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Author Topic: bitfloor needs your help!  (Read 155369 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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September 05, 2012, 01:07:30 AM
 #241

it seems likely that BTC sent in AFTER the hack announcement may be set aside in an eventual settlement

BTC sent in after the hack will be going directly to the attacker.
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September 05, 2012, 01:07:47 AM
 #242

it seems likely that BTC sent in AFTER the hack announcement may be set aside in an eventual settlement

What about the people who don't go here. Shouldn't the site have a warning or an e-mail blast? This is kinda like lets post on bitcointalk and hope everyone knows to go read there before sending or god forbid an automated system since they advertized having api for that very reason.
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September 05, 2012, 01:09:38 AM
 #243

So how do i get back that 20 dollars I deposited right before your announcement? Shouldn't have left your account accepting deposits.
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September 05, 2012, 01:09:54 AM
 #244

Making money by pushing money around is risky.

You want to take zero risk? Open a coffee shop.
LoL! Spoken like a total n00b! The only risk-free business is borrowing from the Federal Reserve at 0% and lending out at 5%+, and only Too-Big-To-Fail banks get to do that.

Correct. I am still a n00b in the bitcoin world only being in it for about a year.

Now the money part I am complete n00b. I let my wife handle the finances.

Now the technical part of bitcoin I am able to understand...

the money part.... not so much Smiley

I got burned and that is that.

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repentance
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September 05, 2012, 01:10:12 AM
 #245


Maybe it's not necessary to convince everybody. Let it go to court. Let the settlements be decided. Then give each plaintiff the choice of whether to be paid out in USD or in Bitfloor stock. Ownership in the company would then be divided proportionately among all those who opted for stock. The dollars remaining in Bitfloor's coffers would be distributed proportionately to all those who opted for money. It would be up to the court to decide whether to distribute all of the USD to those requesting the monetary compensation option or to hold back an amount in proportion to the balances of those who opted for stock compensation and then issue a one-time dividend of that remaining amount to the new shareholders.


A court will order compensation in USD.  They're not going to fuck around consulting creditors about what they want - if credtors could agree with Bitfloor on that, then the matter wouldn't be before a court in the first place.

Also, before initiating convoluted court cases, it's wise to remember that the legal fees of an insolvent estate come out of that estate and further reduce the amount available for distribution to creditors.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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September 05, 2012, 01:12:11 AM
 #246

it seems likely that BTC sent in AFTER the hack announcement may be set aside in an eventual settlement

What about the people who don't go here. Shouldn't the site have a warning or an e-mail blast? . . .

As soon as BitFloor realized the extent of their legal problem, they shut down the site, contacted legal counsel and haven't brought the site back up or said another word here on bitcointalk (as I would expect their lawyers would advise them).

What is their responsibility prior to their realization of how deep they were?  Did they act in good faith, or was there intentional fraud?  This is yet to be determined, but my personal suspicions are that they have acted in good faith (though poor security) so far.

The quality of posts has dropped to such a low level that all users who are participating in a paid signature campaign are added to my ignore list. If you'd like a copy of the list to improve your browsing experience, you can find it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=973843.0 (Updated 2016-1-4)
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September 05, 2012, 01:12:27 AM
 #247

Correct. I am still a n00b in the bitcoin world only being in it for about a year.

Now the money part I am complete n00b. I let my wife handle the finances.

Now the technical part of bitcoin I am able to understand...

the money part.... not so much Smiley

I got burned and that is that.
I didn't mean a n00b about Bitcoin or about money. I meant a n00b about business. If your impression is that running a coffee shop is risk-free, then I would advise you never to open a coffee shop.
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September 05, 2012, 01:12:44 AM
 #248

The only people profiting from bitcoin are hackers. Fuck this shit.

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September 05, 2012, 01:16:02 AM
 #249

A court will order compensation in USD.  They're not going to fuck around consulting creditors about what they want - if credtors could agree with Bitfloor on that, then the matter wouldn't be before a court in the first place.
Not necessarily. I've been a beneficiary in a class action lawsuit in which I was given options about how I wanted to receive settlement. I could opt for a check, or I could opt for a smaller check and some store credit, or I could opt for all store credit (in an amount larger than the check option). I see no reason why I couldn't be given an option regarding Bitfloor of either an ACH deposit of USD or a GLBSE grant of Bitfloor stock.
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September 05, 2012, 01:17:10 AM
 #250

So how do i get back that 20 dollars I deposited right before your announcement? Shouldn't have left your account accepting deposits.
As soon as BitFloor realized they were in deep, they contacted legal counsel, shut down the site, and stopped posting here (as I would expect their lawyers to advise them).  Prior to this, it is my opinion that they acted in naive but good faith to attempt to address the situation as equitably as possible.  I may be wrong and you may disagree, but aside from getting your own legal counsel your recourse is rather limited at the moment.  Such are the risks taken when choosing to engage in business with BitFloor.

The quality of posts has dropped to such a low level that all users who are participating in a paid signature campaign are added to my ignore list. If you'd like a copy of the list to improve your browsing experience, you can find it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=973843.0 (Updated 2016-1-4)
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September 05, 2012, 01:19:22 AM
 #251

I am pretty sure my order did not go through. Just ACH me the amount that I deposited the other day.

Thank you.
Unlikely to occur unless/until BitFloor's legal counsel advises them to proceed.  There is a possibility that this will go to courts to determine what BitFloor's liabilities are and how much (if anything) you will get.

If my order never went through then the money is still 100 percent mine.
You can hope so, but until the Terms Of Service are reviewed and all legal options are considered BitFloor isn't likely to agree with you.

That is bullshit. I have a lot of money held up in this MISTAKE. I am trying really hard not to be one of the bad buys but it is a lot of money Sad In my eyes that is.

Also I TRUST BITCOIN. Just the coin.

Don't worry unclemantis, we USD owners are not the bad guys.  The Marxist lawyers infesting our legal system, and their enabling apologists here, are the bad guys. 

Are we going to let them tell us we have no property rights, "because bitcoin" or "because MFGlobal?"  I say Hell No!

If BitFloor (Roman) doesn't stop listening to them and keeps our USD without our consent, he becomes a bad guy as well.   Undecided

Let's hope he decides to respect common law, common sense, and common decency by returning all USD to the rightful owners ASAP.

No court is going to grant bitcoins equal status to USD.  Bitcoins are ephemeral virtual tokens produced in an experiment which requires willful, voluntary participation (and thus assumption of associated risks/outcomes).

OTOH, USD are the legal tender of the US.  It is beyond ridiculous for BitFloor to steal our USD because of unrelated, unfortunate events pertaining to bitcoins.

Everyone owed USD by BitFloor should let them know we aren't playing, by sending him a Letter of Demand.  You don't have to have/be a lawyer to write/send one.

Until there is an official bankruptcy filing, no legal shield exists (besides TOS?) to insulate BitFloor from our lawful demands.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be controversial things" -Peiter Wuille
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September 05, 2012, 01:22:57 AM
 #252

The only people profiting from bitcoin are hackers. Fuck this shit.

I haven't lost anything yet from bitcoin but it does seem like hackers are just having a field day with it.  As much as everyone hates Mt.Gox because of the cost to put money on there and the loss of anonymity, it seems like they have the best methods on there.  I feel like bit floor should have known better than to have all of their coins in a hot wallet after btc-e and other hacks.  
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September 05, 2012, 01:23:31 AM
 #253

Seems to me these places get hacked at a magic number that fits with a lifestyle change.

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September 05, 2012, 01:25:25 AM
 #254

Roman is trying to do the right thing, with all the information he has available. You guys with USD on the site, please be patient. You can see he tried to let you withdraw, but probably thought it better to make sure he wasn't doing anything illegal as Stephen kept reiterating. There's nothing shady about that. Hopefully he will continue with that soon.

Every dealing I've had with Roman has been both pleasant and very professional. His exchange was by far the best Bitcoin exchange we currently have available to us. I never left holdings there, I just bought and withdrew, so I don't have an immediate financial stake in what happens next. But I implore those of you that are owed USD and BTC to give him chance to settle things in such a way that won't destroy his exchange. Selling securities is one option that could solve this. 24k BTC is a lot but it's not an unrecoverable amount.

How poorly things go from here on out will depend on more than just Roman. Please consider your demands and actions carefully.


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whitslack
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September 05, 2012, 01:32:48 AM
 #255

Every dealing I've had with Roman has been both pleasant and very professional. His exchange was by far the best Bitcoin exchange we currently have available to us.
Likewise. A real class act. In retrospect, he is apparently not a security genius, but that doesn't make him evil or even shady. Once the legal system gets involved, everything slows down to a rate even slower than the Post Office. It's unbearable for those of us accustomed to the lightning-paced world of Bitcoin and the Internet in general, but the legal system is just ploddingly slow, and we'll have to accept that. Roman may not be responding to us right now, but that is because his hands are tied at present by the legal system. He's waiting for it to catch up just as much as we are.
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September 05, 2012, 01:32:59 AM
 #256

Seems to me these places get hacked at a magic number that fits with a lifestyle change.
As much as everyone hates Mt.Gox because of the cost to put money on there and the loss of anonymity, it seems like they have the best methods on there.

Don't forget that we don't know everything. It's perfectly possible that other exchanges are being hacked (broadly speaking) for less than "lifestyle change" amounts, but the operators choose to eat the losses themselves and keep operating (cf. BTC-E a few weeks ago).

It's also perfectly possible that other exchanges are being hacked in "lifestyle change" amounts but they continue to operate in a combination Ponzi/Flying Dutchman mode, accepting deposits and cheerfully reporting "balances" that are pure fiction, hoping that someday they'll make enough "profit" to earn their way back to solvency, or just because they can't bring themselves to admit that things are broken. The deeper the lies go, the harder it is to come clean.

If an exchange was doing that, some people would probably hold them up as a shining example of a well-run exchange that was impervious to hacks.

iCEBREAKER
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September 05, 2012, 01:36:08 AM
 #257

Roman is trying to do the right thing, with all the information he has available. You guys with USD on the site, please be patient. You can see he tried to let you withdraw, but probably thought it better to make sure he wasn't doing anything illegal as Stephen kept reiterating. There's nothing shady about that. Hopefully he will continue with that soon.

Every dealing I've had with Roman has been both pleasant and very professional. His exchange was by far the best Bitcoin exchange we currently have available to us. I never left holdings there, I just bought and withdrew, so I don't have an immediate financial stake in what happens next. But I implore those of you that are owed USD and BTC to give him chance to settle things in such a way that won't destroy his exchange. Selling securities is one option that could solve this. 24k BTC is a lot but it's not an unrecoverable amount.

How poorly things go from here on out will depend on more than just Roman. Please consider your demands and actions carefully.

I am very willing to wait to withdraw my USD until BitFloor.com has been audited and secured.  That is a perfectly reasonable and desirable course of action.

I am not willing to wait to withdraw my USD while overpaid Marxist lawyers debate whether my property is, in fact, actually mine or simply a means to a communal end.

Common sense, common law, and common decency say that the presumption of ownership remains with the original USD depositors.

That is why I have no patience with anyone willing to entertain/support the amoral, collectivist Marxist lawyer POV of negotiable property rights.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be controversial things" -Peiter Wuille
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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September 05, 2012, 01:37:02 AM
 #258

Quote
Roman is trying to do the right thing, with all the information he has available. You guys with USD on the site, please be patient. You can see he tried to let you withdraw, but probably thought it better to make sure he wasn't doing anything illegal as Stephen kept reiterating. There's nothing shady about that. Hopefully he will continue with that soon.

Well sadly Stephen was misinformed and likely turned a bad situation into a worse one.  His talk of injunctions and criminal activity were simply false.  I am just not certain if it was coming from a place of intentional malfeasance or simple ignorance.

I do agree with you jwzguy, that bitfloor has a lot going for it and the situation isn't intractable.
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September 05, 2012, 01:38:03 AM
 #259

The only people profiting from bitcoin are hackers. Fuck this shit.

I haven't lost anything yet from bitcoin but it does seem like hackers are just having a field day with it.  As much as everyone hates Mt.Gox because of the cost to put money on there and the loss of anonymity, it seems like they have the best methods on there.  I feel like bit floor should have known better than to have all of their coins in a hot wallet after btc-e and other hacks.  

Any business researching bitcoin and thinking of accepting them will probably also say "fuck this shit" and avoid it altogether. Especially if their legal department has anything to say about it.

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September 05, 2012, 01:38:49 AM
 #260

It's also perfectly possible that other exchanges are being hacked in "lifestyle change" amounts but they continue to operate in a combination Ponzi/Flying Dutchman mode, accepting deposits and cheerfully reporting "balances" that are pure fiction, hoping that someday they'll make enough "profit" to earn their way back to solvency, or just because they can't bring themselves to admit that things are broken. The deeper the lies go, the harder it is to come clean.

If an exchange was doing that, some people would probably hold them up as a shining example of a well-run exchange that was impervious to hacks.
I'll point out that Mt.Gox is a Japanese company. The culture over there is even less inclined to admit fiduciary mistakes than it is in the Western world. Look at TEPCO for a prime example. If the underbelly of Mt.Gox were being eroded away by security breaches, they might not say a word.
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