Nefario

[Smoovious]

All users coins on the GLBSE is safe and untouched.  Nafario wants to return them as soon as possible as they are a legal liability to him.  He also said he will soon have a way for asset issuers to pay dividends but not trade shares.

What, exactly, is stopping him from simply sending them all back to the accounts from whence they came?

that they may not have come from a wallet/address controllable by the account holder...

like the BTC I sent in from MtGox, Vircurex, Cryptostocks, etc... if GLBSE did what you suggest, all of my coin would  be sent back to those sites' sending addresses, which wouldn't get credited to my accounts.

-- Smoov

[legolouman]

Since GLBSE is in UK and doesn't deal with fiat currency, but they decided they would pay taxes. So technically they made themselves illegal but (sic) doing that, plus nefario was talking about how he wants to go legit and that would require lawyers and stuff like that. They basically shot themselves in the foot.

This is a theory that I've been mulling over for a while.  Bitcoinica self-destructed after it moved to London as well.  Derivative trading is completely unregulated in London.  It is entirely possible that someone is quietly buying out key Bitcoin businesses, and basically paying for them to fail.  Nothing prohibits it.  I'm sure there are those with enough money, and enough interest in seeing Bitcoin harmed, to pay off all those involved.  From the outside, all we see is "blah blah hacking terrorism money laundering investigation blah blah shutting down".  While, behind the scenes, there is a lot that could be going on.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to take a chance at getting rich, move to London and start a Bitcoin stock exchange.

Can't you just host the exchange and maintain a business entity in London? You don't physically have to be there.

[Aahz]

http://www.sec.gov/about/laws/sa33.pdf

Non-lawyer here, but as Bitcoin has no legal definition, I'm not sure how any of this applies.

SEC. 2. (a) DEFINITIONS.—When used in this title, unless the
context otherwise requires—
(1) The term ‘‘security’’ means any note, stock, treasury
stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture,
evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation
in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate,
preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share,
investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit
for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or
other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege
on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities
(including any interest therein or based on the value
thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered
into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency,
or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly
known as a ‘‘security’’, or any certificate of interest or participation
in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee
of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any
of the foregoing.

The law you cited has nothing to do with what the value of the security is denominated in.  Notice the lack of the word "dollar" in the definition of "security"?  Are you going to say that means the law doesn't apply to Wall Street either?

[Aahz]

All users coins on the GLBSE is safe and untouched.  Nafario wants to return them as soon as possible as they are a legal liability to him.  He also said he will soon have a way for asset issuers to pay dividends but not trade shares.

What, exactly, is stopping him from simply sending them all back to the accounts from whence they came?

I think he will need full legal ID to pay back coins and shares.  Otherwise he risks being charged with possible money laundering and/or funding terrorism.  Tho he won't disclose that information unless requested by the government/police.

Sorry, that doesn't hold water.  He didn't get any ID to get the money in, so the ID means nothing now.  What's he going to compare it to?

The only way to have any faith it's being returned to the depositors is to return it to the same address.

that they may not have come from a wallet/address controllable by the account holder...

like the BTC I sent in from MtGox, Vircurex, Cryptostocks, etc... if GLBSE did what you suggest, all of my coin would  be sent back to those sites' sending addresses, which wouldn't get credited to my accounts.

Now, THAT I could see as a problem.  Is there any way to tell if a payment comes from a person or a 3rd party?  If so, he could still "reverse" the direct payments.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

Yeah he said ******* has been trying to take control of the GLBSE since before the shutdown (I forget how long for he said maybe a week or two before).  He also said GLBSE will never be returning.  He did say he's working on a way for assets to be able to issue dividends very soon but not for shares to be traded.  He talked about a GLBSE alternative for companies that pay full taxes and follow all regulations.  He also said he would help me move my asset RSM to Cryptostocks if I wanted.  Also that he has a very generous offer of an interested party in buying the source-code.  Plus I heard LTC-Global is selling there source-code.  So lots of alternatives popping up soon.

Thank you for sharing this.
The part of somebody wanting to buy the source code is interesting. The offer was done (or stands until) after this debacle? If that's the case, it might mean somebody is willing to make a GLBSE clone in the darknet...

[matthewh3]

All users coins on the GLBSE is safe and untouched.  Nafario wants to return them as soon as possible as they are a legal liability to him.  He also said he will soon have a way for asset issuers to pay dividends but not trade shares.

What, exactly, is stopping him from simply sending them all back to the accounts from whence they came?

I think he will need full legal ID to pay back coins and shares.  Otherwise he risks being charged with possible money laundering and/or funding terrorism.  Tho he won't disclose that information unless requested by the government/police.

Sorry, that doesn't hold water.  He didn't get any ID to get the money in, so the ID means nothing now.  What's he going to compare it to?

The only way to have any faith it's being returned to the depositors is to return it to the same address.

that they may not have come from a wallet/address controllable by the account holder...

like the BTC I sent in from MtGox, Vircurex, Cryptostocks, etc... if GLBSE did what you suggest, all of my coin would  be sent back to those sites' sending addresses, which wouldn't get credited to my accounts.

Now, THAT I could see as a problem.  Is there any way to tell if a payment comes from a person or a 3rd party?  If so, he could still "reverse" the direct payments.

Maybe not to you but I think that's what Nafario's lawyer has told him is his get out of jail card for possible criminal charges.  This is not about stealing coins.  The GLBSE was where Nafario made his living and he didn't shut it down for the sake of shooting himself in the foot to steal coins.  As I stated he's working on a withdrawal process to comply with AML rules and will soon have a way for asset issuers to pay dividends but not trade shares.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

I for one have a lot of sympathy toward Nefario, there have been missteps but what he (and other shareholders) were trying to accomplish was out of this world.

And he deserves some support from the community.

+1

[Bogart]

All users coins on the GLBSE is safe and untouched.  Nafario wants to return them as soon as possible as they are a legal liability to him.  He also said he will soon have a way for asset issuers to pay dividends but not trade shares.

What, exactly, is stopping him from simply sending them all back to the accounts from whence they came?

that they may not have come from a wallet/address controllable by the account holder...

like the BTC I sent in from MtGox, Vircurex, Cryptostocks, etc... if GLBSE did what you suggest, all of my coin would  be sent back to those sites' sending addresses, which wouldn't get credited to my accounts.

-- Smoov

Mine did.

http://blockchain.info/tx/04cc18c0bdfc4ae2c002c6043d910fee6891f38f093bca5269205095de3413c4 <-- Mined
http://blockchain.info/tx/7fc3f24429536fb0b86e08cedfecb97d2f32ac1e4c258b5b357e0fe1a5b70827 <-- Deposited to GLBSE
http://blockchain.info/tx/b590b847b35f6c37dc73d13a0bb704599909f3ceaf4fd41ee224cc1ccd39c2a3 <-- Rolled into GLBSE "cold wallet", I think.

GLBSE, please send them back to 1Ke82xheXCsKGfd3uwtZ2WrZ7QztCUUii3 right meow.

[k3t3r]

I think he will need full legal ID to pay back coins and shares.  Otherwise he risks being charged with possible money laundering and/or funding terrorism.  Tho he won't disclose that information unless requested by the government/police.

Sorry, that doesn't hold water.  He didn't get any ID to get the money in, so the ID means nothing now.  What's he going to compare it to?

The only way to have any faith it's being returned to the depositors is to return it to the same address.

The AML /Terrorism issue is to stop funds being paid back to a laundery or terrorist. You dont have to compare it to where the funds came from the exchange just has to have proof of who they are passing that money back too. Ideally in order to comply with AML they should have had those details before they accepted deposits, they didnt do that and it seems they are trying to cover there backs by taking these steps. IF that is what is actually happening not much has been reliably confirmed yet. Much of the converstation in these threads is conjecture, speculation and FUD.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

No Nafario told me on the phone he's had to shut down to avoid (possible) jail time for helping to fund terrorism and helping money laundering never mind all the tax issues.

I don't find it really funny that such ridiculously false claims can so easily be used by these mafias to screw people this way. I mean, seriously?? How can people fall for such bullshit?

Anyways... after a mass murdering war was started on inexistent nuclear bombs, and after that even more ridiculous story of Bin Laden's death, it's pretty much clear they don't give a shit about sounding reasonable. Any lame excuse seems to be fine.

[Aahz]

All users coins on the GLBSE is safe and untouched.  Nafario wants to return them as soon as possible as they are a legal liability to him.  He also said he will soon have a way for asset issuers to pay dividends but not trade shares.

What, exactly, is stopping him from simply sending them all back to the accounts from whence they came?

I think he will need full legal ID to pay back coins and shares.  Otherwise he risks being charged with possible money laundering and/or funding terrorism.  Tho he won't disclose that information unless requested by the government/police.

Sorry, that doesn't hold water.  He didn't get any ID to get the money in, so the ID means nothing now.  What's he going to compare it to?

The only way to have any faith it's being returned to the depositors is to return it to the same address.

that they may not have come from a wallet/address controllable by the account holder...

like the BTC I sent in from MtGox, Vircurex, Cryptostocks, etc... if GLBSE did what you suggest, all of my coin would  be sent back to those sites' sending addresses, which wouldn't get credited to my accounts.

Now, THAT I could see as a problem.  Is there any way to tell if a payment comes from a person or a 3rd party?  If so, he could still "reverse" the direct payments.

Maybe not to you but I think that's what Nafario's lawyer has told him is his get out of jail card for possible criminal charges.  This is not about stealing coins.  The GLBSE was where Nafario made his living and he didn't shut it down for the sake of shooting himself in the foot to steal coins.  As I stated he's working on a withdrawal process to comply with AML rules and will soon have a way for asset issuers to pay dividends but not trade shares.

For the record, I currently have neither shares or coins in GLBSE.  I also don't think this was a "run with the user coins" situation because I don't believe there wee enough "user coins" to make that worthwhile.  

I am, however, still curious what good proving ones identity is going to do.  There are no identities connected to these accounts to begin with, so no way to prove that John Doe's coins are his even after he proves he truly is named John Doe.

[repentance]

This is a theory that I've been mulling over for a while.  Bitcoinica self-destructed after it moved to London as well.  Derivative trading is completely unregulated in London.  It is entirely possible that someone is quietly buying out key Bitcoin businesses, and basically paying for them to fail.  Nothing prohibits it.  I'm sure there are those with enough money, and enough interest in seeing Bitcoin harmed, to pay off all those involved.  From the outside, all we see is "blah blah hacking terrorism money laundering investigation blah blah shutting down".  While, behind the scenes, there is a lot that could be going on.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to take a chance at getting rich, move to London and start a Bitcoin stock exchange.

When did Bitcoinica "move to London"?  The only UK involvement in Bitcoinica is the share/interest swap which saw Wendon acquire shares in Intersango (which is a UK entity).  That Amir lives in the UK doesn't mean that Bitcoinica was operating under UK jurisdiction.

And yes, I'm sure there's plenty of bribery and corruption happening behind the scenes in the Bitcoin world just as there are plenty of stealth acquisitions, though I suspect that it's not being perpetrated by those who wish to see "Bitcoin harmed" but by those who want to expand their power and influence and increase their own wealth at the expense of others.

[matthewh3]

I think he will need full legal ID to pay back coins and shares.  Otherwise he risks being charged with possible money laundering and/or funding terrorism.  Tho he won't disclose that information unless requested by the government/police.

Sorry, that doesn't hold water.  He didn't get any ID to get the money in, so the ID means nothing now.  What's he going to compare it to?

The only way to have any faith it's being returned to the depositors is to return it to the same address.

The AML /Terrorism issue is to stop funds being paid back to a laundery or terrorist. You dont have to compare it to where the funds came from the exchange just has to have proof of who they are passing that money back too. Ideally in order to comply with AML they should have had those details before they accepted deposits, they didnt do that and it seems they are trying to cover there backs by taking these steps. IF that is what is aactually happening. Much of the converstation in these threads is conjecture and speculation and FUD.

It's just like when MtGox forced AML on people who wanted to withdraw.  Nafario doesn't do it and he has a very real risk of going to jail.

[Aahz]

]The AML /Terrorism issue is to stop funds being paid back to a laundery or terrorist. You dont have to compare it to where the funds came from the exchange just has to have proof of who they are passing that money back too. Ideally in order to comply with AML they should have had those details before they accepted deposits, they didnt do that and it seems they are trying to cover there backs by taking these steps. IF that is what is actually happening not much has been reliably confirmed yet. Much of the converstation in these threads is conjecture, speculation and FUD.

If that's the case, then wouldn't all of those who sent money in to GLBSE be facing the same charges?  Afterall, how many of us have any idea who Nefario is? Not to mention who is on the other side of the securities we purchased.

[matthewh3]

]The AML /Terrorism issue is to stop funds being paid back to a laundery or terrorist. You dont have to compare it to where the funds came from the exchange just has to have proof of who they are passing that money back too. Ideally in order to comply with AML they should have had those details before they accepted deposits, they didnt do that and it seems they are trying to cover there backs by taking these steps. IF that is what is actually happening not much has been reliably confirmed yet. Much of the converstation in these threads is conjecture, speculation and FUD.

If that's the case, then wouldn't all of those who sent money in to GLBSE be facing the same charges?  Afterall, how many of us have any idea who Nefario is? Not to mention who is on the other side of the securities we purchased.

Yes I think you missed the point.  Everyone who wants to withdraw coins or take ownership of shares will have to now comply with AML regulations.

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

Two tips that I think I should leave here:

To those who have money on GLBSE: Don't send real IDs. If the criminal agency which is forcing Nefario to shut down is also forcing him to require such IDs, that's because they likely want to investigate GLBSE clients. If the amount you have there is something you can afford to lose, then eat the loss. If it's too much to lose, perhaps trying to craft some good fake IDs would be a good idea. SR people may be your friend now.

To the forum administration: consider a backup plan for BitcoinTalk. Just in case.

It's likely that I'm being over paranoid in this post, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

[Smoovious]

]The AML /Terrorism issue is to stop funds being paid back to a laundery or terrorist. You dont have to compare it to where the funds came from the exchange just has to have proof of who they are passing that money back too. Ideally in order to comply with AML they should have had those details before they accepted deposits, they didnt do that and it seems they are trying to cover there backs by taking these steps. IF that is what is actually happening not much has been reliably confirmed yet. Much of the converstation in these threads is conjecture, speculation and FUD.

If that's the case, then wouldn't all of those who sent money in to GLBSE be facing the same charges?  Afterall, how many of us have any idea who Nefario is? Not to mention who is on the other side of the securities we purchased.

Just who sent in money to GLBSE anyways?

I didn't... I only sent in bitcoin.

(using those terms interchangeably, isn't helping us)

-- Smoov

[Severian]

For that matter I can't see how it supposed to apply to a UK business either.

The central government in the US does have an annoying habit of claiming jurisdiction over the entire planet.

[wachtwoord]

For that matter I can't see how it supposed to apply to a UK business either.

The central government in the US does have an annoying habit of claiming jurisdiction over the entire planet.

And they often enforce it too with physical force

[Severian]

The law you cited has nothing to do with what the value of the security is denominated in.  Notice the lack of the word "dollar" in the definition of "security"?  Are you going to say that means the law doesn't apply to Wall Street either?

So what "value" does a bitcoin have in the eyes of the law?