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Author Topic: bitfloor needs your help!  (Read 92858 times)
iCEBREAKER
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September 07, 2012, 12:37:54 AM
 #441

If your sole qualification for making statements about US law is the fact that you have an opinion about US law, you might want to STFU before you make a fool of yourself to a greater extent.

iCEBREAKER: Expressed an opinion about US law that was soon proven to be correct.

blakdawg: Expressed an opinion about US law that was soon proven to be incorrect.

So dawg, who needed to STFU?  Oh yes, it was you!

So dawg, who made a fool of themselves to a great extent?  Again, it was you!

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
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iCEBREAKER
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September 07, 2012, 12:48:10 AM
 #442

My bet is that everyone with funds at Bitfloor will end up with a pro rata share of the total "deposits", with BTC valued at today or yesterday's average USD exchange rate. And court fees, attorney fees, accountant fees, trustee's fees, and all of the rest come out first.

So a pretty good outcome would probably look like 25% of your total deposits (assuming, overall, that half of the value deposited was BTC (which is now gone) and half was USD, and half of what's left gets spent on the friction of litigation), and you'll probably get it in 12-18 months.

Well you lost that bet.  Big Time.  You were wrong about both the terms and the timing.

And it didn't take long for you to lose it either!   Grin

At this rate you'll soon be a senior partner in the disreputable internet law firm of

Fail, Failure, and Failmore.
Providing worthless opinions regarding matters far beyond our comprehension since 2010.

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
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September 07, 2012, 12:52:52 AM
 #443

If your sole qualification for making statements about US law is the fact that you have an opinion about US law, you might want to STFU before you make a fool of yourself to a greater extent.

iCEBREAKER: Expressed an opinion about US law that was soon proven to be correct.

blakdawg: Expressed an opinion about US law that was soon proven to be incorrect.

So dawg, who needed to STFU?  Oh yes, it was you!

So dawg, who made a fool of themselves to a great extent?  Again, it was you!

Nothing has been proven. I suspect that Roman's actions indicate that he will absorb the BTC losses himself, or investors/lenders will provide him with funds to do so. I suspect (but do not know) that Roman has talked to one or more attorneys, hopefully he'll be smart enough to keep his mouth shut about what they told him so that he won't waive the attorney/client privilege.

Whether or not the Fifth Amendment controls the behavior of private individuals was never in question - it does not, and never has. Any claim to the contrary reveals the maker as a buffoon. This is not an interesting question, or a close question, or even a question. It's basic constitutional law. Disputing it is like insisting that "2 + 2 = 5" or that the sun orbits the earth. You can shout and call names all you like - the harder you fight, the dumber you look.

But, I'll say this for you - you are amusing, though you might want to give that "communist" thing a rest.

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September 07, 2012, 12:54:43 AM
 #444

My bet is that everyone with funds at Bitfloor will end up with a pro rata share of the total "deposits", with BTC valued at today or yesterday's average USD exchange rate. And court fees, attorney fees, accountant fees, trustee's fees, and all of the rest come out first.

So a pretty good outcome would probably look like 25% of your total deposits (assuming, overall, that half of the value deposited was BTC (which is now gone) and half was USD, and half of what's left gets spent on the friction of litigation), and you'll probably get it in 12-18 months.

Well you lost that bet.  Big Time.  You were wrong about both the terms and the timing.

If I was wrong about that, I think it's great news. I don't like to see people lose money to criminal behavior.

On the other hand, we're not done. This story wasn't over yesterday and it's not over today and it's not going to be over tomorrow. So it's a little early to be calling wins and losses.

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September 07, 2012, 01:05:40 AM
 #445

Quote
Those are my USD, not yours . . .

This is not at all clear under US law, which would presumably apply given Bitfloor's ties to the US.

Au contraire, US law is perfectly clear on the matter:

Quote
No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Actually, that clause is exactly the problem.  Until due process of law, it is not legally clear whether any of the USD controlled by bitfloor is the property of those who had BTC on deposit, the property of bitfloor, or solely the property of those who have USD on deposit with bitfloor.  Bitfloor therefore cannot legally give USD to anyone until due process determines exactly whose property each and every $0.01 is.

Here's your "due process" champ: Roman talked to a lawyer, who told him exactly what Death&Taxes, myself, and others have been saying all along.   Cheesy

Here's your "legal clarity" ace: The burden is on those who 'lost' BTC to sue those of us who are looking forward to a nice, juicy ACH transfer into our happy bank accounts.

Good luck with that flimsy pretext, which will be thrown out of court like last week's garbage as completely frivolous and totally without merit.

Recognition of property rights is enshrined in the US Constitution.  Specifically, the 5th Amendment.  If you can't understand that, STFU when the adults are talking.   Cool

Sounds like we need get you onto Jon Corzine on behalf of the MF Global customers who are still waiting for their deposits back ....

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September 07, 2012, 01:06:16 AM
 #446

How many triple post are you going to make.  In fact I've actually never seen a quintuple post.
iCEBREAKER
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September 07, 2012, 01:10:16 AM
 #447

Let it go iCEBREAKER.

Common sense, common law, and common decency say that the presumption of ownership remains with the original USD depositors.

That is why I have no patience with anyone willing to entertain/support the amoral, collectivist Marxist lawyer POV of negotiable property rights.

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
iCEBREAKER
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September 07, 2012, 01:39:45 AM
 #448

If your sole qualification for making statements about US law is the fact that you have an opinion about US law, you might want to STFU before you make a fool of yourself to a greater extent.

iCEBREAKER: Expressed an opinion about US law that was soon proven to be correct.

blakdawg: Expressed an opinion about US law that was soon proven to be incorrect.

Nothing has been proven. I suspect that Roman's actions indicate that he will absorb the BTC losses himself, or investors/lenders will provide him with funds to do so. I suspect (but do not know) that Roman has talked to one or more attorneys, hopefully he'll be smart enough to keep his mouth shut about what they told him so that he won't waive the attorney/client privilege.

I didn't think you would lose the argument gracefully, Mr. "Nothing has been proven despite imminent ACH transfers."  Thanks for living down to my low expectations.   Roll Eyes


I have waited to post updates until I had a clearer understanding of how to move forward.

After careful consideration, ACH withdrawals of USD from Bitfloor will soon be re-enabled, with details to be posted on bitfloor.com.
cheers,
~Roman

It's perfectly obvious that Roman has been given legal advice and he is now proceeding to operate under its direction.   Grin

All of your random yammering about waiving attorney/client privilege is as irrelevant as your previous threadjacking blather regarding incorporation of the US Bill of Rights. 


For those of you in Rio Linda (cough *blakdawg* cough), when Roman says

Quote
until I had a clearer understanding of how to move forward.
  he means 'until I had a chance to talk to 3 or 4 lawyers.'

And for those of you weak of mind and slow in wit (cough *blakdawg again* cough), when Roman says
Quote
After careful consideration
he means 'I have now talked with 3 or 4 lawyers.'

Finally, for the slow learners in the class (cough *who else but blakdawg* cough), when Roman says
Quote
ACH withdrawals of USD from Bitfloor will soon be re-enabled
he means 'the lawyers have confirmed that iCEBREAKER was correct as usual, and if I hold USD without their owners' consent I will be in a big stinky heap of trouble with the law, blakdawg's farcical communist opinions notwithstanding.'


"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
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September 07, 2012, 01:55:58 AM
 #449

Sounds like we need get you onto Jon Corzine on behalf of the MF Global customers who are still waiting for their deposits back ....

Heh.  Don't get me started!   Angry

Give me Corzine, a soundproof basement, and a box of pliers.  Plus some thick rubber gloves.  I'll find the MFGlobal money he stole PDQ.

Actually, let Gerald Celente handle Corzine.  He's old school NY Italian and could teach me some 'classic methods of persuasion.'   Shocked

There are already enough wanna-be Corzine rat finks running around here to keep me and my (verbal) dissection kit plenty busy.

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
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September 07, 2012, 02:01:21 AM
 #450

I didn't think you would lose the argument gracefully, Mr. "Nothing has been proven despite imminent ACH transfers."  Thanks for living down to my low expectations.   Roll Eyes

Look, maybe you just fell off the turnip truck, but if I got excited every time someone told me something was happening "soon" or that it was "imminent", well, I'd probably be babbling incoherently on the Internet about Marxists or something.

Like I said, I think it's great news if my prediction turns out to be wrong. But I'll believe that when dollars hit bank accounts and BTC's hit wallets (or don't).

miscreanity
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September 07, 2012, 03:11:04 AM
 #451

Relevant comment from a newbie thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=106234.0

Agreed - the only way out is through.

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iCEBREAKER
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September 07, 2012, 03:51:43 AM
 #452

I didn't think you would lose the argument gracefully, Mr. "Nothing has been proven despite imminent ACH transfers."  Thanks for living down to my low expectations.   Roll Eyes

Look, maybe you just fell off the turnip truck, but if I got excited every time someone told me something was happening "soon" or that it was "imminent", well, I'd probably be babbling incoherently on the Internet about Marxists or something.

Like I said, I think it's great news if my prediction turns out to be wrong. But I'll believe that when dollars hit bank accounts and BTC's hit wallets (or don't).

*climbs back on turnip truck*

You're right, "imminent" was the wrong word to use.  

Because I, among others, just logged on to BitFloor and initiated an ACH transfer despite your endless whiny impotent protests.   Grin

Why don't you put your money where your overused mouth is, and file an injunction against Bitfloor to stop these shameful, illegal actions?

Better still, why don't you sue me and try to claw back some USD that were never yours and always mine?  

My guess is you know you have zero, zip, zilch, nada chance of success but just can't bring yourself to admit that you were 100% wrong.

Your embrace of Corzine-style bankster logic is communist because it disregards property rights and falsely conflates equality of outcomes with fairness.  Now do you hear what I'm saying bro; now do you know what I mean, dawg?

Your embrace of overcomplicating, complexifying, and lawyering what should be a simple matter is a trademark of cultural Marxism.  Is that clear enough or do you require further elaboration (perhaps even citation) to facilitate comprehension?

Could you possibly fail any harder, Mr. "Nothing has been proven despite current and ongoing ACH transfers."?  

I don't think so.  If you found a way to be any more wrong, that in itself would be some kind of accomplishment.   Cool


"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
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September 07, 2012, 04:11:31 AM
 #453

Why don't you put your money where your overused mouth is, and file an injunction against Bitfloor to stop these shameful, illegal actions?

Better still, why don't you sue me and try to claw back some USD that were never yours and always mine? 

My guess is you know you have zero, zip, zilch, nada chance of success but just can't bring yourself to admit that you were 100% wrong.

I'm not going to sue anyone because I didn't lose anything. I realize this idea may simple be too complicated for you to grasp - but it is possible to think and reason about things that aren't actually happening directly to me.

Talking to you is like playing hide-and-go-seek with a very young child who thinks that because they he can't see anyone else, nobody can see him, either.

Here's the deal: it doesn't actually work that way. Not with hide-and-seek, and not with facts or law.

Your "reasoning" (which has the same relationship to actual thinking as mud pies do to apple pies) seems to spring from one source: your own self-interest. You want the USD back that you had deposited at Bitfloor so you could exchange it for some worthless experimental imaginary internet nerd tokens. Accordingly, any possible facts or ideas which might get in the way of YOU getting what YOU wanted, RIGHT NOW, are to be rejected as communist tricks; and any formulation of words, no matter how ridiculous, which apparently supports you getting what you want is celebrated as "common sense" or "common decency".

(And I'm sure your ideas about "common sense" and "common law" would have dictated an opposite result, in the event that you had BTC on deposit instead of USD.)

What happens or doesn't happen to Bitfloor has zero impact on my finances because I do not leave significant funds (in whatever currency) on "deposit" with online exchanges.

I had approximately 11 cents at Bitfloor at the time of the hack, left over from an exchange transaction - I don't remember if it was BTC or USD, and don't really care either way.

So when I write something about Bitfloor, it's not because I'm panicked that I exchanged my last funds on this earth for "experimental imaginary internet nerd tokens" that were stolen - or because I'm elated because it turns out that I can get my USD back since my money hadn't been exchanged yet.

I realize that you're excited that you were able to access a web page that led you to believe you'll get an ACH/wire transfer in a few days. That's good news for you. I can see you feel like a winner. And I can see that you think that since you're a winner, everyone who you don't like is a loser.

So go ahead. Run with that. Celebrate. You win!
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September 07, 2012, 04:43:40 AM
 #454

. . .What total idiocy. . .
. . .Why would any judge. . .
. . .Wrong! . . .
. . .Au contraire. . .
. . .Nope, they (and you) were 100% flat-out wrong. . .
. . .Au contraire. . .
. . .iCEBREAKER: Expressed an opinion. . .
. . .Well you lost that bet. . .
. . .Common sense, common law, and common decency say. . .
. . .I didn't think you would lose the argument gracefully. . .
. . .Heh.  Don't get me started! . . .
. . .*climbs back on turnip truck*. . .
Wow. 12 posts in a row all to say "Neener, neener, neener. I'm great and you are all dumb!"
You might want to cut back on the caffeine.

BitFloor did the right thing.  They contacted legal help and made sure that everything was handled properly rather than taking the advice of you, me, or any other random person trying to give advice on an internet discussion forum.  They shut down ALL withdrawals, and stopped all public communication for a few days (probably on advice from those lawyers) giving the lawyers time to figure out the best legal course of action.  It is not yet clear exactly what the final determinations were, but they have decided that ACH withdrawals of USD are now acceptable.  That's great and I'm glad to hear it, but there may be a lot of circumstances behind that decision, and it might not be as simple as you've implied.

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September 07, 2012, 04:52:53 AM
 #455

I'm not going to sue anyone because I didn't lose anything.

[irrelevant, long winded, tedious ad hominem removed for brevity]
[irrelevant, long winded, tedious cool bro story removed for brevity]


I realize that you're excited that you were able to access a web page that led you to believe you'll get an ACH/wire transfer in a few days. That's good news for you. I can see you feel like a winner. And I can see that you think that since you're a winner, everyone who you don't like is a loser.

So go ahead. Run with that. Celebrate. You win!

That's nice you didn't lose anything, hooray! 

But you are still wrong about those who did lose BTC having the standing to enjoin/sue USD anyone.  They don't have standing, won't file for an injunction, and can't sue for clawbacks.  Period.  Case dismissed!

The "web page" I accessed that led me "to believe" I'll get an ACH/wire transfer in a few days is BitFloor.com, not some random geocities page.

How reprehensibly immature of you to purposefully conflate a well-known, reputable exchange with just any old probable scam site!   Angry

Should we can be taking this to Scam Accusations?   Huh

If you truly and honestly believe Roman and his BitFloor exchange are not going to pay out the requested ACH transfers as promised, please present your evidence for that conclusion. 

Oh wait, you don't have any.   Cheesy

Silly widdle dawggy, you really should learn to stop pooping on the carpet.  Wait to go outside, or at least use the newspaper.  Until then, I'll just have to keep swatting you with the newspaper and rubbing your nose in it.   Undecided

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
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September 07, 2012, 05:12:33 AM
 #456

. . .Heh.  Don't get me started! . . .
Wow. 12 posts in a row all to say "Neener, neener, neener. I'm great and you are all dumb!"
You might want to cut back on the caffeine.

Wrong again.  That "Don't get me started" quote is about Corzine's actions re:MFGlobal and has nothing to do with the fact that I am great and all who disagreed with me acted stupidly.

You might want to have some more coffee.   Smiley

Wow.  12 quotes in a row just to say "Boo hoo hoo, I don't like being held accountable for being foolish enough to debate iCEBREAKER on topics he is more knowledgeable about than myself."

You might want to cut back on the meth.   Wink

BitFloor did the right thing. 

I agree.  Finally, you got something right!  Good for you.

They shut down ALL withdrawals, and stopped all public communication for a few days (probably on advice from those lawyers) giving the lawyers time to figure out the best legal course of action.  It is not yet clear exactly what the final determinations were, but they have decided that ACH withdrawals of USD are now acceptable.

Oops, now you're back to being wrong.  Scheduled ACH withdrawals did go out, even while the site was down for a much-needed security audit.  Any ACH withdrawals were "acceptable" (IE perfectly legal) the entire time, even before the lawyers retroactively approved them.

The "final determination" is exactly clear (despite the best obfuscatory efforts of Fail Team FUD) and it is that I'm going to get my USD back in 2-3 days.


"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
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September 07, 2012, 06:28:33 AM
 #457

sorry icebreaker

you just earned yourself one week on ignore

nothing personal, read you again when you have cooled down

peace

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September 07, 2012, 06:33:16 AM
 #458

Yeah. I didn't use the ignore button, but i don't even bother reading the rants anymore. Your opponent has gotten the better of you.

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September 07, 2012, 02:38:53 PM
 #459

Yeah I had to use ignore also, I was part of the group stating Roman had no claim over USD deposits and should return them.  Icebreaker's rants were just pages and pages of wasted space and helped to TOTALLY derail this thread.

Quote
it might not be as simple as you've implied.

Exactly.  The law is never absolute. If all lawyers agreed 100% on everything well you wouldn't need courts.  Your lawyer and my lawyer would simply reach a consensus, have a handshake, and resolve the situation.  

Generally when you have an insolvent debtor all unsecured creditors are treated equally.  The exception would be if deposits were put in "protected and segregated accounts" and that usually requires a trust and third party administrator (casino deposits are an example).  While all unsecured creditors recognized under the law are generally considered equal and paid on a fractional basis in Bankrutpcy, Bitcoin doesn't yet have any standing under the law.  It is questionable if a judge would take that leap and give the BTC creditors equal standing.  That would be a huge decision for a judge to make but it certainly ins't impossible.  Right now many aspects of Bitcoin are simply is undecided law.  

As I pointed out while the standing of BTC depositors may be undecided the standing of USD depositors is certainly not undecided.  In a case of undecided law it simply comes down to risk manangement.  There is no "risk free option".  It is unlikely any retained lawyer would provide absolutes on undecided law.   Still if your lawyer told you the risk of holding the deposits is significantly greater than the risk of allowing them to be returned what would you do?

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September 07, 2012, 03:38:24 PM
 #460

I am soliciting offers for the purchase of my 103 BTC balance at Bitfloor.
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