more shares on any other venue"

Clearly whoever wrote the the contract believes shares can be issued on an exchange or that sentence would make no sense (as the "any other venue" part would be meaningless).

EDIT: To show the implications of your semi-interpretation, were you correct then evorhees could list S.DICE on a different exchange and sell more of the 90% there at .0001.  That would be possible as you think issuing has already occurred in every possible sense for all 100 million - so none of the restrictions apply (The restriction on other exchanges only applies to "issue more").

Do you believe that's allowed?  Does MPEx?

And you still havent given any example of where the pricing restriction on sales applies ...

[Namworld]

There's no such thing as being issued on MPEx or any exchange.

Really?

SO why does the contract say : "The representatives of SatoshiDice solemnly promise and warrant never to issue more shares on any other venue"

Clearly whoever wrote the the contract believes shares can be issued on an exchange or that sentence would make no sense (as the "any other venue" part would be meaningless).

EDIT: To show the implications of your semi-interpretation, were you correct then evorhees could list S.DICE on a different exchange and sell more of the 90% there at .0001.  That would be possible as you think issuing has already occurred in every possible sense for all 100 million - so none of the restrictions apply (The restriction on other exchanges only applies to "issue more").

Do you believe that's allowed?  Does MPEx?

And you still havent given any example of where the pricing restriction on sales applies ...

I mean there is no such thing as being issued in this case, since the shares were already issued. If they were authorized shares being attributed, that would be issuance, for which the purchase by individuals, or issuance, can be done through any stock market or even out of stock markets. But this is not the case. All 100 million shares were already active shares held by individuals. Why cut my quote? It meant just that, it's not issuance wherever Evoorhees would decide to sell those shares as they are already issued shares.

Evoorhees & Mircea both approved. MPEx believe it's allowed, I also believe so.

As for pricing restriction, it could apply if the company would need to expand and the creation of more share was approved. If the expansion expectation of gains vs the amount of extra share created would balance each other, then it would be fair to assume issuing more shares at current market price would not dilute each share valuation and price would remain the same. Although I think these are more generic clauses simply for the form, rather than anything evoorhees ever planned to do, IMO. Plus would require approval of shareholders through a vote I believe.

[Deprived]

There's no such thing as being issued on MPEx or any exchange.

Really?

SO why does the contract say : "The representatives of SatoshiDice solemnly promise and warrant never to issue more shares on any other venue"

Clearly whoever wrote the the contract believes shares can be issued on an exchange or that sentence would make no sense (as the "any other venue" part would be meaningless).

EDIT: To show the implications of your semi-interpretation, were you correct then evorhees could list S.DICE on a different exchange and sell more of the 90% there at .0001.  That would be possible as you think issuing has already occurred in every possible sense for all 100 million - so none of the restrictions apply (The restriction on other exchanges only applies to "issue more").

Do you believe that's allowed?  Does MPEx?

And you still havent given any example of where the pricing restriction on sales applies ...

I mean there is no such thing as being issued in this case, since the shares were already issued. If they were authorized shares being attributed, that would be issuance, for which the purchase by individuals, or issuance, can be done throguh any stock market or even out of any stock market. But this is not the case. All 100 million shares were already active shares held by individuals. Why cut my quote? It means just that, it's not issuance wherever Evoorhees would decide to sell those shares as they are already issued shares.

Evoorhees & Mircea both approved. MPEx believe it's allowed, I also believe so.

There's no such thing as being issued on MPEx or any exchange. Shares already issued being added to a stock exchange does not constitute issuance.

To be issued, new authorized shares or authorized share never held privately must be put in private hands/stock treasury. That's what share issuance is.

As for pricing restriction, it could apply if the company would need to expand and the creation of more share was approved. If the expansion expectation of gains vs the amount of extra share created would balance each other, then it would be fair to assume issuing more shares at current market price would not dilute each share valuation and price would remain the same. Although I think these are more generic clauses simply for the form, rather than anything evoorhees ever planned to do, IMO.

So you believe the existing 100 million could be listed on any exchange at any price?

If so then I'll concede your argument has some consistency - but the above is a necessary part of your interpretation, as there's no restriction on LISTING on another exchange, just on ISSUING on one.

[MPOE-PR]

Jesus you boys've been busy.

Hey all,

S.DICE will be releasing another 5% stake starting now in five tranches of 1,000,000 shares each. Each tranche will be priced higher than the last. All tranches will be higher than the IPO price but lower than the current market price of around .0071 btc per share. Same rules apply to these shares (100% of net earnings from SD).

First tranche is 0.0044 btc per. Listing is live.

First come first serve

An historic moment. 

And thus your .007 share price was legitimate? If so, then you won't be buying at .0044 and profiting 30% when it reverts back to proper market price in three days?  You are not thinking properly about this.

This.

Or, to quote MP,

<Bowjob> yeah, we gave erik a good scolding
<mircea_popescu> poor guy
<Ukyo> i think his investor
<mircea_popescu> and then you wonder why people don't want to list
<Ukyo> needed cash
<Ukyo> smoething happened
<mircea_popescu> HE IS GIVING YOU FREE MONEY
<Ukyo> or
<mircea_popescu> you are scolding him for it
<Ukyo> SOMETHING HAPPEEND
<Bowjob> i told him i trusted just judgement.. so its all good
<Ukyo> and we getting screwed
<Ukyo> lol
<Bowjob> in the end
<Bowjob> lol
<Ukyo> [02:55] <mircea_popescu> HE IS GIVING YOU FREE MONEY
<maximian> I'm a greedy bastard! I want him to give me MOAR FREE MONEY
<Ukyo> Let the truth ring out
<Ukyo> ppl need to stop complaining
<Bowjob> Yes.. Mammon possessed me

1. If .007 was the "proper" price, then you should have sold shares at that price. Shareholders now have to hope that the price rises back to the "proper" price. In the meantime, anyone that was thinking of selling shares is screwed.

Man, thinking of. The price was 7x for a week or more, how long does this thinking take?

3. Why would any rational person pay more than 0.0044 for a share, when you are just going to dump a bunch of shares on the market at 0.0044 again?

He just said each will be higher than previous, did he?

The fact is that you screwed your shareholders. You should have consulted with someone before you made this blunder.

Something doth not become a blunder just because it catches you personally off foot. The world is wider than the sphere around your nose.

.0044 is up significantly from their last round @ .0037 and gives S.DICE a USD valuation of $8mil+

This is probably a better way to look at things. For the sane long term investor a new floor just got put in, and that floor is WAY above his entry point a quarter ago. Great news by any standard.

the question is WHY

what is the point of dumping shares 37% below market price, screwing over your shareholders, just to get 4400btc (chump change) when operating income is 5000btc per week

A majority of shareholders bought at 3x.

[Namworld]

Yes, I'm applying the definition of issuance to the letter. The sale/attribution of authorized shares (new or pre-existing) to investors.

In this case it was not a funding IPO but a privately held "corporation" for which the owner had 100% of the shares issued to himself, from which he sold his stake.

That is the way I see it.

Seems like S.DICE is back to 0.007 already.

[EskimoBob]

Lets get few things straight.

1) Evoorheese starts a project - sdice
2) Gets an idea to cash in about 6 years of possible profits (if he is still in business)
3) Pervert Popescu invents ridiculous number of shares and evoorhees obviously agrees.  
4) Now, 10% of that huge number gets floated (public float) in popescus bazaar.
Now, pay really close attention.
5) Only 10% of those shares where sold to the public investor via IPO.

Question is, can he just take X% from his private stash and dump it on the market, by adding it to the public float without an secondary offer, while reducing his holding % of the whole sdice?

Forget the splits. Stock split is completely different animal and has nothing to do with the current situation.

[MPOE-PR]

What puzzles me is this:

From the S.DICE prospectus (referring to issuance of further shares):

"and b) at a price no less than the higher of the 1 day average price and the 30 day average price then current on MPEx "

Was the 1 day average price on MPEX REALLY .0044 or less?

NO.

The prospectus contained a clause specifically to avoid this.  I presume MPEx will now delist S.DICE for breaking its contract.  GG all.

No, that's a misreading of the contract. The whole story (abridged for brevity) is here:

(a)The representatives of SatoshiDice have elected to divide SatoshiDice into 100`000`000 (one hundred million) equal non-voting shares

(b)Based on [...] the representatives of SatoshiDice have elected to offer in this IPO a total of 10`000`000 (ten million) shares, as follows :

(c)The representatives of SatoshiDice warrant that no further shares will be offered by them for a period of 30 days from the date these offered shares are sold. The representatives of SatoshiDice further warrant that they will never sell more than half the total shares.

So. 10mn offered in IPO. Not more than 50mn to be offered at all without further issuance. No sooner than 30 days after IPO closes can shares of the 10,000,001 - 50,000,000 range be offered on sale.

IPO ended Jan 3rd, was announced at the time. Erik had his shares added Feb 3rd. Today is the 5th.

The bit you quote refers to further issuance, such as if S.DICE decided to acquire PokerStars in a cash-and-share deal, issue 80mn shares so the total float now becomes 180mn, give them to PokerStars in exchange for their shares but NOT at a value under par as described. As per (c) Erik/S.DICE management would have to buy at least half of them. This is highly speculative, very far ahead in the future sort of stuff, but it's in the contract anyway.

[MPOE-PR]

I think this picture should help people understand what happened. How many of you would be happy to see you 401k or your IRA do this so that "buyers might appreciate the opportunity to get shares cheaper"?

Do you see that little foot all the way to 0.0008 there? Or not looking at that atm?

so no new shares were issued, only put on the market by the current owner, evoorhees.

This is correct.

If someone thinks the price should be higher, they should simply buy evoorhees's shares and put them back on the market at a higher price. Too bad mpex charges such a ridiculous fee to open an account...

Well, if 30 BTC is the problem then 1mn share blocks are squarely out of the question, you know?

Wrong.  Only 10 million shares were issued on MPEx prior to this.  This issues new shares on MPEx.

Well not at all. 100mn shares were issued, 10 mn were sold in the IPO. Some more were sold right now. Why do you think they'd be "freshly issued"?

An authorized share is a share that does not get dividends as it is not held privately (funding shares). S.DICE shares cannot be issued again, they already were. If they were issued, it would dilute the others share out of dividends. There are more shares now trading on MPEx. That's it. I don't consider it share issuance/dilution. 100 million shares were issued of which 100 millions were issued to evoorhees. He then sold 10 million on MPEx. He's now selling 5 million more.

I believe the issuance statement is meant to say than 100 million are to be issued on MPEx or on anywhere else, which would dilute the 100 million already being issued on MPEx.

I don't even see any statement claiming there's only 10 millions shares trading on MPEx. Only that 10 million would be placed for sale out of 100 million being created.

This is correct.

[Deprived]

3. Why would any rational person pay more than 0.0044 for a share, when you are just going to dump a bunch of shares on the market at 0.0044 again?

He just said each will be higher than previous, did he?

No - he said he each 1 million of THIS 5 million will be higher.  He said nothing about further sales thereafter.  The expectation has to be that next time he (or another private investor) wants cash fast they'll dump again.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing of course - but will tend to depress the price I'd expect.

Just to clear up one last thing for me.  Do you also agree that nothing in the contract prevents him listing S.DICE on another exchange and selling some of the current 100 million shares there?  (Not suggesting that he should or would).

[MPOE-PR]

No - he said he each 1 million of THIS 5 million will be higher.  He said nothing about further sales thereafter.  The expectation has to be that next time he (or another private investor) wants cash fast they'll dump again.

This is in principle true, sure.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing of course - but will tend to depress the price I'd expect.

If it does manage to keep the price more or less around actual share value (whatever that may be) we'll all be happy.

Just to clear up one last thing for me.  Do you also agree that nothing in the contract prevents him listing S.DICE on another exchange and selling some of the current 100 million shares there?  (Not suggesting that he should or would).

The representatives of SatoshiDice solemnly promise and warrant never to issue more shares on any other venue nor in any way to dilute existing shareholders at any point in the future. All future share issuance will be made only a) subject to approval by MPEx and b) at a price no less than the higher of the 1 day average price and the 30 day average price then current on MPEx ;

Seems pretty clear cut to me. No further issuance (over the 100mn already issued) on any other venue, no further issuance (over the 100mn already issued) on this venue unless it's both approved and non-dilutive as defined.

Otherwise PTs are and always have been perfectly legitimate, and deliberately so.

[Deprived]

Seems pretty clear cut to me. No further issuance (over the 100mn already issued) on any other venue, no further issuance (over the 100mn already issued) on this venue unless it's both approved and non-dilutive as defined.

Otherwise PTs are and always have been perfectly legitimate, and deliberately so.

I wasn't asking about a pass-though but about a cross-listing (of some of the existing 100 million) on a second exchange.  In a cross-listing the shares on the other exchange wouldn't be represented at all on MPEx - which is different to a (properly run) pass-through where each share in the pass-through is backed by a share purchased through and tracked by MPEx.