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Author Topic: bitfloor needs your help!  (Read 92111 times)
barbarousrelic
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September 05, 2012, 05:21:25 PM
 #341

Sorry, but that's flawed reasoning. You are saying you trust people more because they have proved they are not trustworthy. By that reasoning you should trust bitcoinica with everything you have.
+1, unfortunately. My life experience suggests that people actually don't learn lessons and instead repeat prior behavior if they can get away with it. (This is not a personal judgment about any particular person.)
The operators of Bitfloor should have learned their lesson from the hacks of all the other Bitcoin exchanges. That they did not points to either gross negligence or criminal intent, neither of which should instill confidence in anyone.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
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blakdawg
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September 05, 2012, 05:25:35 PM
 #342

No, I am saying I trust people more who have "learned their lesson" already vs people who haven't.  I trust someone who has been through the hell of losing $200k of customer funds more than someone who hasn't, because they're going to do everything in their power to make sure it doesn't happen again.  They will have better security practices, procedures, and knowledge the second time around.

There are two different qualities at issue here - the first is a person's diligence/competence, the second is their honesty.

A painful mistake is likely to help a person learn to be more diligent/careful in the future, because they do not want to experience the consequences again.

A painful mistake won't make a dishonest person into an honest person.

I don't know the man personally but my impression is that Roman is an honest person who was insufficiently diligent/competent in the operation of his business. His behavior post-event seems to be that of a person owning up to and trying to fix the error in the best way possible.
LazyOtto
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September 05, 2012, 05:32:27 PM
 #343

Well, my impression is just that the operator of Bitfloor is young and inexperienced. With age and wide experience, not just ten or twenty years of the same thing over and over, Murphy's Laws become entrenched. Just automatic habit.

And paranoia becomes a professional asset. Smiley

--

I do praise him for immediately coming forward / fessing up.
Most people's first inclination is usually to hide or attempt a cover-up.
SgtSpike
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September 05, 2012, 05:37:37 PM
 #344

Sorry, but that's flawed reasoning. You are saying you trust people more because they have proved they are not trustworthy. By that reasoning you should trust bitcoinica with everything you have.
+1, unfortunately. My life experience suggests that people actually don't learn lessons and instead repeat prior behavior if they can get away with it. (This is not a personal judgment about any particular person.)
The operators of Bitfloor should have learned their lesson from the hacks of all the other Bitcoin exchanges. That they did not points to either gross negligence or criminal intent, neither of which should instill confidence in anyone.
Tis a valid point, but not everyone learns well secondhand.  Many people learn best by failure.  I don't think failure implies purposeful negligence in all cases.

No, I am saying I trust people more who have "learned their lesson" already vs people who haven't.  I trust someone who has been through the hell of losing $200k of customer funds more than someone who hasn't, because they're going to do everything in their power to make sure it doesn't happen again.  They will have better security practices, procedures, and knowledge the second time around.

There are two different qualities at issue here - the first is a person's diligence/competence, the second is their honesty.

A painful mistake is likely to help a person learn to be more diligent/careful in the future, because they do not want to experience the consequences again.

A painful mistake won't make a dishonest person into an honest person.

I don't know the man personally but my impression is that Roman is an honest person who was insufficiently diligent/competent in the operation of his business. His behavior post-event seems to be that of a person owning up to and trying to fix the error in the best way possible.
Absolutely agree.  I believe Roman to be honest, and I wasn't trying to say that I would trust a dishonest person more after they stole people's money.  I trust an honest person more if they make a mistake, own up to it, and learn from it.

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September 05, 2012, 05:42:45 PM
 #345

And one more thought, the professional software industry knows very well how to avoid these types of failures.

There just isn't enough money / ROI involved here to make it worth applying full-scale software engineering practices.

--

And that goes well beyond just 'slinging code'. It gets into Project Management, Administration Practices, Policies and Procedures, etc.
jwzguy
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September 05, 2012, 05:43:04 PM
 #346

Sorry, but that's flawed reasoning. You are saying you trust people more because they have proved they are not trustworthy. By that reasoning you should trust bitcoinica with everything you have.
+1, unfortunately. My life experience suggests that people actually don't learn lessons and instead repeat prior behavior if they can get away with it. (This is not a personal judgment about any particular person.)
The operators of Bitfloor should have learned their lesson from the hacks of all the other Bitcoin exchanges. That they did not points to either gross negligence or criminal intent, neither of which should instill confidence in anyone.
Bullshit. That's like saying that because a car wreck has happened before, every future car wreck points to "gross negligence or criminal intent."  

How Roman resolves the current situation can certainly lead to further confidence in him.

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barbarousrelic
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September 05, 2012, 05:52:10 PM
 #347

Sorry, but that's flawed reasoning. You are saying you trust people more because they have proved they are not trustworthy. By that reasoning you should trust bitcoinica with everything you have.
+1, unfortunately. My life experience suggests that people actually don't learn lessons and instead repeat prior behavior if they can get away with it. (This is not a personal judgment about any particular person.)
The operators of Bitfloor should have learned their lesson from the hacks of all the other Bitcoin exchanges. That they did not points to either gross negligence or criminal intent, neither of which should instill confidence in anyone.
Bullshit. That's like saying that because a car wreck has happened before, every future car wreck points to "gross negligence or criminal intent."  

How Roman resolves the current situation can certainly lead to further confidence in him.
Holding unencrypted wallet files on online computers in a business where you know you are likely to be a target is either gross negligence or it's a fake story to cover criminal intent.

To extend your car analogy, if you had seen many of your friends die in car crashes from not wearing a seatbelt, and you drive without a seatbelt and allow your children to ride with you without a seatbelt, you are grossly negligent.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
jwzguy
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September 05, 2012, 05:55:27 PM
 #348

Sorry, but that's flawed reasoning. You are saying you trust people more because they have proved they are not trustworthy. By that reasoning you should trust bitcoinica with everything you have.
+1, unfortunately. My life experience suggests that people actually don't learn lessons and instead repeat prior behavior if they can get away with it. (This is not a personal judgment about any particular person.)
The operators of Bitfloor should have learned their lesson from the hacks of all the other Bitcoin exchanges. That they did not points to either gross negligence or criminal intent, neither of which should instill confidence in anyone.
Bullshit. That's like saying that because a car wreck has happened before, every future car wreck points to "gross negligence or criminal intent."  

How Roman resolves the current situation can certainly lead to further confidence in him.
Holding unencrypted wallet files on online computers in a business where you know you are likely to be a target is either gross negligence or it's a fake story to cover criminal intent.

To extend your car analogy, if you had seen many of your friends die in car crashes from not wearing a seatbelt, and you drive without a seatbelt and allow your children to ride with you without a seatbelt, you are grossly negligent.

You are working on very limited information and yet you're speaking in absolutes. Sounds like you're just here to bash him, or you love speaking in unsupported hyperbole.

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Rassah
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September 05, 2012, 06:00:31 PM
 #349

You are working on very limited information and yet you're speaking in absolutes. Sounds like you're just here to bash him, or you love speaking in unsupported hyperbole.

Let them bash him. Frustrated people who lost money need an outlet for their anger, and Roman admittedly deserves the scolding  Tongue

barbarousrelic
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September 05, 2012, 06:00:52 PM
 #350

Sorry, but that's flawed reasoning. You are saying you trust people more because they have proved they are not trustworthy. By that reasoning you should trust bitcoinica with everything you have.
+1, unfortunately. My life experience suggests that people actually don't learn lessons and instead repeat prior behavior if they can get away with it. (This is not a personal judgment about any particular person.)
The operators of Bitfloor should have learned their lesson from the hacks of all the other Bitcoin exchanges. That they did not points to either gross negligence or criminal intent, neither of which should instill confidence in anyone.
Bullshit. That's like saying that because a car wreck has happened before, every future car wreck points to "gross negligence or criminal intent."  

How Roman resolves the current situation can certainly lead to further confidence in him.
Holding unencrypted wallet files on online computers in a business where you know you are likely to be a target is either gross negligence or it's a fake story to cover criminal intent.

To extend your car analogy, if you had seen many of your friends die in car crashes from not wearing a seatbelt, and you drive without a seatbelt and allow your children to ride with you without a seatbelt, you are grossly negligent.

You are working on very limited information and yet you're speaking in absolutes. Sounds like you're just here to bash him, or you love speaking in unsupported hyperbole.

He admitted he had an unencrypted wallet file on an online computer.

There's no excuse for someone with fifty bitcoins to have that, let alone someone with twenty-five thousand, on a (relatively) high-profile website.

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
jwzguy
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September 05, 2012, 06:17:07 PM
 #351

He admitted he had an unencrypted wallet file on an online computer.

There's no excuse for someone with fifty bitcoins to have that, let alone someone with twenty-five thousand, on a (relatively) high-profile website.
He didn't have them "on a high-profile website." Thanks for proving my point.

Did he make a mistake? Sure. Hindsight is 20/20. Does this mistake equal "gross negligence?" It's possible, but you don't know.

Feel free to keep running your mouth, I'm sure it will help.

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bitcorn
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September 05, 2012, 06:27:49 PM
 #352

It was glossed over earlier, but it would appear that bitfloor had no TOS as part of their operating practices. At least seemingly not accessible from their website. TOS would usually be incorporated into a greater contract for use, etc. I am curious if users had some form of contract or use agreement with bitfloor before using the service.

If not, how could this affect bitfloor and their customers moving forward?

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ObviousSock
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September 05, 2012, 06:31:34 PM
 #353

The operators of Bitfloor should have learned their lesson from the hacks of all the other Bitcoin exchanges. That they did not points to either gross negligence or criminal intent, neither of which should instill confidence in anyone.
I don't think you understand the meaning of gross negligence.  I do not think that is the case here.

Holding unencrypted wallet files on online computers in a business where you know you are likely to be a target is either gross negligence or it's a fake story to cover criminal intent.
Except that this machine was semi airgapped, so roman had no reason to believe it would be broken into. 
Domrada
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September 05, 2012, 06:54:56 PM
 #354

Bitfloor, Inc. is a registered corporation, with the complete protection of limited liability. Roman could walk away from this. But I predict he will come through and make his account holders whole, anyway. Think I'm bonkers?

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=635

-edit-

Update: Unfortunately they did not approve my statement. They said it was too vague, and I refused to let them change it. This is what I proposed:

"On or before Nov 1, 2012, Roman Shtylman will announce via bitcointalk.org or bitfloor.com that all of Bitfloor's accountholders have either been made whole (account balances as of the Sep 3 loss event fully funded and available), or voluntarily agreed to suitably satisfactory repayment arrangements."

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September 05, 2012, 07:14:08 PM
 #355

Bet has not yet been approved.
repentance
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September 05, 2012, 07:25:53 PM
 #356

Is this going to be yet another theft which doesn't get reported to the police?

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
whitslack
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September 05, 2012, 07:40:55 PM
 #357

Is this going to be yet another theft which doesn't get reported to the police?
"SAVE US, PO-PO!" Give me a break. The police aren't going to be able to do jack shit; Bitcoin was designed with anonymity and irreversibility as core features. And the police aren't going to care either, as Bitcoin is still seen as a fringe element. It's like how murders of homeless people and prostitutes largely go unprosecuted.

ADDENDUM: You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want your money to be free from the State, then you can't go running to the State when things don't go your way.
jojo69
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September 05, 2012, 07:43:47 PM
 #358

Is this going to be yet another theft which doesn't get reported to the police?

yeah go run to the daddy/god/state

"oooh look, the bitcoin kiddies need their diapers changed again"

This is not some pseudoeconomic post-modern Libertarian cult, it's an un-led, crowd-sourced mega startup organized around mutual self-interest where problems, whether of the theoretical or purely practical variety, are treated as temporary and, ultimately, solvable.
Censorship of e-gold was easy. Censorship of Bitcoin will be… entertaining.
LazyOtto
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September 05, 2012, 08:10:56 PM
 #359

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want your money to be free from the State, then you can't go running to the State when things don't go your way.
+1
ErebusBat
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September 05, 2012, 10:30:58 PM
 #360

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want your money to be free from the State, then you can't go running to the State when things don't go your way.
Quoting just because I think it is important.

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