Re: Butterfly Labs CEO 25 Million USD Mail Fraud — A Concise Summary of Evidence

[Otoh]

I've only just came across this thread & as yet read up to the requests for photos of the Mini rig, so here's a few that I took of it with Josh, etc from the London conference:

[Bogart]

...when I see a company that's taken millions of dollars in pre-orders for a product whilst providing incredibly little information on that product, and the CEO turns out to have a conviction for a 25 million dollar wire fraud that involved taking payment up front for products that weren't legit...

They do appear to have taken millions:

                               Qty  Dollar value
Inferred total orders:         7029 $9857206.97802198

Even if we assume that 20% of their orders were non-payers, refunded, test orders, etc, they still would have collected ~$7.88 million in pre-order money.

Given the sum involved, maybe we should give this idea some more thought:

Guys, i'm starting a fund to hire a private investigator in Kansas. Who wants to chime in? If you're serious, you can send PM my way.

I have a list of private investigators, but we can discuss who and how much we should pay.

FYI, private investigator can pull alot more personal records that we can ever be able to. Depend on the fee, even driving infractions can be seen.

I have dealt with a PI here locally b4, its a must have service "sometimes"

Had I invested in this thing, I might want to have someone keeping an eye on that investment.

[The-Real-Link]

I'd be more worried about JP Morgan & Chase's acquisition of BF Labs Inc., than I would be about if they're going to deliver ASICs or not. JP Morgan & Chase has been interested in BTC since the June '11 bubble. It would take a measly ~$630,000 investment on behalf of JP Morgan & Chase to bring down the entire network assuming 1TH/s SC minirigs actually exist, or might exist in the near future; this is a threat.

That'd be kinda true but what about the dozen or so other Mini Rigs that others have purchased along with the (probably hundreds) of SC Singles, let alone Jalapenos?  If BFL delivered to Chase, they'd also deliver to everyone else.  

Further up the thread it was guessed that roughly $7-10M worth of new BFL products sold.   So if all that gets added to the network, Chase would need at least that much (GPUs at this point are being factored out) to get 50% or more of the network.  

Either way, it's a pidly $20M-ish.  They (and many others) could yawn and spend that much.

Oh and nice shots Otoh!

[greyhawk]

I've only just came across this thread & as yet read up to the requests for photos of the Mini rig, so here's a few that I took of it with Josh, etc from the London conference:

That's an FPGA minirig. We know they exist, we have pictures of how they look like when they are not prettied up for conference purposes. What is this supposed to demonstrate?

[tvbcof]

I just got a personal message from Sonny. ...  I wonder if anyone else has received such a pm?

No communications here, and do concur that Sonny would know the ropes in regard to forum communications, for he was editor of Laissez Faire City Times newsletter and owns webspawner.com since 1995, of which begs the question--who ran said site while the Greek geek was sitting in a Dago jail for two years? It had to be somebody he put the utmost trust into.

Ah.  I'd quoted in an unusual way something I thought was funny; the part about 'cocaine stealing his boyish looks' and before/after 'scared straight' stuff.  I guess BFL_sonny did not catch that.

Assuming whoever uses that handle is reading this, here is my response to the pm:  It's a mistake.  The pics were dead links unfortunately since I would have liked to see how well they went with the copy.  Just follow Phin's link to the offshorwatch conversation (I think it was.)  Second post from the top is where the text I quoted came from.

---

BTW, Phin, Your question is both phrased in an amusing manner which made me laugh, and a good question besides.

[JMAHH]

...

You're right, when I see a company that's taken millions of dollars in pre-orders for a product whilst providing incredibly little information on that product, and the CEO turns out to have a conviction for a 25 million dollar wire fraud that involved taking payment up front for products that weren't legit, and then someone representing the company goes on a pissy little rant about how "entitled" the customers who've given them millions of dollars are, I think; "Shit, those people are so crazy and entitled, they should trust the convicted multi-million dollar fraudster and his company despite their total lack of transparency".

If it's anything, I was considering ordering an SC single, a bASIC and an Avalon.
Now I'm ordering 2 bASIC's and an Avalon.

<3

QFT

[makomk]

Spreading fud huh? So quoting Toms comment in his own thread that he is using cell based ASIC is FUD huh? Nice to know.

Saying that's the same thing as a structured ASIC when it's not and claiming that means it's going to have inferior power consumption to BFL's supposed ASIC (which is almost certainly going to be cell-based itself if it actualy exists since even major manufacturers with really high-volume products don't have the cash to do full custom ASICs these days) is definitely spreading FUD.

[Desolator]

Okay, I have to ask about pic 2....anti-disease measures, some engineering/modding/don't breathe this stuff thing, or anonymity devices?

[Raize]

At the risk of divulging too much about myself, I was told to watch that communications between BFL and the community would improve, and they have. I would highly recommend that you guys not go on a witchhunt regarding Sonny or BFL. Remain skeptical, sure, but don't cross into that point where you imply something that doesn't exist or they will release a product and, frankly, we're never going to be able to trust your word again.

History is full of people who have had some moral faults but then turned their life around. Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Kevin Mitnick, Georgia Durante, moonshine runner Junior Johnson, actor Danny Trejo, & Michael Vick. I'm not saying Sonny has had a "come-to-god" moment or anything, but one's history is often just that: history.

Specifically, you guys might want to look at the Wikipedia entry for: Frank William Abagnale.

I'd recommend keeping your criticisms to facts about BFL and their products and just leave it at that.

[niko]

@Raize: what specifically are you referring to when you say "imply something that doesn't exist"?

[Bitinvestor]

History is full of people who have had some moral faults but then turned their life around.

Yeah, right. People always see the light. Having Sonny Vleisides watching over ten million dollars is like hiring Charles Manson as a baby sitter when he gets released from prison. Good luck with that. 

[FLHippy]

History is full of people who have had some moral faults but then turned their life around. Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Kevin Mitnick, Georgia Durante, moonshine runner Junior Johnson, actor Danny Trejo, & Michael Vick. I'm not saying Sonny has had a "come-to-god" moment or anything, but one's history is often just that: history.

I'll give you partial credit for johnny cash and merle haggard. But only partial. Rock Stars (country music stars) are kinda allowed to do shit you and I would be put in jail for.

Holy crap you have michael vick on your list? Dirtbag to the Nth degree still. Kevin Mitnick? Small time! He hacked a few phone switches and stole some unix. And now he's simply found a way to monetize hacking.. Junior Johnson? Did you ever see the history channel show about him? "If I had to do it all over again today, I would".

People don't change.. they just are more careful the next time around. Or not.

[niko]

History is full of people who have had some moral faults but then turned their life around.

History is even fuller of people who have had some moral faults and never turned their life around.
It makes me wonder why you choose to ignore this fact.

Remain skeptical, sure, but don't cross into that point where you imply something that doesn't exist or they will release a product and, frankly, we're never going to be able to trust your word again.

Above you are saying that we should be able to trust a convicted scammer whose company now takes money upfront and lacks transparency, and at the same time we should never be able to trust someone who once "implies something that doesn't exist." This is another logical inconsistency in your post.

Again, I would like to know what specifically you are referring to in this thread when you say "implying something that doesn't exist"- the documents, the inconsistencies in statements, what?
 Ley's try and stay on topic. You've see the title and the OP, right? What do you think?

[Raoul Duke]

Phinn, instead of asking who Sonny K. is you should be asking who Nick W. is...

[crazy_rabbit]

This discusion has become a mean spirited lynch mob. If people don't even believe the London Conference took place, I doubt even the ASIC schematics would satisfy the rabid fear mongering here.

The mods should lock this thread. The concise summary of Evidence has been shared, and the BFL labs has responded. The rest of this thread is just an attempt to destroy consumer confidence in one of Bitcoin's most successful companies- a company that has proven itself to be a reliable hardware maker.

[aura.flux]

I doubt even the ASIC schematics would satisfy the rabid fear mongering here.

Clearly, you are a sock puppet.

[crazy_rabbit]

I doubt even the ASIC schematics would satisfy the rabid fear mongering here.

Clearly, you are a sock puppet.

For english speakers, this is called Hyperbole.
You should check out: http://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/figures-hyperbole.htm
They have some great learning tips like this and many more that I'm sure you could find helpful.

I see you're new here, so I'm glad I could help! :-)

[Raoul Duke]

I doubt even the ASIC schematics would satisfy the rabid fear mongering here.

Clearly, you are a sock puppetcrazy rabbit.

FTFY
Really? That was the best you could do? A sock puppet? This is getting ridiculous...
Also, it's more likely the sock puppet is you, aura.flux.

[guruvan]

With the common level of idiocy around this forum, I can't understand how Inaba is continuing to remain so polite to you morons. (I'm pretty sure the moroncy starts at the top around here, not much to be done about it, I'm afraid)

I am starting to wonder why any bitcoin related company would provide a presence on this trollpit - it's gotta be worse for business to announce on this forum, than to simply ignore bitcointalk.
 
Inaba, as stated above, you can't reason someone out of a position they've not reasoned themselves into.

[Otoh]

Okay, I have to ask about pic 2....anti-disease measures, some engineering/modding/don't breathe this stuff thing, or anonymity devices?

They were objecting to the ubiquitous CCTVs in London & I think also to facial recognition software that may run on them.