Re: Butterfly Labs CEO 25 Million USD Mail Fraud — A Concise Summary of Evidence

[Syke]

* Who owns BFL?
Inaba said it's a shareholder owned LLC, and that Sonny is not the majority shareholder
* Who runs BFL?
Inaba and Sonny said that Nasser is the CEO, and Chris, Sonny's stepfather, is the President

These are all things the community has had to dig up. Why is BFL so secretive on basic business topics? What other skeletons in the closet are they trying to hide?

* Why does BFL not have a business license?
Inaba confirmed that BFL is a registered Limited Liability Corporation, registered in Wyoming. What license are you asking for?

All business are required to obtain a license in the states that they do business.

https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/csearch.asp

Not having a license is likely tax evasion, another Felony to add to the list. You'd think with the countless millions in pre-order funds they could affort to hire someone that's taken a Business 101 class.

[Rassah]

* Who owns BFL?
Inaba said it's a shareholder owned LLC, and that Sonny is not the majority shareholder
* Who runs BFL?
Inaba and Sonny said that Nasser is the CEO, and Chris, Sonny's stepfather, is the President

These are all things the community has had to dig up. Why is BFL so secretive on basic business topics? What other skeletons in the closet are they trying to hide?

These were things stated on the forum and the interviews. The only reason for digging is that forum posts get quickly covered by other noise.

* Why does BFL not have a business license?
Inaba confirmed that BFL is a registered Limited Liability Corporation, registered in Wyoming. What license are you asking for?

All business are required to obtain a license in the states that they do business.

https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/csearch.asp

Not having a license is likely tax evasion, another Felony to add to the list. You'd think with the countless millions in pre-order funds they could affort to hire someone that's taken a Business 101 class.

Incorrect. A business license is not required, especially if the business is owned by a single person, since the person reports income and pays taxes directly. In BFL's case, their LLC  is the entity that is registered with the state and the entity that pays taxes. I don't know if BFL LLC has a tax ID (I would expect so), but tax IDs are not something freely given out by businesses, since they are like Social Security numbers (at my work, we are required to shred any documents with business TID's when we throw them away). So that IS their "license." Also, don't forget that the whole purpose of getting an LLC in another state is so that your business can pay taxes in a state where tax laws are more favorable, and not in the state where business is conducted.

[franky1]

i actually appreciate your reply on the matter, but id much rather have straight answers from the BFL rep's themselves, instead of us having to dig everything up.

i appreciate your replies, but want to here the same mature response and answers from the BFL reps themselves.

straight questions have been asked but no straight answers have been given.
treating sonny as just an employee with no major stake in the company sidelines the fact that although he is hiding who RUNS the company by having different names on the door.

EG
i can run a company and take a salary of $200,000 a year, do all the day to day business, but pay a handfull of people $10k a year to do 2 hours a week and give them the title of board of directors.

sonny is not just an employee who happen to come across BFL and hand in his CV to the established company. he was part of its inception.

so again i would like a BFL rep to confirm

is nasser the in house CEO that runs the day to day duties in the company??

<P.S inaba i know you can type fast to create your insulting waffle and avoid straight answers. but what is even faster is the straight answer. a paragraph of waffle insults takes longer to write then the straight forward answers. especially when you write pages of insulting paragraphs. 1 straight answer PLEASE!!. >

is nasser the in house CEO that runs the day to day duties in the company??

[Syke]

their LLC  is the entity that is registered with the state and the entity that pays taxes.

I'm glad we agree they should be registered with the state. But a search of sos.mo.gov shows no such registration. Feel free to prove me wrong. Here, I'll even provide the link for you...

https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/csearch.asp

But why do we need to search at all? Why won't BFL provide their MO registration? It's not a secret tax ID number. It's a public registration.

[Rassah]

Typically the President and/or managers run the day-to-day duties of companies, while CEOs are usually only in charge of making big decisions, and sometimes even work for multiple companies.
But, regardless, let's say Inaba answers that, no, Nasser is not "in-house," does live in Paris while communicating over Skype, and does not run day to day duties of the company. What would be your next question/statement? I'm curious as to where the "Aha!" comes in.

[Rassah]

their LLC  is the entity that is registered with the state and the entity that pays taxes.

I'm glad we agree they should be registered with the state. But a search of sos.mo.gov shows no such registration. Feel free to prove me wrong. Here, I'll even provide the link for you...

https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/csearch.asp

But why do we need to search at all? Why won't BFL provide their MO registration? It's not a secret tax ID number. It's a public registration.

They should be registered with A state. Their registration number is 2011-000606261. Here's the link to their state registration:
https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=149144214231010201167112190255028042109060235081

Any business they do, regardless of actual location, is registered through the state in which they are incorporated. Any taxes and reports of income or expenses they have, regardless of where in the world they work, get reported and paid by that corporate entity to the state it is registered in. No other state/ county, or other registrations are required. As long as their LLC pays federal taxes to US, and state taxes to the state where it is registered, no other taxes, licenses, or registrations are required.
I know corporate law (somewhat, since it was part of my education). Moreover, I just went through the process of registering an LLC, and doing related tax search, myself. Stop pulling at straws.


And BTW, I am not defending BFL against legitimate questions, do not trust BFL myself, and am not willing to put my own reputation behind them. I am only answering questions that have already been answered previously (note I don't say "they are such and such," I say "Sonny claimed such and such," pointing out that we still hate to take them at their word). And I am pointing out or reffuting information that is incorrect, don't make sense, or is only based on speculation. It's all I usually ever do.

[Syke]

Damn it. I had hoped I wouldn't need to educate you on the concept of foreign business entities. You can't just set up shop in a foreign state without registering with said state. They are doing business in MO. They must register with MO.

Don't take my word for it...

http://www.sos.mo.gov/business/corporations/startBusiness.asp

Foreign corporations "transacting business" in Missouri must first register with the Secretary of State. Because a foreign corporation has already filed its articles of incorporation in another jurisdiction, it does not file articles of incorporation in Missouri; instead, it obtains a certificate of authority to do business in Missouri. There is a fee of $155 to obtain a certificate of authority.

[Rassah]

Damn it. I had hoped I wouldn't need to educate you on the concept of foreign business entities. You can't just set up shop in a foreign state without registering with said state. They are doing business in MO. They must register with MO.

Don't take my word for it...

http://www.sos.mo.gov/business/corporations/startBusiness.asp

Foreign corporations "transacting business" in Missouri must first register with the Secretary of State. Because a foreign corporation has already filed its articles of incorporation in another jurisdiction, it does not file articles of incorporation in Missouri; instead, it obtains a certificate of authority to do business in Missouri. There is a fee of $155 to obtain a certificate of authority.

Here's what I found:
http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/incorporation-and-legal-structures/conducting-business-as-a-corporation-or-an-llc-out-of-state.html

Yes, you are right, many types of businesses would need to register. But the relevant parts here that may exempt BFL are
Sales conducted through independent contractors in that state
and
A company that conducts all its business across state lines, such as transporting goods from one state to another, is engaged in interstate business. Consequently, the company does not need to qualify to conduct business in the foreign state or pay state taxes.

So, maybe they are not actually "doing business" in Missouri, but just have their assembly "plant" there, with their business being global, and thus maybe they don't need to register with Missouri specifically. Or maybe you're right, and they are registered, but either under another name, or under a different list that you can't search. Or maybe they are doing something illegal, whether intentional or not.

[franky1]

Typically the President and/or managers run the day-to-day duties of companies, while CEOs are usually only in charge of making big decisions, and sometimes even work for multiple companies.
But, regardless, let's say Inaba answers that, no, Nasser is not "in-house," does live in Paris while communicating over Skype, and does not run day to day duties of the company. What would be your next question/statement? I'm curious as to where the "Aha!" comes in.

my 'ahai' moment comes at the same time you 'ahai' moment comes

I would like to know what specific functions Sonny carries out within BFL. Is he a director, president, owner, CEO, founder, employee, or a combination of some or all of the above? Also, what is the history of his involvement with BFL?

^ +1. Unlike the other stupid questions, this is really the only one that matters.

which still is not answered fully by BFL reps themselves.

i have kept my question ontopic trying to ascertain the role sonny plays as BFL reps state that nasser is in the driving seat and sonny is just another of the 22 employees. the quotes from myself to you Rassah were in a private message about the bigger picture of the last 9 months of BFL, sidelining the main question of this topic.

so lets just get to the route of this topic and leave other matters for other threads.

[niko]

Meh, I have a small order with BFL and still expect delivery within the next few months.  I won't be declaring it a scam if I don't have my order by the end of October.  I'm a programmer and realise deadlines do often slip.

Do these revelations about the CEO's past concern me?  You bet.  But BFL does have a track record of delivering products so I think it's premature to call BFL an elaborate scam.

I paid for my order by credit card through PayPal.  If on the off chance BFL decides to take the money and run I have two avenues of legal recourse.  The much hyped lack of charge backs when paying via bitcoin would be a definite disadvantage here.

Who called it a scam? Link? Quote?

Noone did, but a lot of ppl think so.

The general sentiment in this thread was simply that of concern - customers and potential customers were raising perfectly reasonable questions about the nature of business and connections to documented criminal activities of at one of the players. Inaba and few other "defenders" responded rather emotionally, implying that some of these questions were actually direct and explicit accusations of a scam. Even if someone did hysterically make such accusations, I would hope Inaba would ignore them and remain focused on reasonable concerns, instead of using these accusations to derail and discredit this whole thread.


 

[franky1]

Who called it a scam? Link? Quote?

Noone did, but a lot of ppl think so.

The general sentiment in this thread was simply that of concern - customers and potential customers were raising perfectly reasonable questions about the nature of business and connections to documented criminal activities of at one of the players. Inaba and few other "defenders" responded rather emotionally, implying that some of these questions were actually direct and explicit accusations of a scam. Even if someone did hysterically make such accusations, I would hope Inaba would ignore them and remain focused on reasonable concerns, instead of using these accusations to derail and discredit this whole thread.

agreed. i personally had concerns and never outrightly shouted 'scam' my concerns were purely to do with the 'excuses' in their answers.
i did make one comment that their cryptic answers about saying everything made inhouse then next saying parts shipped in was similar.. but never an out right ccusation . well read it urself

INABA in the past said they produce the chips........... thats why i wanted him to say it again now everyone knows they are altera based.

secondly saying your a processor manufacturer.. is different to being a circuit designer.. ASUS, whom make motherboards do not claim to be CPU manufacturers..... same analogy goes for BFL.. so far we have seen them only make products using third party chips. i wanted INABA to confirm this. to counter his previous posts. or to uphold his position that they did indeed make the FPGA chip.

flame me all you like but making a sub $200 circit board using third party parts to gain trust, to then get the big money. is similar practice of many ponzi, pyramid and Pirate scams.

so as i have also pre-ordered. i am frustrated to see INABA say one thing, which contradicts what is found in the real world on websites and by actually finding out information.
EG sonny actually being a director and not just an employee of BFL

i have only posted 60 messages at this point so its easy to use your browser 'find' function to see a outright scam accusation. there isnt one.

we just find the misleading information given by BFL reps, which later you call tinfoil hat evidence very concerning once you try to back-track those statements.

but back to the topic.. whos in the driving seat of BFL not who has the 'pink slip'.

[repentance]

Typically the President and/or managers run the day-to-day duties of companies, while CEOs are usually only in charge of making big decisions, and sometimes even work for multiple companies.

While this is typically true in the corporate world, people running small businesses have a habit of giving themselves vanity titles which bear little resemblance to their actual duties within a company.  Self-awarded titles are pretty meaningless and in no way reflect the duties or the capabilities of those who choose them.  Styling yourself as the CEO or COO of a small business doesn't make you sound important, it just makes you sound like an egotistical wanker.

[Rassah]

Typically the President and/or managers run the day-to-day duties of companies, while CEOs are usually only in charge of making big decisions, and sometimes even work for multiple companies.

While this is typically true in the corporate world, people running small businesses have a habit of giving themselves vanity titles which bear little resemblance to their actual duties within a company.  Self-awarded titles are pretty meaningless and in no way reflect the duties or the capabilities of those who choose them.  Styling yourself as the CEO or COO of a small business doesn't make you sound important, it just makes you sound like an egotistical wanker.

Absolutely true. And again, underscores the point that who is the CEO, and where he resides, is pretty much irrelevant. Personally, I don't see any concerns regarding this business other than "Sonny has a shady history," and no assuagions other than "He's not a majority stakeholder, and is not in charge." Almost everything else that has been brought up, from corporate registration in another state, to a CEO residing overseas, to buying parts from other companies, to even not having a public address for their manufacturing facility, as pretty much normal business practice.
On the other hand, Inaba HAS made things worse by feeding the trolls, and refusing to answer simple questions with just "yes" or "no," instead posting long tirades about tinfoil hats and such. This might sound weird, but one of the best customer reps examples I've seen on this forum was from MtGox's Mark, and Bitfloor's Roman. Way too many others are as bad as Inaba.

[franky1]

i appreciate your answers hold merit, more so then INABA's but the reasons for asking questions has been missed. it might be better to just let INABA answer them.

Absolutely true. And again, underscores the point that who is the CEO, and where he resides, is pretty much irrelevant.

analogy
owning the pink slip to a car doesn't mean ur the main driver, nor does it mean no one else can drive it. take many teenagers for instance. their first car can be put in their parents name and have the kid as just a named extra.

BFL want people to think nasser owns the pink slip and does the day to day 'driving'. we want to know who is the driver so if theres ever a crash we know who is at the route of the problem.

so showing nasser is in paris, means he is not the driver.

but we want inaba to confirm or deny that.

Personally, I don't see any concerns regarding this business other than "Sonny has a shady history," and no assuagions other than "He's not a majority stakeholder, and is not in charge."

other 'assuagions' are that 'sonny is just one of the other 22 employee' brushing the issue off as if he only holds the title of a janitor or the delivery guy to the post office, nothing meaningful in the business.

lots of people are trying to get to the bottom of who's in the driving seat, not who's holds the title. By proving nasser is not doing the day to day business stuff, controlling the employees duties inhouse shows nasser is just a title holder.

i agree INABA should rise above some comments, but insulting his customers instead of answering questions is nothing to do with feeding trolls.. its to do with avoiding the truth..

but he can insult all he likes.. its not like 'franky1' is a legal entity that would care about libel accusations. its just a nickname. but by providing insults just ruins the credibility of his own nickname and known associations.

so lets leave INABA to answer the question
is nasser the ACTIVE CEO in control of the day-to-day runnings inhouse

[smoothie]

i appreciate your answers hold merit, more so then INABA's but the reasons for asking questions has been missed. it might be better to just let INABA answer them.

Absolutely true. And again, underscores the point that who is the CEO, and where he resides, is pretty much irrelevant.

analogy
owning the pink slip to a car doesn't mean ur the main driver, nor does it mean no one else can drive it. take many teenagers for instance. their first car can be put in their parents name and have the kid as just a named extra.

BFL want people to think nasser owns the pink slip and does the day to day 'driving'. we want to know who is the driver so if theres ever a crash we know who is at the route of the problem.

so showing nasser is in paris, means he is not the driver.

but we want inaba to confirm or deny that.

Personally, I don't see any concerns regarding this business other than "Sonny has a shady history," and no assuagions other than "He's not a majority stakeholder, and is not in charge."

other 'assuagions' are that 'sonny is just one of the other 22 employee' brushing the issue off as if he only holds the title of a janitor or the delivery guy to the post office, nothing meaningful in the business.

lots of people are trying to get to the bottom of who's in the driving seat, not who's holds the title. By proving nasser is not doing the day to day business stuff, controlling the employees duties inhouse shows nasser is just a title holder.

i agree INABA should rise above some comments, but insulting his customers instead of answering questions is nothing to do with feeding trolls.. its to do with avoiding the truth..

but he can insult all he likes.. its not like 'franky1' is a legal entity that would care about libel accusations. its just a nickname. but by providing insults just ruins the credibility of his own nickname and known associations.

so lets leave INABA to answer the question
is nasser the ACTIVE CEO in control of the day-to-day runnings inhouse

Inaba would be better off at least answering "i dont know" rather than not saying anything because that gives reason to believe he is hiding something.

[niko]

He paid his debt to society. To believe he can not reform his past ways is to believe either; no one is able to make mistakes, or that they can not change their ways if they do make mistakes. I believe neither. I will give him the benefit of the doubt based on the above and the following, for now:

I got my BFL singles, they are working great, and I got them considerably faster than the time frame promised by BLF. In other words, BFL has kept their promise to me so far and sold me value.

I dont care how he made them so long as: it was lawful, the specifications I read at the time of purchase are accurate, and doesnt compromise my ability to make bitcoins from them in any way.

If he does not deliver my SC pre-order by January 13, 2013, they do not perform as listed, and/or the BFL singles or the SC singles go dead before at least breaking even, then I will have issues with Butterfly Labs and Sonny/Josh/Inaba

A mistake would be when I use a wrong fuse and things blow up, or when I add too much salt and ruin a dish. Calling an elaborate, years-long scam a "mistake" is not appropriate. It's a premeditated crime. There was no mistake: it worked out exactly as planned. The rest of your post I can agree with.

[MrTeal]

He paid his debt to society. To believe he can not reform his past ways is to believe either; no one is able to make mistakes, or that they can not change their ways if they do make mistakes. I believe neither. I will give him the benefit of the doubt based on the above and the following, for now:

I got my BFL singles, they are working great, and I got them considerably faster than the time frame promised by BLF. In other words, BFL has kept their promise to me so far and sold me value.

I dont care how he made them so long as: it was lawful, the specifications I read at the time of purchase are accurate, and doesnt compromise my ability to make bitcoins from them in any way.

If he does not deliver my SC pre-order by January 13, 2013, they do not perform as listed, and/or the BFL singles or the SC singles go dead before at least breaking even, then I will have issues with Butterfly Labs and Sonny/Josh/Inaba

A mistake would be when I use a wrong fuse and things blow up, or when I add too much salt and ruin a dish. Calling an elaborate, years-long scam a "mistake" is not appropriate. It's a premeditated crime. There was no mistake: it worked out exactly as planned. The rest of your post I can agree with.

mistake, error, lapse in judgement, crime, whatever. Its all the same in this context as far as I am concerned. Hows about we just agree that its "doing something wrong in the past that makes us concerned, dilligent and watchful, but certainly not forgetful, and we might be able to conditionally overlook or forgive". We all have our own conditions.

I know people who have done wrong in the past and they are good people who can do good things. I also know the opposite. Lets just say that I am an optimist. Dont let me down BFL!

So if I understand this correctly, according to your laws of euphemisms "Did a little boo-boo" is about equivalent to "Shot that dude in the face and pissed in his eye socket."

The guy was a central figure in a scam to bilk the elderly that succeeded to the tune of $19M. That wasn't a mistake, it was exactly what they intended. It just makes him a grade A asshole.

[repentance]

The guy was a central figure in a scam to bilk the elderly that succeeded to the tune of $19M. That wasn't a mistake, it was exactly what they intended. It just makes him a grade A asshole.

I think that bothers me most is Sonny trying to explain it away as "jurisdiction arbitrage" or a government conspiracy.  No-one who has read the documents can believe that a scheme which was so aggressively marketed and which openly lied to its users about what was being done with their money was a victim of some kind of technicality.  It was outright fraud and no amount of spin changes that.  Sonny trying to portray himself as some kind of victim of the US government is at odds with someone who has honestly turned their life around and regrets their past actions.

[niko]

The guy was a central figure in a scam to bilk the elderly that succeeded to the tune of $19M. That wasn't a mistake, it was exactly what they intended. It just makes him a grade A asshole.

I think that bothers me most is Sonny trying to explain it away as "jurisdiction arbitrage" or a government conspiracy.  No-one who has read the documents can believe that a scheme which was so aggressively marketed and which openly lied to its users about what was being done with their money was a victim of some kind of technicality.  It was outright fraud and no amount of spin changes that.  Sonny trying to portray himself as some kind of victim of the US government is at odds with someone who has honestly turned their life around and regrets their past actions.

Yes, that is actually to only real sticking point for me: okay, the guy was an asshole and a lier. Okay, he is now involved with BFL. What's not okay is that he and BFL still portray the negative facts as anything from "had a colorful past" to "none of your business" to "you are idiots." That's definitely not a good sign.

[Bitinvestor]

Sonny trying to portray himself as some kind of victim of the US government is at odds with someone who has honestly turned their life around and regrets their past actions.

I would go along with that if there were any real evidence to back it up. What I see when I look at BFL is a company that tickles my BS detectors like few others -- they just don't act like a reputable company would. Even before his criminal past became known there were plenty of red flags.