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Author Topic: Nefario  (Read 198366 times)
dreamwatcher
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October 06, 2012, 12:22:14 PM
 #201



can somebody translate this to English?  I wasn't aware that gibberish was an actual dialect.

That's googletranslatorish.




You just made me LOL for real. The term "googletranslatorish" my have been around, but this was the first time I have seen it.

You put a smile on my face on what was starting to look like a crappy day (nothing related to GLBSE).  Smiley

Firefox spell check wants to correct "googletranslatorish" to mistranslation  Cheesy
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October 06, 2012, 12:27:25 PM
 #202

Theymos,

So if you want to remain anonymous, you go penniless?


Yes. It's a terrible betrayal.

The exact same thing happened with MtGox users, a while ago. Before MtGox had their ToS in place, they would hold your money ransom and force you to identify yourself to get it back. Nobody had been formally prevented of this. Some people honestly believed they could operate anonymously, as there was nothing saying they could not, and all of he sudden, "a terrible betrayal".
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.

If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.

Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.

Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).



+1

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October 06, 2012, 12:29:19 PM
 #203

I will just chime in here to join the chorus of those who are glad not to have had any dealings with GLBSE.  Listing Bitcoin Island on such a vulnerable securities exchange would have been a huge mistake.

Hopefully this episode will convince some of you to work towards investing in more real assets, real local economies, and real freedom from unwanted regulators, rather than any more shady anonymous "securities" and ponzi schemes.

If not, I'm afraid before too long Atlas may be the only one around here with both the foresight to recognize when the emperor is wearing no clothes, and the balls to actually point it out.

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October 06, 2012, 12:39:27 PM
 #204

I don't know if Nefario really deserves a scammer tag. After seeing the talk it was crystal clear it wasn't an operation that knew what it was doing. That's perhaps the trouble of many of bitcoins enterprises, they are run by people who are more excited then they are knowledgable. Being Naieve isn't a scam, it's just kinda stupid (on the part of the scammie as well).

That said, Theymos makes a good point about having the feeling Nefario might be being squeezed by the government in some sort of plea deal in exchange for turning over records. Who knows how deep the Pirate nonsense has gotten.

I'd be more concerned for the people who have money in GLBSE, not about how much they might have lost, but rather what they might legally be on the hook for.

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October 06, 2012, 12:40:37 PM
 #205

The exact same thing happened with MtGox users, a while ago. Before MtGox had their ToS in place, they would hold your money ransom and force you to identify yourself to get it back. Nobody had been formally prevented of this. Some people honestly believed they could operate anonymously, as there was nothing saying they could not, and all of he sudden, "a terrible betrayal".
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.

If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.

Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.

Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).

I agree.

Also, I'd like to point out - if we do see a prosecution/regulation/whatever you want to call if for the operation. That's a huge step toward making btc legit as a currency.

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October 06, 2012, 01:07:59 PM
 #206

You should probably all be aware that Nefario is already planning on creating a legal, regulated Bitcoin stock exchange service (of some sort) once this blows over.
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October 06, 2012, 01:13:24 PM
 #207

I'd be more concerned for the people who have money in GLBSE, not about how much they might have lost, but rather what they might legally be on the hook for.

Well, I'm not a lawyer but here's how I see it:

The asset issuers obtained money from the sale of securities on an illegal exchange.
The asset buyers are the victims.

Those who cause problems for others also cause problems for themselves.
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October 06, 2012, 01:15:37 PM
 #208

You should probably all be aware that Nefario is already planning on creating a legal, regulated Bitcoin stock exchange service (of some sort) once this blows over.

I don't mean to be a hater, but I think that's going to be a pretty hard road to go down. Stock exchanges are complicated financial services, perhaps best left to professionals, no?

Another interesting thing from the conference though was talk about the Bitcoin Scripting which could allow for exchanges to operate without any 3rd party. Companies could run the process themselves, or someone could develop software allowing people to run an exchange themselves.  

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October 06, 2012, 01:17:31 PM
 #209

GLBSE should have been a black market operation, no offense. The fact that the founder is known and visible and that the exchange is centralized is a big red flag.

Agreed. I always argued that GLBSE should be an unregulated platform for trades.

Good point. There was no way for the way GLBSE was run for it to operate in the public. That said, Bitcoin would benefit from a public regulated exchange, and then people can run black market ops through whatever other service they please.

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October 06, 2012, 01:20:03 PM
 #210

You should probably all be aware that Nefario is already planning on creating a legal, regulated Bitcoin stock exchange service (of some sort) once this blows over.

I don't mean to be a hater, but I think that's going to be a pretty hard road to go down. Stock exchanges are complicated financial services, perhaps best left to professionals, no?

Another interesting thing from the conference though was talk about the Bitcoin Scripting which could allow for exchanges to operate without any 3rd party. Companies could run the process themselves, or someone could develop software allowing people to run an exchange themselves. 

Thats what I was thinking, kinda like trading ecrypted certificates. Make a place where you can post the sale of these certificates and then leave paying dividends to the issuer. Make some kind of rating system, where people who have bought sold like silk road can rate the sellers and the product.

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October 06, 2012, 01:30:03 PM
 #211

Hm, checked reddit.com/r/bitcoin today, and I saw: Yet another scam/failure/mishap/fraud.

What words could cover this ? I first checked my mind, then my dictionary, then I went out in the street and screamed.

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October 06, 2012, 01:32:07 PM
 #212

The closing of GLBSE is a big kick to the bitcoin economy and also to the image that bitcoin is giving to the rest of the world.

Lately, lots of problem have ocurred in the bitcoin economy the thing with pirate, bitcoinica and now this.
As a person that believes that bitcoins have a big potential, I'm extremely afraid of this. Each of these events (closing of GLBSE, BS&T, etc.)
makes the bitcoin economy closer to the cliff. Maybe the next big fail in the bitcoin world could push it down the cliff and then it's all lost.

And why?
Because mediocre people are put in front of important points of the bitcoin economy. And that's what happened to Nefario in my opinion.

These closing I think are just a natural process of the 'cleaning up' of the economy. In the beginning it's not surprising to see 'mediocre' people seeing an opportunity that isn't afforded to them in other sectors. Gradually more and more talented people will see opportunity here and will join the project.

This is why I support the foundation- we need some organizational group that at least is honestly smart and knows how these things work. It's not perfect and we certainly need more then one, but it's the start of a new chapter that is long over due.

You are correct: Shit fails, that's how a free market economy works (as opposed to what the (western) world is currenctly in the business of "running"). You got that right with the 'cleaning up' of the economy. It's sad about the glbse, but something obviously wasn't done right and now there's a void to be filled by competition.

I do not agree with your sentiment that an organizational group like the Bitcoin Foundation is needed to somehow "regulate, control" or do whatever fiddling you have in my mind with our free market. Are you suggesting the Bitcoin Foundation should run a stock exchange? I hope not.

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October 06, 2012, 01:34:48 PM
 #213

The closing of GLBSE is a big kick to the bitcoin economy and also to the image that bitcoin is giving to the rest of the world.

Lately, lots of problem have ocurred in the bitcoin economy the thing with pirate, bitcoinica and now this.
As a person that believes that bitcoins have a big potential, I'm extremely afraid of this. Each of these events (closing of GLBSE, BS&T, etc.)
makes the bitcoin economy closer to the cliff. Maybe the next big fail in the bitcoin world could push it down the cliff and then it's all lost.

And why?
Because mediocre people are put in front of important points of the bitcoin economy. And that's what happened to Nefario in my opinion.

These closing I think are just a natural process of the 'cleaning up' of the economy. In the beginning it's not surprising to see 'mediocre' people seeing an opportunity that isn't afforded to them in other sectors. Gradually more and more talented people will see opportunity here and will join the project.

This is why I support the foundation- we need some organizational group that at least is honestly smart and knows how these things work. It's not perfect and we certainly need more then one, but it's the start of a new chapter that is long over due.

You are correct: Shit fails, that's how a free market economy works (as opposed to what the (western) world is currenctly in the business of "running"). You got that right with the 'cleaning up' of the economy. It's sad about the glbse, but something obviously wasn't done right and now there's a void to be filled by competition.

I do not agree with your sentiment that an organizational group like the Bitcoin Foundation is needed to somehow "regulate, control" or do whatever fiddling you have in my mind with our free market. Are you suggesting the Bitcoin Foundation should run a stock exchange? I hope not.


no, no, I don't think this particular foundation should do anything other then work on the protocol, try to follow Satoshi's vision and perhaps be the public 'smart' face of Bitcoin.

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October 06, 2012, 01:35:23 PM
 #214

no, no, I don't think this particular foundation should do anything other then work on the protocol, try to follow Satoshi's vision and perhaps be the public 'smart' face of Bitcoin.

ah, good Wink

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October 06, 2012, 01:45:19 PM
 #215

Theymos,

So if you want to remain anonymous, you go penniless?


Yes. It's a terrible betrayal.

The exact same thing happened with MtGox users, a while ago. Before MtGox had their ToS in place, they would hold your money ransom and force you to identify yourself to get it back. Nobody had been formally prevented of this. Some people honestly believed they could operate anonymously, as there was nothing saying they could not, and all of he sudden, "a terrible betrayal".
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.

If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.

Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.

Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).



+1





This happened via privmsg. Somebody accidentally messaged me / I had never talked to them directly and didn't recognize them from any threads I was on...

Quote from: ___nameremoved___
Omg...

I just read..


GLBSE.. WTF!!!!!! HuhHuh?

Dammit, Im getting sick of this scam stuff...   how the hell could he do this ?


How are you making out?  is he being reasonable with you ?

This is horrible, beyond horrible... Sad

Hmm? who scammed me?

All I know for certain is that GLBSE is unavailable, theymos is pissed at nefario as a result (level of communication, etc.)

... and there is probably some degree of "lawyering up" going on.

The only companies I have shares which were traded on GLBSE the owners / operators are pretty cool

some will even allow you to hold your shares outside of GLBSE, still get dividends, etc. so all is not lost.

What is it they say / suggest about never investing more than you can afford to lose?

I'm personally not "dead in the water" as a result of (temporarily?) being unable to manage any assets via GLBSE. I have not been "scammed" as far as I'm aware.


Edited to add:

That conversation took place before GLBSE updated the single-page "website" with the breif emergency FAQ explaining they were actually shutting down, and that they would try to facilitate the process of:

asset holder <----> security issuer ( the communication thinger )
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October 06, 2012, 02:44:15 PM
 #216

I don't think much about turning my BTC or LTC back into fiat.

I know services should be offering this and should be trustworthy, but my operational mindset is that I can protect my BTC/LTC when it's in my possession. My HOPES are that one day they will be super valuable and I can use them for purchasing things without going the Fiat route. 



Theymos,

So if you want to remain anonymous, you go penniless?


Yes. It's a terrible betrayal.

The exact same thing happened with MtGox users, a while ago. Before MtGox had their ToS in place, they would hold your money ransom and force you to identify yourself to get it back. Nobody had been formally prevented of this. Some people honestly believed they could operate anonymously, as there was nothing saying they could not, and all of he sudden, "a terrible betrayal".
I've protested many times in the occasion, saying MtGox should at least give these people the chance of leaving with their money, if they did not agree to the new terms. There are many threads in this forum on this subject.

If MtGox didn't get a scammer tag due to that - what may be considered reasonable, since maybe they were being forced to act like that - giving a scammer tag to Nefario for the same kind of actions would be a double standard.

Plus, about violating GLBSE bylaws, Nefario is no longer liable for such break of contract if he's doing so under the threat of violence. The criminal wouldn't be him, but the person/group who's forcing him to act criminally - in the case, the state, as usual.

Theymos, I understand you're pissed off by him. He made a series of bad decisions. But if this whole mess was initiated by the state, Nefario is a victim as everybody else. Try your best to be an impartial and fair judge. I honestly have the feeling Nefario is not a scammer, at least not willingly so (of course I may be wrong).



+1





This happened via privmsg. Somebody accidentally messaged me / I had never talked to them directly and didn't recognize them from any threads I was on...

Quote from: ___nameremoved___
Omg...

I just read..


GLBSE.. WTF!!!!!! HuhHuh?

Dammit, Im getting sick of this scam stuff...   how the hell could he do this ?


How are you making out?  is he being reasonable with you ?

This is horrible, beyond horrible... Sad

Hmm? who scammed me?

All I know for certain is that GLBSE is unavailable, theymos is pissed at nefario as a result (level of communication, etc.)

... and there is probably some degree of "lawyering up" going on.

The only companies I have shares which were traded on GLBSE the owners / operators are pretty cool

some will even allow you to hold your shares outside of GLBSE, still get dividends, etc. so all is not lost.

What is it they say / suggest about never investing more than you can afford to lose?

I'm personally not "dead in the water" as a result of (temporarily?) being unable to manage any assets via GLBSE. I have not been "scammed" as far as I'm aware.


Edited to add:

That conversation took place before GLBSE updated the single-page "website" with the breif emergency FAQ explaining they were actually shutting down, and that they would try to facilitate the process of:

asset holder <----> security issuer ( the communication thinger )

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October 06, 2012, 02:50:21 PM
 #217

I'd be more concerned for the people who have money in GLBSE, not about how much they might have lost, but rather what they might legally be on the hook for.

Well, I'm not a lawyer but here's how I see it:

The asset issuers obtained money from the sale of securities on an illegal exchange.
The asset buyers are the victims.

Well, let me guess: you happen to be a buyer, not an issuer.

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October 06, 2012, 02:56:56 PM
 #218

I'd be more concerned for the people who have money in GLBSE, not about how much they might have lost, but rather what they might legally be on the hook for.

Well, I'm not a lawyer but here's how I see it:

The asset issuers obtained money from the sale of securities on an illegal exchange.
The asset buyers are the victims.

Well, let me guess: you happen to be a buyer, not an issuer.

Correct  Grin

Edit: Looks like I'm right:

For US persons and companies, raising money on GLBSE is a felony under the Securities Act of 1934. To create a publicly traded investment, you have to register with the Securities and Exchange Commission first, and file forms like SEC Form 1-A.

This form starts with:

ITEM 1.
Significant Parties
List the full names and business and residential addresses, as applicable, for the following persons:
(a) the issuer’s directors;
(b) the issuer’s officers;
(c) the issuer’s general partners;
(d) record owners of 5 percent or more of any class of the issuer’s equity securities;
(e) beneficial owners of 5 percent or more of any class of the issuer’s equity securities;
(f) promoters of the issuer;
(g) affiliates of the issuer;
(h) counsel to the issuer with respect to the proposed offering;
(i) each underwriter with respect to the proposed offering;
(j) the underwriter’s directors;
(k) the underwriter’s officers;
(l) the underwriter’s general partners; and
(m) counsel to the underwriter.


You don't get to issue securities anonymously in the US. The usual penalty is 5 years in prison.

Here's a typical FBI report of a conviction for selling unregistered securities.. One of those people gets out of the Federal pen in 2015.

Operating entirely on line won't help. An online unregistered securities operator who ran AdSurfDaily is was arrested and is facing felony criminal charges. If you're wondering what the legal definition of a "security" is, see this court decision against the operator of AdSurfDaily. The terms for AdSurfDaily sound a lot like the ones for many GBLSE investments. Here's what AdSurfDaily advertised:

   Rebate Distribution: Ad purchase sales and banner ad sales on the Cash Generator and the sale of ebooks will be totaled at midnight each night and 50% of the gross sales will be rebated to add purchasers. Fifty percent of the commissions that the Cash Generator earns from their sister site, “Attract Marketing System,” will also be paid as rebates to ad purchasers on the Cash Generator.

Every night at midnight the number of eligible ad packages will be totaled and divided into the total ad package sales, banner ad sales and ebook sales to determine the amount of the rebate for each ad package. That amount will be multiplied by the number of ad packages in each advertiser’s account and the total will be credited to his/her cash balance account. Rebates will show up in your account after midnight EST.


Sounds like a lot of GBLSE offerings, doesn't it? That was held to be an "investment contract" requiring SEC registration in UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v.THOMAS ANDERSON BOWDOIN, JR., Defendant, Criminal Action No. 10-320 (RMC), United States District Court, District of Columbia, March 18, 2011. Mr. Bowdoin is looking at 125 years in prison, max.


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October 06, 2012, 02:58:09 PM
 #219

These closing I think are just a natural process of the 'cleaning up' of the economy.

There is not an infinite supply of fools endowed with BTC. I don't expect anyone would touch a shady BTC "securities" exchange with a ten foot pole from now on. Unless a foolproof, user friendly system comes out (which I cannot even imagine), a big chunk of the BTC economy is  now dead.
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October 06, 2012, 03:06:12 PM
 #220

When were you planning on disclosing this aspect of your role in relation to the sale of your stake in GLBSE?

I mentioned it briefly in my sale thread. And I've mentioned it before in other places.

Theymos, as treasurer, shouldn't you be the one to disperse the funds to their rightful owners?  Why would you be sending the funds to Nefario in the first place, even if you had no knowledge of his treachery?

I don't have the user database.

Nefario has defrauded me and others in several different ways and deserves a scammer tag.

- He has stated that he would ignore any motion to remove him as CEO.

One thing I constantly warn people about is self-censorship. If you think it is a good thing to remove Nefario as CEO, then put up a motion, and let him ignore it and take responsibility for this. By not putting up a motion because "he would ignore it", you are simply letting him go on as CEO.

Please do not censor yourself, and do what you think is right for GLBSE regardless of what you think Nefario might do then. That could protect you in the future.

(disclaimer: I don't have any coin or share on GLBSE)

Theymos, please read this post. I also urge you not to give any BTC to Nefario. Thanks.

I tried to remove him as CEO, but there wasn't enough shareholder support. 5-6 people supported removing him against three (including Nefario) who didn't, but our side didn't have enough shares for a motion. Three large shareholders weren't at the meeting, so it was difficult to get the 51% required.

Later on in the meeting, Nefario somehow managed to convince 1-2 of the people who had supported removing Nefario, which is how he was able to pass a motion to order me to give him the treasury funds. So I doubt a motion to remove Nefario is possible now even if the absent shareholders voted.

It doesn't matter anyway, since Nefario said that he would ignore the shareholders and shut down GLBSE. And shutting down GLBSE is against the bylaws, so he needs a 66% vote. He didn't even pursue a 50% vote.

What would I do with the money if I kept it? I don't have the user database.

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