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Author Topic: bitfloor needs your help!  (Read 169943 times)
muyuu
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March 20, 2013, 02:10:35 PM
 #721

The company has a debt denominated in BTC.  The hedge would be to hold any profits in BTC.  Having a debt in BTC and holding assets in USD isn't a hedge, it is a short position.   Imagine if hypothetically Bitcoin rose to $500 USD per BTC.  Suddenly the company would owe $15M USD worth of debt.  I had hoped that bitfloor would seek outside investors make a deal to fix the debt to USD offer something like a 33% haircut, 33% repaid upfront, and 33% repaid over next x years.  As it is holding USD and watching the BTC denominated debt skyrocket is just a stone around the neck of bitfloor.

Words of wisdom.

I hope shtylman reacts soon, because we seem to be shooting up to $100 and the situation is quickly becoming untenable.

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March 20, 2013, 03:22:20 PM
 #722

I agree, a little more communication about the held coins would help put minds at ease. Even a simple web page with the payback strategy & payout history would help.

As far as I understand, the price of the coins is irrelevent as others have mentioned on previous posts. The important factor is volume.

It would take Bitfloor a volume of ~333.5 BTC to repurchase 1 BTC. Assuming Shtylman distributes 100% of the revenues, this gives a total traded volume of ~8.25 Million BTC to get back all 25K coins.

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March 20, 2013, 04:07:09 PM
 #723

I modified this to show the number of bitcoins that could have been bought had bitfloor been immediately buying coins at another exchange as fees were received (assuming price was the same at both exchanges).




updated script if someone wants to host it:
Code:

#Get Data from bitcoincharts
bitfloor<-read.table("http://bitcoincharts.com/t/trades.csv?symbol=bitfloorUSD&start=0",
                     sep=","
)

##Convert Times from Unix
times=matrix(nrow=nrow(bitfloor), ncol=6)
time.string=NULL
for(i in 1:nrow(bitfloor)){
  timeStamp<-ISOdatetime(1970,1,1,0,0,0) + bitfloor[i,1]
 
  date<-strsplit(as.character(timeStamp), " ")[[1]][1]
  yr<-as.numeric(strsplit(date, "-")[[1]][1])
  mo<-as.numeric(strsplit(date, "-")[[1]][2])
  day<-as.numeric(strsplit(date, "-")[[1]][3])
 
  ToD<-strsplit(as.character(timeStamp), " ")[[1]][2]
  hr<-as.numeric(strsplit(ToD, ":")[[1]][1])
  min<-as.numeric(strsplit(ToD, ":")[[1]][2])
  sec<-as.numeric(strsplit(ToD, ":")[[1]][2])
 
  times[i,]<-cbind(yr,mo,day,hr,min,sec)
  time.string<-rbind(time.string,as.character(timeStamp))
}

bitfloor<-cbind(times,bitfloor)
colnames(bitfloor)<-c("Yr","Mo","Day","Hr","Min","Sec","UnixT","Price","Vol")

##Set First Timestamp bitfloor was open after hack
post.hack.open.time<-as.numeric(head(
  bitfloor[which(bitfloor[,1]==2012 & bitfloor[,2]==9 & bitfloor[,3]==21),],
  1)[7])

##Divide into pre and post hack data
pre.hack.bitfloor<-bitfloor[which(bitfloor[,7]<post.hack.open.time),]
post.hack.bitfloor<-bitfloor[which(bitfloor[,7]>(post.hack.open.time-1)),]

#Generate cumulative volume and fees
pre.hack.bitfloor<-cbind(pre.hack.bitfloor,
                         cumsum(pre.hack.bitfloor[,8]*pre.hack.bitfloor[,9]),
                         cumsum(pre.hack.bitfloor[,8]*pre.hack.bitfloor[,9])*.005
)
colnames(pre.hack.bitfloor)[10:11]<-c("cumUSD.Vol","cumFee")

post.hack.bitfloor<-cbind(post.hack.bitfloor,
                          cumsum(post.hack.bitfloor[,8]*post.hack.bitfloor[,9]),
                          cumsum(post.hack.bitfloor[,8]*post.hack.bitfloor[,9])*.003
)
colnames(post.hack.bitfloor)[10:11]<-c("cumUSD.Vol","cumFee")
#

##Set Timestamp of first payout
payback.time.one<-as.numeric(head(
  bitfloor[which(bitfloor[,1]==2012 & bitfloor[,2]==12 & bitfloor[,3]==1),],
  1)[7])

##Split into pre and post payout
pre.payout.one<-post.hack.bitfloor[which(post.hack.bitfloor[,7]<payback.time.one),]
post.payout.one<-post.hack.bitfloor[which(post.hack.bitfloor[,7]>(payback.time.one-1)),]

#Generate cumulative volume and fee data
pre.payout.one[,10:11]<-cbind(
  cumsum(pre.payout.one[,8]*pre.payout.one[,9]),
  cumsum(pre.payout.one[,8]*pre.payout.one[,9])*.003
)

post.payout.one[,10:11]<-cbind(
  cumsum(post.payout.one[,8]*post.payout.one[,9]),
  cumsum(post.payout.one[,8]*post.payout.one[,9])*.003
)
#

##Get months from unix timestamps
month.labels=data.frame()
for(y in 2012:2013){
  for(m in 1:12){
    unixT<-bitfloor[which(bitfloor[,1]==y & bitfloor[,2]==m),7][1]
    month.labels<-rbind(month.labels,cbind(unixT,month.name[m]))
  }
}
month.labels<-month.labels[which(!is.na(month.labels[,1])),]
month.labels<-month.labels[2:nrow(month.labels),]

##Misc
est.payed.back<-.017
Total.Value.Stolen<-25000*tail(bitfloor[,8],1)
Total.Value.Payed<-est.payed.back*Total.Value.Stolen

##Make Plots
png("bitfloor.png", height=800, width=1300, pointsize=15)
layout(matrix(c(1,1,1,3,2,2,2,4), 2, 4, byrow = TRUE))
plot(bitfloor[,7],bitfloor[,8], type="n", xaxt="n",
     xlab="Time",
     ylab="USD/BTC",ylim=c(0,(max(bitfloor[,8])+5)),
     main="Bitfloor Price History"
)
axis(1,at=as.numeric(as.matrix(month.labels[,1])),
     labels=as.character(month.labels[,2]))
lines(pre.hack.bitfloor[,7],pre.hack.bitfloor[,8], col="Green")
lines(pre.payout.one[,7],pre.payout.one[,8], col="Red")
lines(post.payout.one[,7],post.payout.one[,8], col="Blue")
abline(v=payback.time.one)

plot(pre.hack.bitfloor[,7],pre.hack.bitfloor[,11], xaxt="n",
     xlab="Time",
     ylab="Cumulative Fees Generated (USD)",
     xlim=c(min(bitfloor[,7]),max(bitfloor[,7])),
     ylim=c(0,max(pre.hack.bitfloor[,11],pre.payout.one[,11],post.payout.one[,11])),
     type="l", lwd=3, col="Green",
     main=c("Bitfloor Cumulative Fee Revenue",
            "Before Hack Rate= 0.5%,   After Hack= 0.3%")
)
axis(1,at=as.numeric(as.matrix(month.labels[,1])),
     labels=as.character(month.labels[,2]))
lines(pre.payout.one[,7],pre.payout.one[,11],
      type="l", lwd=3, col="Red"
)
lines(post.payout.one[,7],post.payout.one[,11],
      type="l", lwd=3, col="Blue"
)
abline(v=payback.time.one)

barplot(c(
  Total.Value.Stolen,
  Total.Value.Payed
),
        ylab="USD", ylim=c(0,1.1*Total.Value.Stolen),
        names.arg=c(paste("Value Stolen=", Total.Value.Stolen),
                    paste("Value Payed=",Total.Value.Payed)),
        col=c("Red","Green"),
        main=paste("Estimated Payed Back=",100*est.payed.back,"%")
)

barplot(c(
  max(pre.payout.one[,11]),
  max(post.payout.one[,11])
),
        ylim=c(0,1.1*max(c(max(pre.payout.one[,11]),max(post.payout.one[,11])))),
        ylab="Fees Generated (USD)",
        names.arg=c(paste("Hack to First Payout=", round(max(pre.payout.one[,11]),1)),
                    paste("Since=",round(max(post.payout.one[,11]),1))),
        col=c("Red","Blue"),
        main=c("Fees Generated Since Hack",
               paste("Constant Buying:",round(sum(0.003*post.payout.one[,9]),1), "BTC"),
               paste("Buy Now:",round(max(post.payout.one[,11])/tail(post.payout.one[,8],1),1),"BTC")
        )
)
dev.off()




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March 22, 2013, 03:43:23 PM
 #724

The new FinCEN regs are going to put BitFloor out of business.  Adios, 12 BTC...

Oh?  What are the issues you see?


I'm concerned about this, too. If Bitfloor doesn't have the required licenses, and is forced to buy the new license AND show that they have $100,000 in liquidity, which may be impossible for them to do, they may be forced to shut down, and everyone who was owed any BTC will be screwed.

Is there anything official from Bitfloor out there to let us know what the situation is?

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March 22, 2013, 03:51:13 PM
 #725

The new FinCEN regs are going to put BitFloor out of business.  Adios, 12 BTC...

Oh?  What are the issues you see?


I'm concerned about this, too. If Bitfloor doesn't have the required licenses, and is forced to buy the new license AND show that they have $100,000 in liquidity, which may be impossible for them to do, they may be forced to shut down, and everyone who was owed any BTC will be screwed.

Is there anything official from Bitfloor out there to let us know what the situation is?

I read the Texas Banking Commission rules some years back when I thought I might want to start an exchange with SLL/USD, but nothing that might apply to Bitcoin in the present.  I think I was dismayed then when an internet bank needed $10,000,000.

But I assume that the liquidity could come from investors.  If you think he needs it, and you have a strong interest in keeping his business alive, you might be forming a consortium and seeing what funding that consortium has the will to use, so that you are ready to act if the opportunity presents itself.

I try to be respectful and informed.
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March 27, 2013, 01:12:25 PM
 #726

Did bitfloor just make a payment?  No announcement but my books wouldn't balance and I login to see an unexplained increased in BTC.
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March 27, 2013, 01:21:53 PM
 #727

What's a "bid for debt to gather enough?"

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March 27, 2013, 01:23:35 PM
 #728

What's a "bid for debt to gather enough?"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=159221.0
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March 27, 2013, 01:50:53 PM
 #729

Did bitfloor just make a payment?  No announcement but my books wouldn't balance and I login to see an unexplained increased in BTC.

I got a payment. It looks like about 1% of the outstanding BTC debt. Good News!
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March 27, 2013, 02:39:40 PM
 #730

Another 50 years with no interest and Roman will have paid us back!!!
Or, you could incur legal expenses and spread FUD and make sure he has no way to pay back. Great idea!

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March 27, 2013, 02:48:05 PM
 #731

Another 50 years with no interest and Roman will have paid us back!!!
Or, you could incur legal expenses and spread FUD and make sure he has no way to pay back. Great idea!


If you find it acceptable for operators of exchanges to seize your money then that is good for you.

I don't find it acceptable.  And Bitfloor is bankrupt.  There are enough bankrupt banks operating in the fiat world.  Bitcoin doesn't need any.

If you disagree:  Buy me out.
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March 27, 2013, 02:57:57 PM
 #732

Another 50 years with no interest and Roman will have paid us back!!!
Or, you could incur legal expenses and spread FUD and make sure he has no way to pay back. Great idea!


If you find it acceptable for operators of exchanges to seize your money then that is good for you.

I don't find it acceptable.  And Bitfloor is bankrupt.  There are enough bankrupt banks operating in the fiat world.  Bitcoin doesn't need any.

If you disagree:  Buy me out.

What can make you satisfied?

I try to be respectful and informed.
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March 27, 2013, 03:02:32 PM
 #733

Another 50 years with no interest and Roman will have paid us back!!!
Or, you could incur legal expenses and spread FUD and make sure he has no way to pay back. Great idea!


If you find it acceptable for operators of exchanges to seize your money then that is good for you.

I don't find it acceptable.  And Bitfloor is bankrupt.  There are enough bankrupt banks operating in the fiat world.  Bitcoin doesn't need any.

If you disagree:  Buy me out.
Buy me out as well..!
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March 27, 2013, 03:11:18 PM
 #734

Another 50 years with no interest and Roman will have paid us back!!!
Or, you could incur legal expenses and spread FUD and make sure he has no way to pay back. Great idea!


If you find it acceptable for operators of exchanges to seize your money then that is good for you.

I don't find it acceptable.  And Bitfloor is bankrupt.  There are enough bankrupt banks operating in the fiat world.  Bitcoin doesn't need any.

If you disagree:  Buy me out.

What can make you satisfied?


I don't know, honestly.  There is a serious principle at stake, and Bitcoin is getting to the point where stands need to be made on ethical grounds or the system will collapse, and the bubble pointers will shout I told you so.

I offered at 30 cents on the dollar right after the "theft".  This was at a time pirate debt was trading at 0.50.  There were no takers.  People preferred Pirate's debt to Roman's. 

Since Roman has never taken any input from us, or even responded to the many viable suggestions of how he could resolve the debt, I find the whole 'Bitfloor needs your help' plea to be repulsive.  Bitfloor seized my money.

And by the way; You are all welcome for the 1% payback I forced.
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March 27, 2013, 03:14:43 PM
 #735

If you find it acceptable for operators of exchanges to seize your money then that is good for you.

I don't find it acceptable.  And Bitfloor is bankrupt.  There are enough bankrupt banks operating in the fiat world.  Bitcoin doesn't need any.

If you disagree:  Buy me out.
Did he seize your money or is he bankrupt? Make up your mind.

Bitfloor is not a bank, and your solution is to waste a lot of time and money with the goal to make it harder for him to make people whole. Ask Bitcoinica holders how many payments they have gotten since the last hack.

If you disagree: you are not thinking clearly.


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March 27, 2013, 03:15:45 PM
 #736

And by the way; You are all welcome for the 1% payback I forced.
So in the end, you're just a delusional ass who wants attention. Got it.


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March 27, 2013, 03:17:45 PM
 #737

If you find it acceptable for operators of exchanges to seize your money then that is good for you.

I don't find it acceptable.  And Bitfloor is bankrupt.  There are enough bankrupt banks operating in the fiat world.  Bitcoin doesn't need any.

If you disagree:  Buy me out.
Did he seize your money or is he bankrupt? Make up your mind.

Bitfloor is not a bank, and your solution is to waste a lot of time and money with the goal to make it harder for him to make people whole. Ask Bitcoinica holders how many payments they have made back since the last hack.

If you disagree: you are not thinking clearly.



He is bankrupt.  He owes over $2M in BTC and does not have the funds.  In order to continue operating he has seized those funds from all depositors of BTC on his site.

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March 27, 2013, 03:19:32 PM
 #738

He is bankrupt.  He owes over $2M in BTC and does not have the funds.  In order to continue operating he has seized those funds from all depositors of BTC on his site.

Are you high?

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March 27, 2013, 03:20:03 PM
 #739

Bitfloor seized my money.

Bitfloor didn't "seize" your money, there was no money to seize. It was stolen, remember. All Bitfloor did is say, "I screwed up, and I owe you this much money. I don't have ANY money now, but I will keep what I still owe you on the books, and pay it back as best I can whenever I get any money."

I think the most a lawsuit can accomplish is to force Bitfloor to acknowledge that they owe you money, put the debt they owe you on their books, and pay it back as best as they can whenever they get any money. Which is what they are doing already, anyway. At worst, you can just shut the business down completely, in which case, please buy all of the rest of US who are depending on him to repay us, FIRST.

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March 27, 2013, 03:21:24 PM
 #740

Bitfloor seized my money.

Bitfloor didn't "seize" your money, there was no money to seize. It was stolen, remember. All Bitfloor did is say, "I screwed up, and I owe you this much money. I don't have ANY money now, but I will keep what I still owe you on the books, and pay it back as best I can whenever I get any money."

I think the most a lawsuit can accomplish is to force Bitfloor to acknowledge that they owe you money, put the debt they owe you on their books, and pay it back as best as they can whenever they get any money. Which is what they are doing already, anyway. At worst, you can just shut the business down completely, in which case, please buy all of the rest of US who are depending on him to repay us, FIRST.

Citation needed for that theft.

Where is the police report?
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