Re: Butterfly Labs CEO 25 Million USD Mail Fraud — A Concise Summary of Evidence

[tvbcof]

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?...

According to Inaba, people got refunded.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.msg1210787#msg1210787

Anyone who got refunds please post your experiences.

thanks

It would be relatively straightforward to have a handful of sock puppets come forward with comforting stories about how their refunds went.  Probably more meaningful would be to hear from people who either didn't get their refund, or had experiences one way or another in getting a charge-back from PayPal.

Of course BFL's competition could scare up a battalion of sock puppets to damage BFL also but this seems to me less likely, particularly if they are trying to leverage pre-order funding themselves or generally wish for calm weather in mining-gear-vendor-land.

Lastly, IFF this is a long con scam then there is some value in issuing trouble-free refunds at this juncture but it might be difficult to pre-judge how much to 'invest' along these lines in order to maximize the return.  Certainly the first requests have the best chance of being acted upon.

[the_thing]

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?...

According to Inaba, people got refunded.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.msg1210787#msg1210787

Anyone who got refunds please post your experiences.

thanks

It would be relatively straightforward to have a handful of sock puppets come forward with comforting stories about how their refunds went.  Probably more meaningful would be to hear from people who either didn't get their refund, or had experiences one way or another in getting a charge-back from PayPal.

Of course BFL's competition could scare up a battalion of sock puppets to damage BFL also but this seems to me less likely, particularly if they are trying to leverage pre-order funding themselves or generally wish for calm weather in mining-gear-vendor-land.

Lastly, IFF this is a long con scam then there is some value in issuing trouble-free refunds at this juncture but it might be difficult to pre-judge how much to 'invest' along these lines in order to maximize the return.  Certainly the first requests have the best chance of being acted upon.

Common sense in my BFL thread? I am amazed, sir!
This, yes, this.

[Desolator]

Btw if anyone had 1 early preorder that they're concerned about receiving but also worried about getting a refund for, you could always sell it to me Send me a PM!

[evanesce]

Received refund this morning. Good luck suckers lol

[The_Duke]

Received refund this morning. Good luck suckers lol

Transaction ID?

[greyhawk]

Received refund this morning. Good luck suckers lol

Transaction ID?

Cute. BFL does not deal in Bitcoins.

[Desolator]

Received refund this morning. Good luck suckers lol

Transaction ID?

Cute. BFL does not deal in Bitcoins.

They do pretend to though and isn't that what's really important? lol.  They claimed early pre-orders were going to be in BTC only in order to help support the network but in reality, they just used bitpay or whatever it's called lol.

[firefop]

Received refund this morning. Good luck suckers lol

Good Luck to you also sir...

...just don't expect anyone to care when you're whining about long your wait is after BFL ships before the end of year.

[The_Duke]

Received refund this morning. Good luck suckers lol

Transaction ID?

Cute. BFL does not deal in Bitcoins.

Makes sense, no sane company would at the moment.
But since there's no proof, I'll file that one away in the bogus-folder.

[reeses]

They do pretend to though and isn't that what's really important? lol.  They claimed early pre-orders were going to be in BTC only in order to help support the network but in reality, they just used bitpay or whatever it's called lol.

Yay for bit(-)pay.  Their processing is getting better and better, possibly funded by you, the buyers.

[Syke]

Electronic Frontier Foundation.  As for Sonny K, hopefully BFL_Sonny will address that when he posts.  As I understand it, he will be working on a response this weekend.

How's that response coming along? Can we expect to see it in 4-6 weeks?

[Shadow383]

Electronic Frontier Foundation.  As for Sonny K, hopefully BFL_Sonny will address that when he posts.  As I understand it, he will be working on a response this weekend.

How's that response coming along? Can we expect to see it in 4-6 weeks?

The response was supposed to be coming in october but it's been pushed back 

[creativex]

That was *NOT* a concise summary of evidence, but thanks OP, I was just about to trigger a pre-order and now don't feel comfortable.

Please don't tell me there's a thread like this about BTCFPGA/cablepair.

[KonstantinosM]

From the BFL website.

Can I get a refund on my pre-order?
Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.

         So the "products" may not ship until January 2013? Man, if they loan that money out on 3-6% loans that would be very profitable if they didn't have to invest in themselves. Now presuming they have to invest to themselves that company seems to be a very dangerous company to invest your money into. I suggest that you do not give them more than $1000 because that money will be locked into them for a loooong time. Simply investing in bitcoin and then buying from a competitor with bitcoin might be far more profitable. Of course I believe that mining shouldn't be for profit only... This applies to all of those ROI people. Off Topic Warning! If you have extra money to invest buy silver, 3 years down the road (that's about when your investment in silver would mature) you can make a good 30% extra from what you invested in buying physical silver. At that point you can either liquidate your assets and maybe get a house or car or boat or food or whatever really. Say you invest BTC10,000 Today, in 3 years you may have (and mind you I said may and not will) BTC13,000. 

        Now back on topic. It is up to you whether you can trust a team consisting of 22 people with one known scammer among them with your money. If you're looking with something with a good ROI you have to work with more responsive people than BFL. If you're looking for the next in mining gear and they deliver then this might be good for the Bitcoin Network.

        Something else you have to know about pre-ordering. Due to inflation, the money that you have given for your product, will not, in any condition be the same money if refunded 1-month later, that is excluding opportunity costs, with today's money, you could buy more of tomorrow's money. With all of those pre-orders you better hope that BFL doesn't use that money to speculate on the market or follow its own agenda to fund anything they like. 

[dani]

That was *NOT* a concise summary of evidence, but thanks OP, I was just about to trigger a pre-order and now don't feel comfortable.

Please don't tell me there's a thread like this about BTCFPGA/cablepair.

No, absolutely not. BTCPFGA/Cablepair/Tom i known to be transparent and successful with its products sold in the past. i suggest to preorder at btcfpga like i already did

[thebaron]

Not giving the opportunity for a refund to a customer when shipment has been delayed is against some FTC rule:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

[elux]

Not giving the opportunity for a refund to a customer when shipment has been delayed is against some FTC rule:

Quoted for the benefit of the lazy:

Selling on the Internet: Prompt Delivery Rules

[...]

By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time. If your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer.

Finally, you have the right to cancel orders that you can't fill in a timely manner, but you must promptly notify the customer of your decision and make a prompt refund.

[...]

[BitcoinINV]

Think I will add this information to what my attorney general has already got..... He did refund my money but it was only cause I got the Gov involved.

This is what has happend, BFL sold pre-orders to fund the building of asics. They had zero to no work done on them till pre-orders came in and funded them. If people wanted to do that they could have just invested with the person who said he was going to do that on the GLSBE. You will get you ASIC, but BFL is a shady company with very very shady practices. The way they went about this was all wrong and I suspect some what illegal, maybe someone should look into it.
 
This is just what I have gathered from it so far, just step back and look at the situation...
If I am wrong BFL please post figures to show what money did what. My guess is pre-order money built your line of ASIC's 85% of the way, and without pre-orders you would still be making FPGA's all day.

[Inaba]

No, absolutely not. BTCPFGA/Cablepair/Tom i known to be transparent and successful with its products sold in the past. i suggest to preorder at btcfpga like i already did

Transparent huh?  Why don't you ask him about his power usage.  See how transparent he is.

Think I will add this information to what my attorney general has already got..... He did refund my money but it was only cause I got the Gov involved.

This is what has happend, BFL sold pre-orders to fund the building of asics. They had zero to no work done on them till pre-orders came in and funded them. If people wanted to do that they could have just invested with the person who said he was going to do that on the GLSBE. You will get you ASIC, but BFL is a shady company with very very shady practices. The way they went about this was all wrong and I suspect some what illegal, maybe someone should look into it.
 
This is just what I have gathered from it so far, just step back and look at the situation...
If I am wrong BFL please post figures to show what money did what. My guess is pre-order money built your line of ASIC's 85% of the way, and without pre-orders you would still be making FPGA's all day.

You, sir, are a LI-AHHH!  Please provide proof you requested a refund prior to contacting the AG... oh you can't, because you never did, otherwise we would have refunded you.  We've never refused a refund to anyone who's asked for it.  

You are also lying about BFL selling pre-orders to fund the building of ASICs.  BFL is only shady when you make up stories about things that didn't happen.  But then again, any company can be shady when you don't have to use the truth in your description.  Good job though on your fabrication, I'm sure someone, somewhere might believe you.

[niko]

To sum it all up, this is how I see it:

• BFL refuses to answer customers' concerns (the "town hall" thread)
• their owner/executive was convicted of serious crime involving scams, and is now collecting funds in violation of his parole
• they are illegally collecting investments for the development of a product under the pretense of "pre-orders"
• that same BFL has delivered FPGAs before
• people now have several other competitors to choose from
• BFL has hired an incompetent person as a representative, who acts unprofessionally, offends customers in public, derails threads, and generally does damage to the company's PR

I will not be ordering from BFL, but I can see how some people would. Everyone should just decide and shut up. Everything has already been said.