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Author Topic: Nefario  (Read 198244 times)
JoelKatz
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October 11, 2012, 07:58:31 AM
Last edit: October 11, 2012, 08:09:09 AM by JoelKatz
 #941

As long as those assets remain delisted, I suspect that Goat is stuck having to manually work out the claim codes.
I honestly don't see any reason Goat should mitigate the damage GLBSE did to their own customers at his risk with no cooperation from GLBSE. If I were Goat, I wouldn't do it. If there's some argument that he ever agreed to assume this risk, I haven't seen it. Were I Goat, I would be willing to work to negotiate a sane way to do it in good faith with GLBSE, assuming Nefario no longer had control over GLBSE. (Expecting Nefario to negotiate with Goat in good faith seems comically doomed to fail.) But that's as far as I would go.

Were I Goat, I might be willing to pay fair market value to the asset owners, were there some sane way I could do it. But recognize that because of the GLBSE delisting, the fair market value of those assets is very, very low because they are untradeable. From what we know, it seems Nefario, either intentionally or with gross negligence, totally destroyed the value of those assets -- harming only his customers. There is practically no value left to save.

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LazyOtto
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October 11, 2012, 08:13:16 AM
 #942

Nefario destroyed the value of those assets. That's just a fact. There is no practically no value left to save.
Except for those assets which have an intrinsic value. Which, until they pay off, is in the eye/judgement of the (be)holder. (And dependent on the integrity of the issuer.)

Not everyone buys to flip. Some of us have bought stuff to own.
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October 11, 2012, 08:18:16 AM
 #943

Whoever knows Nefario's personal information needs to reveal it. Now.
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October 11, 2012, 08:22:50 AM
 #944

Whoever knows Nefario's personal information needs to reveal it. Now.

Thats not a good idea for several reasons I wont go into. Besides his name and dox are easily available.


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October 11, 2012, 08:24:38 AM
 #945

Nefario destroyed the value of those assets. That's just a fact. There is no practically no value left to save.
Except for those assets which have an intrinsic value. Which, until they pay off, is in the eye/judgement of the (be)holder. (And dependent on the integrity of the issuer.)

Not everyone buys to flip. Some of us have bought stuff to own.
The reason you bought something has no effect on its fair market value. All of the delisted assets are nearly worthless now. If you don't think so, try to sell one of them and tell me what you get for it. GLBSE's unilateral action, for which we have as yet heard no justification, destroyed that value.

The assets are nearly worthless now. Every asset owner has taken a huge loss as a result of GLBSE's actions.

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October 11, 2012, 08:28:05 AM
 #946

Nefario destroyed the value of those assets. That's just a fact. There is no practically no value left to save.
Except for those assets which have an intrinsic value. Which, until they pay off, is in the eye/judgement of the (be)holder. (And dependent on the integrity of the issuer.)

Not everyone buys to flip. Some of us have bought stuff to own.
The reason you bought something has no effect on its fair market value. All of the delisted assets are nearly worthless now. If you don't think so, try to sell one of them and tell me what you get for it. GLBSE's unilateral action, for which we have as yet heard no justification, destroyed that value.

Might even have no affect.
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October 11, 2012, 08:30:37 AM
 #947

Nefario destroyed the value of those assets. That's just a fact. There is no practically no value left to save.
Except for those assets which have an intrinsic value. Which, until they pay off, is in the eye/judgement of the (be)holder. (And dependent on the integrity of the issuer.)

Not everyone buys to flip. Some of us have bought stuff to own.
The reason you bought something has no effect on its fair market value. All of the delisted assets are nearly worthless now. If you don't think so, try to sell one of them and tell me what you get for it. GLBSE's unilateral action, for which we have as yet heard no justification, destroyed that value.


Thats a difficult one. I know MOORE is backed by friedcat and hes promised to redeem them at issue price. Lots of people bought for the future dividend income of some shares.

It will get hard when asset issuers shoot through using glbse closing as an excuse to do so. Its hard to know what the actual value of the shares is now because they currently aren't being traded. We will see once they migrate to new platforms I guess.

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October 11, 2012, 08:32:43 AM
 #948

The reason you bought something has no effect on its fair market value. All of the delisted assets are nearly worthless now. If you don't think so, try to sell one of them and tell me what you get for it. GLBSE's unilateral action, for which we have as yet heard no justification, destroyed that value.

Might even have no affect.
Unless it pretends to have feelings.

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October 11, 2012, 08:36:53 AM
 #949

We will see once they migrate to new platforms I guess.
Just understand that if that happens, the assets will gain back value they have currently lost. That won't undo the loss because the set of people who benefit from the gain are not necessarily the same as the set of people harmed by the loss.

If a stock drops in value by $10 one day and then goes back up $10 the next day, it's not "no harm no foul". The benefits from the gain do not undo the harm of the loss. For one thing, the opportunity cost of being able to trade the asset is lost every day one cannot trade it in any way. And the time value of dividends is being lost. And some people might sell their rights to claim their assets to others at a steep discount because they need money know.

The harm Nefario did by delisting Goat's assets and GBLSE did by shutting down is done. Barring some kind of compensation to victims from Nefario or GLBSE, the asset owners will suffer losses no matter what they or the issuers do.

There are three takeaway lessons from this:

1) Asset contracts must specify precisely what will happen in the event of a delisting.

2) Stock exchanges like GLBSE must insist any assets they trade have a delisting policy in the contract.

3) Stock exchanges like GLBSE must themselves have a delisting policy explaining precisely what they will and won't do if an asset is delisted.

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October 11, 2012, 08:39:22 AM
 #950

Unless it pretends to have feelings.
We might be getting a bit off topic.

"the atrocities he witnessed have affected him most deeply."

However, isn't that a substantial under-current in this thread. Smiley
JoelKatz
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October 11, 2012, 08:40:36 AM
 #951

Unless it pretends to have feelings.
We might be getting a bit off topic.

"the atrocities he witnessed have affected him most deeply."

However, isn't that a substantial under-current in this thread. Smiley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_%28psychology%29

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October 11, 2012, 08:41:13 AM
 #952

affect 1 |əˈfekt|
verb [ with obj. ]
have an effect on; make a difference to: the dampness began to affect my health | [ with clause ] : your attitude will affect how successful you are.
• touch the feelings of (someone); move emotionally: the atrocities he witnessed have affected him most deeply.
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October 11, 2012, 08:45:54 AM
 #953

affect 1 |əˈfekt|
verb [ with obj. ]
have an effect on; make a difference to: the dampness began to affect my health | [ with clause ] : your attitude will affect how successful you are.
• touch the feelings of (someone); move emotionally: the atrocities he witnessed have affected him most deeply.

Read this again. The part where it says something about a verb.

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October 11, 2012, 09:00:10 AM
 #954

Read this again. The part where it says something about a verb.
Went back and read the post where this started.

Yes. I agree with you. With both of you. Thank you.

Nothing more from me on this digression. (Which was my fault.)
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October 11, 2012, 11:18:51 AM
 #955

The reason you bought something has no effect on its fair market value. All of the delisted assets are nearly worthless now. If you don't think so, try to sell one of them and tell me what you get for it. GLBSE's unilateral action, for which we have as yet heard no justification, destroyed that value.

The assets are nearly worthless now. Every asset owner has taken a huge loss as a result of GLBSE's actions.

I think you see it too black. See asicminer shares. The price was at glbse 0.11btc per share. I got all my 1255 shares for a price of 0.1 even. But i dont think that many would sell me more shares for 0.09btc or so. Because one simple reason. The price is what people think a share is worth. So only when you think your shares are worthless now and you sell it worthless the price drops.

Another thing maybe it is for products that arent backed. But miningprojects or any other serious thing is backed. And you bought the shares because the dividends.

The dividends arent lost too. At least when the issuers are honest. So there wouldnt be a price loss too only because of the closure of glbse.

So any shares you bought, that have honest issuers and a substantially businessmodell with dividends, you bought because they were it worth to you. When the business still runs and the dividends are collected then the worth isnt automatically dropping. Only when you chicking out and sell low. But then others are happy. Because the ROI will be higher taking the dividend in advance.

I only say that closing a stock exchange isnt making all stockprices down. If the shares werent overpriced they still hold the same value than before.

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October 11, 2012, 12:38:05 PM
 #956

Another thing maybe it is for products that arent backed. But miningprojects or any other serious thing is backed. And you bought the shares because the dividends.

The dividends arent lost too. At least when the issuers are honest. So there wouldnt be a price loss too only because of the closure of glbse.
You are right. I am probably being too pessimistic. There is no doubt there is some loss of value because the future redemption of the assets is uncertain and the lack of a way to trade has harmed the market. But for some assets, it may not be anywhere near sufficient to make them "nearly worthless".

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October 11, 2012, 01:29:15 PM
 #957

Did anybody receive any bitcoin from GBLSE? I didn't receive anything yet...
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October 11, 2012, 01:32:56 PM
 #958

Nothing on the way from this address: https://blockchain.info/address/18bEUAuzWg97swzHXzK4prGGYSBAMCUgz and to my address there isnt anything on the way till now too.
So the didnt start yet paying back.

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October 11, 2012, 01:52:42 PM
 #959

nothing received yet.
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October 11, 2012, 01:57:02 PM
 #960

nothing received yet.

Not to worry, Santa Claus just initiated the transfer to the Easter Bunny's account for full release sometime after Tuesday 2015.
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