Bitcoin Forum
April 23, 2014, 02:22:32 PM *
News: Due to the OpenSSL heartbleed bug, changing your forum password is recommended.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 [22] 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42
  Print  
Author Topic: bitfloor needs your help!  (Read 92873 times)
Vod
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 994


Licking my boob since 1970


View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 07:07:56 PM
 #421

Why would someone pull an inside job like you are claiming if their real identity is publicly known? They could face harassment, physical threats, and legal issues. Especially with Bitcoin being used by such shady people.

They could yes.  But judging from history, the bitcoin community is more likely to roll over and take it.

BTC: 12sTkefnDQTYQL9M1PmhsVSDMhQFYSGUgJ    LTC: LetWRnxuuEn6PVpnXxHZC6L8kzQXmWv67t
I don't need your coins - I will never ask for a loan.
Buy a Blade, Get a 5-Chip Free!
Start Mining with GAWMiners.com
24/7 Live Phone & Tech Support
Free Hosting & Electricity for 1 Year!

Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1398262952
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1398262952

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1398262952
Reply with quote  #2

1398262952
Report to moderator
1398262952
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1398262952

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1398262952
Reply with quote  #2

1398262952
Report to moderator
1398262952
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1398262952

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1398262952
Reply with quote  #2

1398262952
Report to moderator
1398262952
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1398262952

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1398262952
Reply with quote  #2

1398262952
Report to moderator
qxzn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 07:19:00 PM
 #422

I've personally met Roman a number of times, and even worked with him on a project (thewalletlist.com). I have significant funds with bitfloor (mostly USD, 5 figures), and I'm not at all concerned that he's going to run off with any of it. Dunno if that helps reassure at all. I totally understand the suspicion -- it's easy to get frightened and let your imagination run wild when your money hangs in the balance.

Also knowing Roman, $250k is probably not all that much money to him. It seems totally counter to his interests for him to destroy his reputation in the bitcoin world for what amounts to a mediocre sum. On the other hand, he has a lot to gain by resolving this situation responsibly (and ideally, without bankruptcy) and earning a good chunk of reputation and trust. I'm convinced he will do so, enough so that I'd gladly take the "Roman is not a thief" side of a betting contract Smiley.

As far as the future...

It would be sad to see Bitfloor fold! It has a lot of good aspects, most notably it has far and away the best exchange technology platform. I'm talking about the matching engine design and algorithms and apis, not the security obviously. I say this having done automated trading with mtgox, campbx, virwox, and tradehill -- in my view bitfloor is a large step ahead of all of these.

On the other hand, an exchange is more than just a fast matching engine. It needs a whole supporting team; legal, banking, accounting, security, marketing etc. This may be the wakeup call Roman needs to see that Bitfloor may benefit from some help. I've long thought that a partnership where Roman handles the exchange technology, and others deal with other components, could produce something really robust and good. Whether that means hiring other people, selling out to another exchange, or just leasing technology/support to an exchange; I'm not sure.

For getting out of the immediate slump -- my favorite idea so far is for Roman to raise funds by selling preferred shares -- equity & debt -- to bring on small handful of investors (including yours truly Smiley. He should maintain more than 50% equity for sure, so the shares can be mostly debt with a smallish equity component. The debt should be countersigned by Roman personally and probably repay aggressively i.e. 100% of revenues until it's been fully repaid. With an arrangement like this I expect he can attract enough investors to make this just a bump in the road for Bitfloor.
qxzn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 07:22:29 PM
 #423

Why can't someone invent a machine that can be switched on or off to connect to the internet and it's only purpose is to be a bitcoin wallet. It can have a little screen that says how many BTC you have. Just connect and it updates and disconnect. And the main thing would be if you needed to send BTC, it would require you to insert some type of key or swipe a card or something.

There's definitely profit to be made by coming up with a way to keep coins that is both secure and easy to use (but not necessarily cheap or free!).
HDSolar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 381



View Profile WWW

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 07:36:11 PM
 #424

anyone notice the title of the thread? I don't see many responses to the plea for help...That said, just because we want Bitcoin to be decentralized and all that jazz, it doesn't mean we shouldn't get law enforcement involved when thefts occur.  It's computer hacking or fraud at the very least.

Excellent point. Bitfloor  has been very good to it's customers. Lowest fees, very easy to use, excellent (and personalized) customer service. No shady "account locking." No information extortion.

How can we help?
1) If you have funds there, be patient. We gave gox forever and a day, and they were making WAY more than Bitfloor. (quadruple the fees on a 10x-100x the volume)
2) Offer to invest in Bitfloor.

Roman, if you're reading this: This thread is clearly not the place to discuss it, but if you're willing to accept investment, that seems like the best way your user base can help you recover ASAP.

I'm not a big enough player to make much of a dent, but I would be willing to invest. It seems like you should start some kind of discussion on going forward with this, if you're considering it.

I also think you should let your accountholders with USD withdraw immediately before any other steps are taken.

Best wishes.

+1 and it is nice to read a positive post on here when this stuff happens.  It is what it is and in the end I hope something like this happens that is listed above.  I will say this at the end of the day either bitfloor will comeback or something like it will pop up to take its place.  Having just Mtgox (mainly I know there are other but) is just not an option.  I am not sure how they do things in Japan but I will say that for us U.S. folks bitfloor hit a solid home run and so we need something like that again.  (Just with better security ops Smiley )

Get paid to be social and visit HypeWizard today!  www.hypewiz.com
AR-15 80% at www.uspatriotarmory.com
my Cryptanalys.is profile
Otoh
Donator
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1036



View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 07:38:19 PM
 #425

Why can't someone invent a machine that can be switched on or off to connect to the internet and it's only purpose is to be a bitcoin wallet. It can have a little screen that says how many BTC you have. Just connect and it updates and disconnect. And the main thing would be if you needed to send BTC, it would require you to insert some type of key or swipe a card or something.

There's definitely profit to be made by coming up with a way to keep coins that is both secure and easy to use (but not necessarily cheap or free!).

needs:



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320973579902 I didn't win it Undecided but at least the image is free

BTC = $c²     LTC = $c³     BTC = 1otohotohMoQoxHuxLBveQiZcV3Pji3Tc     LTC = LQMHQ6haTzVa2uKkxFAaujEqmzkbHBzt7i     NXT = 9862336831998627827     

BITCOIN: ♦  Just-Dice.com  ♦   ♦  1% House Edge Dice Game  ♦   ♦  Play or Invest  ♦     LITECOIN: INTRO | CLIENT | EXCHANGE | CHARTS | MINING | FORUM | ASTRO | A REPORT ON LTC | NEWS | PRIZES | CHARITY | MY REP | DICE
rjbtc
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 69


View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 07:46:13 PM
 #426

Why can't someone invent a machine that can be switched on or off to connect to the internet and it's only purpose is to be a bitcoin wallet. It can have a little screen that says how many BTC you have. Just connect and it updates and disconnect. And the main thing would be if you needed to send BTC, it would require you to insert some type of key or swipe a card or something.

Something like a cheap netbook with Linux and a flash drive?

BTC: 1AYWtqieXoQZnuT4iEk6MDEXBkdVd5BykN
unclemantis
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98


(:firstbits => "1mantis")


View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 08:46:01 PM
 #427

I've personally met Roman a number of times, and even worked with him on a project (thewalletlist.com). I have significant funds with bitfloor (mostly USD, 5 figures), and I'm not at all concerned that he's going to run off with any of it. Dunno if that helps reassure at all. I totally understand the suspicion -- it's easy to get frightened and let your imagination run wild when your money hangs in the balance.

Also knowing Roman, $250k is probably not all that much money to him. It seems totally counter to his interests for him to destroy his reputation in the bitcoin world for what amounts to a mediocre sum. On the other hand, he has a lot to gain by resolving this situation responsibly (and ideally, without bankruptcy) and earning a good chunk of reputation and trust. I'm convinced he will do so, enough so that I'd gladly take the "Roman is not a thief" side of a betting contract Smiley.

As far as the future...

It would be sad to see Bitfloor fold! It has a lot of good aspects, most notably it has far and away the best exchange technology platform. I'm talking about the matching engine design and algorithms and apis, not the security obviously. I say this having done automated trading with mtgox, campbx, virwox, and tradehill -- in my view bitfloor is a large step ahead of all of these.

On the other hand, an exchange is more than just a fast matching engine. It needs a whole supporting team; legal, banking, accounting, security, marketing etc. This may be the wakeup call Roman needs to see that Bitfloor may benefit from some help. I've long thought that a partnership where Roman handles the exchange technology, and others deal with other components, could produce something really robust and good. Whether that means hiring other people, selling out to another exchange, or just leasing technology/support to an exchange; I'm not sure.

For getting out of the immediate slump -- my favorite idea so far is for Roman to raise funds by selling preferred shares -- equity & debt -- to bring on small handful of investors (including yours truly Smiley. He should maintain more than 50% equity for sure, so the shares can be mostly debt with a smallish equity component. The debt should be countersigned by Roman personally and probably repay aggressively i.e. 100% of revenues until it's been fully repaid. With an arrangement like this I expect he can attract enough investors to make this just a bump in the road for Bitfloor.

I am sure his lawyer has told him to keep his mouth shut at this moment.

I do hope Bitfloor doesn't fold. I am working on a project right now and my partner and I would LOVE to partner up with Bitfloor.

I will try and just bite the bullet. Smiley

PHP, Ruby, Rails, ASP, JavaScript, SQL
20+ years experience w/ Internet Technologies
Bitcoin OTC | GPG Public Key                                                                               thoughts?
shtylman
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 243



View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 08:48:13 PM
 #428

Bitfloor status update - September 6, 2012 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=106251.0)
qxzn
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504



View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 09:50:02 PM
 #429

Relevant comment from a newbie thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=106234.0
marcus_of_augustus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1134



View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 10:40:29 PM
 #430

Why can't someone invent a machine that can be switched on or off to connect to the internet and it's only purpose is to be a bitcoin wallet. It can have a little screen that says how many BTC you have. Just connect and it updates and disconnect. And the main thing would be if you needed to send BTC, it would require you to insert some type of key or swipe a card or something.

There's definitely profit to be made by coming up with a way to keep coins that is both secure and easy to use (but not necessarily cheap or free!).

Automated multi-sig is the answer to this ... Gavin already outlined it in one of his blog posts.

Monetary Freedom - a basic human right
"Disarming money as a tool for tyranny."
"Disintermediating the State."
BorderBits
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 262


View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 11:30:52 PM
 #431

It's absolutely amazing to see that someone loses $200k+ through, at minimum, gross negligence, and this community rallies behind them and suggests they raise money through an IPO.  There is no sympathy to be had anytime these idiots get scammed.  I've never seen so many gullible marks gathered in one place. 

Did Mr. Bitfloor know about Bruce Wagner's mortgage fraud and pedophilia before or after appearing on his show?  If the answer is the former (and it's REALLY hard to believe he hadn't heard a thing about it), why would anyone dealing with BTC trust someone who willingly and enthusiastically promotes their business with a known scammer and pedophile? 
iCEBREAKER
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630


Bitcoin is the separation of Money and State.


View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 11:45:34 PM
 #432

Customer assets are customer assets.  It doesn't matter if they are dollars, bitcoins or bananas.  If BitFloor does not have reserves (and that was reported in OP) or any other way to make customers whole, then this is a bankruptcy case.  This exchange is operating in the U.S., there are very specific laws as to how to proceed.

Disbursing funds to some customers and not others would be a criminal act under those.

I believe a court order (injunction) should be filed to help ensure the exchange operator proceeds as prescribed by law.

Bitcoins were stolen, not cash. That cash is not Bitfloors to distribute to other customers. It's mine.

Doesn't work that way in the U.S.

A quick search and I couldn't find the exact description about how customer funds are pooled (giving a net balance), regardless if the account had a balance of securities or cash, then disbursed. 

Here's from Canada, which is pretty much the same in the U.S.

^^^What total idiocy.  Next time, listen to your intellectual superiors instead of the low-information voices in your hollow shell of a head thing.   Wink

After careful consideration, ACH withdrawals of USD from Bitfloor will soon be re-enabled, with details to be posted on bitfloor.com.

cheers,
~Roman


Bwah-haha-hahaha!  Gornick jurisprudence FTW!!1!

Please Steve, tell everyone "how it works in the U.S." again.  Share some more of your hilarious 'Canadian legal wisdom.' 

I could use another good laugh at your (thieving communist) expense.   Grin

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
jwzguy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 868



View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 11:46:26 PM
 #433

This user is currently ignored.
I'm sorry, what's that? I'm sure it was important and insightful, maybe post it again.

19wXnWTeGuraN9g5UsMAi119sWzDCQcr7S
Bitcoin Logo shirts!
iCEBREAKER
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630


Bitcoin is the separation of Money and State.


View Profile

Ignore
September 06, 2012, 11:52:16 PM
 #434

Replace word "bitcoins" by "potatoes" and any judge will figure out on the spot what to do.

Why would any judge with half a brain do that?

Potatoes are real items, produced by potato farmers farming their potato farms.

Bitcoins are just numbers, produced by an experiment requiring voluntary, willful participation.

You and Gornick should partner up and start an internet law firm.  You can specialize in ridiculous, inapplicable arguments without basis in reality.

And stealing USD, "because bitcoin."

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
iCEBREAKER
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630


Bitcoin is the separation of Money and State.


View Profile

Ignore
September 07, 2012, 12:03:53 AM
 #435

Quote
Those are my USD, not yours . . .

This is not at all clear under US law, which would presumably apply given Bitfloor's ties to the US.

Wrong!  Roman has talked with a lawyer, and of course that lawyer confirmed what was immediately obvious to those of us possessing both ethics and intellect.

Why presume to speak about which you know nothing?  It only leads to public embarrassment.

What a shame that so many strain (to no avail in this case) to overturn its common law, common sense, and common decency in the name of Marxist notions of equal outcomes and false 'fairness.'

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
BorderBits
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 262


View Profile

Ignore
September 07, 2012, 12:12:47 AM
 #436

This user is currently ignored.
I'm sorry, what's that? I'm sure it was important and insightful, maybe post it again.

Hey look, a bitcoiner plugging his ears and shouting "lalalalalala."  Man it's funny to watch idiots get scammed.  Where's my popcorn? 
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966



View Profile WWW

Ignore
September 07, 2012, 12:13:55 AM
 #437

Let it go iCEBREAKER.

Gerald Davis  CEO, Tangible Cryptography Inc.
BitSimple. A simpler way to buy and sell bitcoins
iCEBREAKER
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630


Bitcoin is the separation of Money and State.


View Profile

Ignore
September 07, 2012, 12:14:10 AM
 #438

Quote
Those are my USD, not yours . . .

This is not at all clear under US law, which would presumably apply given Bitfloor's ties to the US.

Au contraire, US law is perfectly clear on the matter:

Quote
No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Actually, that clause is exactly the problem.  Until due process of law, it is not legally clear whether any of the USD controlled by bitfloor is the property of those who had BTC on deposit, the property of bitfloor, or solely the property of those who have USD on deposit with bitfloor.  Bitfloor therefore cannot legally give USD to anyone until due process determines exactly whose property each and every $0.01 is.

Here's your "due process" champ: Roman talked to a lawyer, who told him exactly what Death&Taxes, myself, and others have been saying all along.   Cheesy

Here's your "legal clarity" ace: The burden is on those who 'lost' BTC to sue those of us who are looking forward to a nice, juicy ACH transfer into our happy bank accounts.

Good luck with that flimsy pretext, which will be thrown out of court like last week's garbage as completely frivolous and totally without merit.

Recognition of property rights is enshrined in the US Constitution.  Specifically, the 5th Amendment.  If you can't understand that, STFU when the adults are talking.   Cool

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
iCEBREAKER
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630


Bitcoin is the separation of Money and State.


View Profile

Ignore
September 07, 2012, 12:18:37 AM
 #439

Holding our USD without our consent is illegal.  BitFloor must start accepting and processing USD withdrawals ASAP.
Unfortunately for those of us who had significant USD balances at Bitfloor, what others are saying is correct: Roman must now cease all activity — even activity that many of us would consider "the right thing to do" — and seek legal counsel. Assuming everything is handled sanely in the court system (a big assumption), we might expect a refund of our USD balances in a few months — either all or in part, depending on whether the balances were legally segregated and allocated, which I doubt they were.

Nope, they (and you) were 100% flat-out wrong.  That's what happens when you disagree with me.  You turn out to be wrong.  Usually sooner than later.   Grin

Cheers to Roman for doing the right thing, and for checking with a lawyer to make sure the law still allows for such outrageous meritorious actions!

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
iCEBREAKER
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630


Bitcoin is the separation of Money and State.


View Profile

Ignore
September 07, 2012, 12:30:31 AM
 #440

Quote
Those are my USD, not yours . . .

This is not at all clear under US law, which would presumably apply given Bitfloor's ties to the US.

Au contraire, US law is perfectly clear on the matter:

Quote
No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


These are all things for the legal council (and if it goes to U.S. court, the judge) to decide in order to figure out what actions are appropriate. That's where the "due process of law" comes in. You're entitled to your process, BitFloor is entitled to theirs. BitFloor seeking legal council is where he ensures that he is acting in a way most within the law. Your process would be serving BitFloor and/or suing them.

Things are not that simple that withdrawals can happen just for the solvent parts of the business held; welcome to the world of BitCoin, where everything is without absolute legal precedent (yet). If a legal precedent can be set that the BTC has value, it would be illegal for them to use any portion of the assets (including remaining balances held for what wasn't hacked) to pay out to anybody until the appropriate process on reimbursing has been determined in court.

This WILL not be a quick process. The only quick process would be if the coins were returned by the hacker, or if someone invested BTC in BitFloor in exchange for ownership (or a portion of). I'd imagine this case (albeit not a likely one) is the one that BitFloor is hoping for the most.

Best case for USD holders (and worst case for BTC holders) is that his legal council (or the court system) determines that BTC will be considered "worthless" and that USD should be distributed to account holders as it's the only part of BitFloor that needs to be legally held solvent. However, I can just about guarantee that if this happens, anyone holding a large amount of BTC will file an injunction and appeal, which will almost certainly prevent payout of USD funds from happening quickly.

Hang on folks, this is likely to be an interesting one, especially since it's occurring in the oh-so-litigious US.

Making a very simple case of ownership too complex and complicated to be dealt with without expensive lawyers is a hallmark of cultural Marxism.

In this case, happily, you have utterly failed to correctly predict the immediate future.  That's a good reason to start checking your premises.

There were never any due process concerns, that was just a weak, lousy excuse to steal USD by those who lost BTC.

So much for your certainty that "This WILL not be a quick process."

So much for your "guarantee
that if this happens, anyone holding a large amount of BTC will file an injunction and appeal, which will almost certainly prevent payout of USD funds from happening quickly."

Maybe Gornick and Vladimir will let you join their internet law firm, and help them lose 100% of their cases by making specious Marxist arguments that fly directly in the face of common law, common sense, and common decency?

Fail, Failure, and Falemore. 
Internet Attorneys at Fail Law. 
A proven track record of blithering ignorance. 
Specializing in not recovering stolen BTC since 2010.

"Current payment systems simply can’t compete with bitcoin’s fees, security and convenience.  Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on bank fees per year and lose hair as money transfers bounce from bank to bank during a wire transfer sometimes taking days to reach its destination, when it can clear within minutes and for mere pennies?  As a currency, no sovereign can match it.  As a payment system, no financial institution can compete with it.  As a distributed network, no government can stop it."     -Chris Horlacher
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 [22] 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!