GLBSE Payment Claims (Announce your payment here)

[dishwara]

Since he so far didn't repay any asset issuers their bitcoin, & his commanding reply, shows he has some plans.

Probably some evil and convoluted one,like everything he's doing.  But to me, it shows one of the biggest A-holes I've seen in the last years.

I don't think he has evil plans.
But he has/had plans which is evil for governments.

Bitcoin itself is evil plan to governments, but it's good plan to anti governments.

[GeoRW]

So, for anyone reading this who has gotten a double payment, the return address is 1BgPRMk4uaJrohM1T9Cn4Hd9pHaEL6FH5j

It would be better to return the coins without me having to chase you for them.

Just read it.

Should I return the full double payment, or take my 10% out of it?

Wouldn't it be better, to mail everyone who has gotten a double payment with a different address, so you can keep track of returned funds and who will get the 10% remaining?

Or will everyone get them no matter if he returns them and you just hope all people are honest (which the aren't).

I will return the funds, but I don't want to make you clusterfuck even worse (all returns in one address, some minus 10%, some full), so please send out a mail to all accounts with details.

Thank you.

+1, should I return all or just everything above 100%? Double payment was sent to my offline wallet and it will take me some time to return them. At least a mail should be sent, not everyone is reading forums. This is a major fuck-up. Geez.
BTW, before sending coins, Nefario should have sent account information to everyone (number of bitcoins in account + number of shares holding of each asset + csv of account transactions).

[memvola]

I don't think he has evil plans.
But he has/had plans which is evil for governments.

Bitcoin itself is evil plan to governments, but it's good plan to anti governments.

Maybe he had, now he hasn't.

I'm convinced that what he's doing is not only a result of him trying to avoid prosecution, but also trying to keep the platform in his control. He is working for his own "positive" gain at the cost of the immense losses we are suffering.

Think of it this way. We could have easily managed to continue business without GLBSE, but he has intentionally and actively prevented us from being able to do so. He has planned this sabotage of all businesses on the exchange, and probably will use the information he's holding hostage to coerce the asset issuers to submit to his plan, whatever it is.

This is the most extreme betrayal of trust we have witnessed so far, it's almost a statement against the people with anti-government sentiment forcing us to "face the reality", that we cannot do business that depends on mutual trust without the helping hand of the State.

+1, should I return all or just everything above 100%? Double payment was sent to my offline wallet and it will take me some time to return them. At least a mail should be sent, not everyone is reading forums. This is a major fuck-up. Geez.
BTW, before sending coins, Nefario should have sent account information to everyone (number of bitcoins in account + number of shares holding of each asset + csv of account transactions).

You have the right to 100%, so I guess the excess should be returned.

Nefario could have easily sent a digitally signed account info to everyone on day one, which would result in us continuing to move on with our lives with minimal impact. So I don't expect him to do it now or ever. He can't not resolve the issue either. He will most likely use the leverage he has to force issuers into cooperating with his further demands.

[SebastianJu]

A lot of people would be better off keeping the overpayment than being able to claim their now worthless shares/bonds from asset issuers so I wish him good luck with trying to get people to honour his request.

I thought so too. I mean who could blame the guys that got double payment and have shares at glbse when they kept the double payment until they get their shares detail? They didnt get the shares so they could keep the btc hostage. At least nefario cant blame them... he gave the example for such behaviour.
The wonderful thing is, like Namworld is saying... nef wont give out the share details until all btc are paid back. I hope i didnt give this argument when writing this as a guess. Because of course there are ways to do both.
They could tell the issuer to not pay until all glbsemoney is sent. Or when they send an email anyway and are doing all with a script they could send an email to the receiver and tell them how much they sent. So i dont think i will let it count when they dont want to start sending out sharedetails because of the reason the receiver doesnt know then who the sender is.

So would we be right in assuming that no-one's going to authorise any salary payments to Nefario until this mess has been cleaned up and that the business will use its own remaining funds to top-up any shortfall if Nefario is unable to recover all the over-payments?

Nefario will now get paid when hell freezes over 

I dont think the amount bitcoinglobal has will cover Nefario's latest fuckup, even without paying him. Of course he will still demand it.....

So when that is how the glbse-shareholders think and nefario has the right at the money then he will fight this out on the glbse-users back right?
I think even ceos in free economic get their salary when they run a business into ground. And there is no law that says that they have to pay for their errors. So i think its important how the contract looks.
Anyway... nef hurt the wallet of glbse-shareholders and when he fight this out on the back of the glbse-users... who will ever work with him again showing such disrespect to partners and customers?

Maybe he will just transfer all shares & bonds to LEGAL exchange (Bitcoinglobal).
Coz already, most of the asset issuers identity is known, they cant runaway from government to hide their money, if they do anything illegal in respect to assets they issued.

So for asset issuers, the choice will be transfer all the assets in to new LEGAL exchange & continue business or default assets or get back assets.
Asset issuers cant default, coz it will affect their reputation & future.
Also, getting back assets, will affect their reputation & future business & they loose bitcoins (thats why, he didn't repay them).

So, no good/other way, but go in Nefario's way.

Maybe thats his thought so that people are forced to work with him again. But then he wrote in the article that it needs a million $ crowdfunded to create such a platform legally. So this will never happen. There will be no new platform and such plan cant go into realitzation. Luckily. Because what would it be for a businessrelation when the parttaker are forced to it and doesnt trust the ceo at all. That cant live for long of course.
So i dont fear this possibility.

[conspirosphere.tk]

This is the most extreme betrayal of trust we have witnessed so far, it's almost a statement against the people with anti-government sentiment forcing us to "face the reality", that we cannot do business that depends on mutual trust without the helping hand of the State.

If I were based in the UK, I would have already contacted a lawyer and/or the police to try to move the violent arm of the Law against him with full force. (*) There is a limit on how much one can scam, steal and cause general mayhem with impunity even in the BTCsphere.

(*) But I do not discard the idea of doing it from where I am. Maybe some of like-minded GLBSE users may start to cooperate to try to force him to clear his mess now or face some legal consequence.

[dishwara]

I don't think he has evil plans.
But he has/had plans which is evil for governments.

Bitcoin itself is evil plan to governments, but it's good plan to anti governments.

Maybe he had, now he hasn't.

I'm convinced that what he's doing is not only a result of him trying to avoid prosecution, but also trying to keep the platform in his control. He is working for his own "positive" gain at the cost of the immense losses we are suffering.

Think of it this way. We could have easily managed to continue business without GLBSE, but he has intentionally and actively prevented us from being able to do so. He has planned this sabotage of all businesses on the exchange, and probably will use the information he's holding hostage to coerce the asset issuers to submit to his plan, whatever it is.

This is the most extreme betrayal of trust we have witnessed so far, it's almost a statement against the people with anti-government sentiment forcing us to "face the reality", that we cannot do business that depends on mutual trust without the helping hand of the State.

Yes, can't deny.
I have seen sometimes before also, that Bitcoin goes to centralized from decentralized & vice verse.
At least Nefario returning bitcoins & may open exchange again, instead of running away like pirateat40

[memvola]

This is the most extreme betrayal of trust we have witnessed so far, it's almost a statement against the people with anti-government sentiment forcing us to "face the reality", that we cannot do business that depends on mutual trust without the helping hand of the State.

If I were based in the UK, I would have already contacted a lawyer and/or the police to try to move the violent arm of the Law against him with full force. (*) There is a limit on how much one can scam, steal and cause general mayhem with impunity even in the BTCsphere.

(*) But I do not discard the idea of doing it from where I am. Maybe some of like-minded GLBSE users may start to cooperate to try to force him to clear his mess now or face some legal consequence.

I'll wait to see what kind of "solution" he'll come up with for the "problem" of sharing the data sitting in his computer. No need to further pursue the case if all the issuers I need to deal with are likely to agree. However, I'm willing fly to UK and file my complaint if there is a joint community action before that happens.

The problem is, there are issuers that are accused of being scammers, and Nefario's "solution" may very likely prevent us from pursuing those people and therefore help them get away with it. Since Nefario was acting as the broker, he is solely responsible for the communication between those issuers and shareholders. His responsibility still continues. He not only has to inform the issuer of my presence, he is required to give me signed proof of ownership.

At least Nefario returning bitcoins & may open exchange again, instead of running away like pirateat40

I agree, but note that Pirate wasn't a prominent figure representing Bitcoin and he wasn't trying to be one. There are reasons we trusted Nefario, and he actively tried to convince us, on record, that what's currently happening was impossible.

[theymos]

Nefario has proven himself to be ridiculously incompetent, so it might be safer for people who received extra BTC to hold it until Nefario distributes all of the BTC he has and he releases the share info.

So would we be right in assuming that no-one's going to authorise any salary payments to Nefario until this mess has been cleaned up and that the business will use its own remaining funds to top-up any shortfall if Nefario is unable to recover all the over-payments?

Yes. I never paid Nefario, and there's no way I'm going to pay him as long as BitcoinGlobal is in debt to users. And the remaining operating funds will be used to cover any debt to users. If most people who received extra BTC are honest and Nefario didn't spend any of the user funds (on lawyers or whatever), I think there should be enough money.

[organofcorti]

Isn't it necessary to fill out some complicated, intrusive forms and submit copies of your ID to someone you barely know in some other country before waiting a few weeks to receive a refund? I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

No, that was forum members making things up as they went along.

not true, he did ask for and many people did send that info.

To get the bitcoin sitting unattached in your GLBSE account?

[fbastage]

is Nefario sending his AML/KYC documentation to everyone he needs the double-send refund from?

*snicker*

but seriously, my heart weeps for this whole situation. :|

if there's any way I can help (doubt it, though) short of sending anyone my own funds, let me know.

[Shadow383]

I've had the BTC that was in my GLBSE account - which is not even 1% of the value (at the time of closure) of the assets I held on there 

[theymos]

People should "hold" BTC that is not theirs and they know it is not theirs? People have got the scammers tag before for doing just that... I do not see how this is "safer". You are asking them to accept a liability cuz Nefario is fail...

If anyone received coin that is not theirs they should return it ASAP! It is the correct thing to do.

I'm shocked at what Theymos is advocating here...

Yes Nefario is clearly incompetent but holding on to something that is not theirs is just wrong.

The money isn't Nefario's, either. I trust random recipients of the money more than I trust Nefario.

[CharlesPonzi]

People should "hold" BTC that is not theirs and they know it is not theirs? People have got the scammers tag before for doing just that... I do not see how this is "safer". You are asking them to accept a liability cuz Nefario is fail...

If anyone received coin that is not theirs they should return it ASAP! It is the correct thing to do.

I'm shocked at what Theymos is advocating here...

Yes Nefario is clearly incompetent but holding on to something that is not theirs is just wrong.

The money isn't Nefario's, either. I trust random recipients of the money more than I trust Nefario.

It does not matter who you trust. You are asking people to keep BTC that is not theirs.

If anything the money should go to the paper wallet address untill things get sorted out.

[greyhawk]

No, because Nefario can go to the police now esp if he has AML docs on these people.

No, he can't. Because his collecting AML docs as an unregistered finanical institution was illegal as well in most jurisdictions.

[conspirosphere.tk]

They must give back the coins ASAP anything else is criminal and scamming. Shame on Theymos for suggesting such immoral actions.
I don't trust Nefario either but two wrongs do not make a right.

A few months ago I returned immediately much more than my double payment (0.40 BTC) to Flax and Chungenung, since they sent me BTC due to an error of them.
Now, though, returning these bitcents to nefario seems to me like call back a thieve who has already taken your wallet to give him your watch.
Moreover, I am quite sure that I had more than 0.7 BTC in my GLBSE account a couple of hours before the closing.

The fact that he is threatening instead of returning immediately my 140 BTC in assets just persuades me of what a scum he is, and I do not like to follow the orders of someone who just stolen my property.

BTW: at this moment 5 people obeyed nef. :
https://blockchain.info/address/1BgPRMk4uaJrohM1T9Cn4Hd9pHaEL6FH5j

[Namworld]

Should I return the full double payment, or take my 10% out of it?

Wouldn't it be better, to mail everyone who has gotten a double payment with a different address, so you can keep track of returned funds and who will get the 10% remaining?

Or will everyone get them no matter if he returns them and you just hope all people are honest (which the aren't).

I will return the funds, but I don't want to make you clusterfuck even worse (all returns in one address, some minus 10%, some full), so please send out a mail to all accounts with details.

Thank you.

I'd think Nefario's expecting the double payment in full and at this point has to trust everyone for their honesty.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, for anyone reading this who has gotten a double payment, the return address is 1BgPRMk4uaJrohM1T9Cn4Hd9pHaEL6FH5j

It would be better to return the coins without me having to chase you for them.

Lol. Without the threat (hypothetically, I didn't actually get paid, certainly not twice) I'd return them, but if he's going to be 'chasing' people I would use his coins to cover defense costs (running shoes?) since you are about as likely to get 'chased' if you pay or not, he doesn't know who sends coins to that address.

No idea about that, but I don't think it was meant as a literal threat to chase you. Seems more like he meant it would be easier if people just returned it instead of him losing time and nagging everyone for the return of the BTC. Although without any voice tone, it's impossible to determinate. Poor communication there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Its not that hard to find who has returned & who hasn't.

He has receivers or members bitcoin address.
Just have to compare it with their GLBSE account, if he sent 90% or 180%.
If its 180%, then i assume he will force them to repay by not returning the assets they have in their GLBSE account.

His only reply after ~20+ days, shows some what aggressive & commanding, instead of requesting or asking or begging.

Since he so far didn't repay any asset issuers their bitcoin, & his commanding reply, shows he has some plans.
Maybe he will just transfer all shares & bonds to LEGAL exchange (Bitcoinglobal).
Coz already, most of the asset issuers identity is known, they cant runaway from government to hide their money, if they do anything illegal in respect to assets they issued.

So for asset issuers, the choice will be transfer all the assets in to new LEGAL exchange & continue business or default assets or get back assets.
Asset issuers cant default, coz it will affect their reputation & future.
Also, getting back assets, will affect their reputation & future business & they loose bitcoins (thats why, he didn't repay them).

So, no good/other way, but go in Nefario's way.

He DID repay asset issuers their Bitcoins.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for people suggesting to keep the overpayment as ransom until asset information is disclosed, I think that's exactly why asset information is not disclosed. He needs to process payments first before giving the address to issuers and issuers giving payments, otherwise it would get confusing if something is a payment from GLBSE or from an issuer.

I'd also think like Chaang that it's plain wrong to hold on to something you know is not yours. Even if by now no one trusts Nefario. It belongs to other persons. At least return the 80% extra and keep 100%, sending from the address you provided to GLBSE, so Nefario knows how much you personally sent back. So long as it's from the same address, he'll know.

A lot of people would be better off keeping the overpayment than being able to claim their now worthless shares/bonds from asset issuers so I wish him good luck with trying to get people to honour his request.

Nefario appears to have been taking customer relations lessons from Patrick Strateman.

As for that and others making such claims... plain wrong. Although I don't agree that the shares are now valueless, even if they were... you'd cut your loss by keeping other's balance and leaving others with nothing?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Welcome to bitcoin.

Sent to address I control = mine. Period.

Need chargebacks, pay with creditcards.

If an agreement for my holding someone elses coin is in place, or I am to provide some value for an investment, etc - and failed to come through, sure I should be ostracized by the community.

But to say that keeping coins that magically appeared one night on my address with absolutely no agreement in place regarding the transaction, are not mine, is laughable.

If someone accidentally sent you too much money on a bank account you "control", although it's been sent in your possession, a good thing to do would be to return them. Everyone can make errors and if you'd want someone to return the same should you make a similar mistake... simple courtesy, even if according to your convictions, any money handed to you automatically becomes yours. Yes, although laws would say it would not be yours, people might consider things differently, which doesn't mean they'd have to be jerks about it and not notify/give back the extra someone would have mistakenly handed to them.

We're all not happy about GLBSE closing down, but the vengeful approach taken by some for actions done by Nefario that are detrimental to other people that were on GLBSE is plain disgusting to me. Good to know who are taking a step on everyone and take the lifeboat for yourself approach when the ship is sinking.

(P.S. Before someone counters by saying I don't get to say what's right and wrong. Yes you're free to have your own opinion of right and wrong. Just stating mine.)

[Yogafan00000]

I recieved a double payment.  I have no problem with returning the excess. The Bitcoin culture needs more honesty and I'm willing to do my part. However, it's evident that whoever is in charge of the GLBSE winding down cannot be trusted to get it done correctly.

Therefore, before I send any coins, I want an official request emailed from the GLBSE website, not some posting by someone with a scammer tag on this forum.  (I only noticed I had been double paid because of this thread)

I also want to be able to retrieve details on all my transctions on the GLBSE site before it went dark.  The only way I'll be satisfied that my account has been settled is if I reconcile it myself.

[Namworld]

Well that's more like it. Demanding your account history or personal data along with an official request is perfectly fine to me before returning the double payment.

[Bitcoin Oz]

You are asking people to keep BTC that is not theirs.

They must give back the coins ASAP anything else is criminal and scamming. Shame on Theymos for suggesting such immoral actions.

Welcome to bitcoin.

Sent to address I control = mine. Period.

Need chargebacks, pay with creditcards.

If an agreement for my holding someone elses coin is in place, or I am to provide some value for an investment, etc - and failed to come through, sure I should be ostracized by the community.

But to say that keeping coins that magically appeared one night on my address with absolutely no agreement in place regarding the transaction, are not mine, is laughable.


-----

On a side thought: Nef has not given anyone asset info / csv - how are people who do not read this thread, and who got a large payment, to know that the extra payment wasn't from dividends / sales or somesuch.

Theymos has in the past gave a guy a scammers tag for keeping BTC that he knew was not his. Theymos is asking everyone here to take a scammers tag!

I would be demanding my .csv and other details before giving the coins back 

[SebastianJu]

No, because Nefario can go to the police now esp if he has AML docs on these people. When the police knock on the door and say where are the funds saying Theymos said to keep them is not going to fly. Saying they sent then to someone else will not fly.

They must give back the coins ASAP anything else is criminal and scamming. Shame on Theymos for suggesting such immoral actions.

Sorry but when you send someone money through wire and accidentally changed a number... you wont get back the money. You sent it and it wasnt stolen. Its moral to give it back but the bank wont charge it back or something. Only when its stolen.

He DID repay asset issuers their Bitcoins.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for people suggesting to keep the overpayment as ransom until asset information is disclosed, I think that's exactly why asset information is not disclosed. He needs to process payments first before giving the address to issuers and issuers giving payments, otherwise it would get confusing if something is a payment from GLBSE or from an issuer.

What? Asset issuers got their bitcoins back? I think at least for asicminer, who hadnt a small amount there, its not true. Asicminer didnt get an answer at all from nef till now.

Regarding the asset information... its not correct to held these informations hostage. Im not guilty for not paying any fee to nef from my bitcoins(i didnt got all) and i cant do anything regarding the missing ceo-payment. So no, its not correct what he is doing here.

By the way... its not necessary that nef cant give out the asset infos as long as he didnt paid out all btc because he can send an email stating what he paid. So there shouldnt be a misunderstanding. And that you now say that we only get the asset info after all payments are paid, and that includes the doublepayment is paid back, that would mean i would never get the asset info. Because there will always be someone dont paying back. And no i cant do anything again here but dont get the asset info because of that?