IOTA

[wizzardTim]

A premine 5% from all genesis accounts would be good imho

[WorldCoiner]

Just to say everybody IOTAERS, Solidarity!!!

Check my post if you can donate some IOTA!!  

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1216479.msg15007209#msg15007209

No worries Yassin, I would even spend more than in the Excel File you track.
But I am happy about, that I need to finance the free riders, that won´t donate and also never show up in testing, never tweet and contact IOT-companies: No, I´m somehow bitter about it and it harms my motivation as well.

[CoinFreedom]

I share most of the concerns and frustrations that have been voiced here over the last couple of days. All these foundation worries could have been easily avoided if the money ("software" ) had just been set aside for it from the start. I think that was a mistake and don't really buy the "we wanted to leave it up to the community and prevent bystander effect" argument because that was not clearly communicated at the start. Actually, I couldn't find any mention of it anywhere prior to the crowdsale (or whatever it's called for this project).

I'd still be happy to have 5% taken from me at launch (or more as long as it's the same for everyone) but I realize it's likely too late for that now. I fully intend to donate generously but will only do so once the process is simplified and I feel safer using the software.

I still think the community will pull through and make the foundation happen, even if it takes more time than expected. To make it happen faster I think the community would appreciate knowing the details of what the funds will be used for. Who will be the members of the foundations? What are the foundation's goals? How will they be achieved? How much money will each objective cost? Of course, much of this is uncertain right now but clear and open info in this regard will help a lot in conveying the importance of the foundation to the community.

Once a clear vision and direction for the foundation has been agreed upon, please post this info in the opening page and maybe send it out to the email list.

Actually, posting more general info to the OP would probably save a lot of time and headaches answering the same questions over and over again.

[rtrtcrypto]

Guys, there are no free riders. Those who have IOTA tokens BOUGHT THEM. There was no talk about "continued future financial support" at the time. There are usually clauses in contracts about this very issue...  

Just to say everybody IOTAERS, Solidarity!!!

Check my post if you can donate some IOTA!!  

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1216479.msg15007209#msg15007209

No worries Yassin, I would even spend more than in the Excel File you track.
But I am happy about, that I need to finance the free riders, that won´t donate and also never show up in testing, never tweet and contact IOT-companies: No, I´m somehow bitter about it and it harms my motivation as well.

[iotatoken]

But, still, I understand that this is simply a "communication problem", and I prefer to believe that their intention is not threatening. OK. So, I told myself, overcome all this and do your best for the community.

It's certainly no threat, what could we possibly be threatening with? The terms of our sale agreement were simple: You prepurchase software, we develop said software, you get said software - deal is done. No more, no less.

If people also want us to continue working + other people who will be in the foundation, then of course they have to pay for it. No one is going to work 5-10 hour days for anyone for free, that's borderline slavery. The reason we have to take this blunt tone is that a lot of people in crypto tend to actually treat the initiators of projects like slaves that they somehow inexplicably 'own' for all eternity. We have seen this 100 times in crypto and decided to solve this from day 1 by not having a premine and leaving it in the hands of the community, everyone is free and everyone has a free choice. We don't own anyone *ANYTHING* except the software.

For us what matters is that the tech itself gets adoption, if that is not achievable through the current IOTA community then I predict a company driven consortium will be the best way to make this happen.

The choice lies in the hands of the community.

[gernat]

I agree, a 5% premine would suit me fine.

Agree. It´s the best solution.

Yeah, but it's too late. ICO with other conditions was done. Now we have to deal with it.

Agree with you, a deal is a deal!!  

Now lets go for donate to foundation!!    (if you can of course)  

Yes as I said I would mean the rules have to be changed a bit. I don't see a big problem.
Again things change, it is how you deal with these changes.

A lot of Iota holders are not very comfortable, this is what is holding up the donations.

I think there are 2 options to speed up the process:
- 5% 'premine'
or
- Iota qt client for easy sending the tokens

I have not problem for other solution, just i afraid reaction people, if rules change!! 
I want the good for IOTA!! 

Is that really so that the rule will be changed? I see it as further development of necessity of iota ecosystem.
That's just my opinion

[yassin54]

No worries Yassin, I would even spend more than in the Excel File you track.

Thanks my friend!! good reaction!!  

[hoertest]

And stop using the word speculator like it means childmolester or something.
I bougt iota after the ico and yes i speculate on this purchase to make my financial sitution better in the long run one way or the other. I don't feel guilty for that.  i would also donate some in the future when there is some price stability. no problem.

Noone says you should feel guilty, but our goals are different and I prefer if you sell in the beginning so other people with goals similar to mine will replace you. Nothing personal, just business.

I can respect that. perhaps one day you'll see that people with my goals are necessary for people with your goals to reach them and vice versa. but that doesn't matter now. back to business  

My proposition to make the Foundation happen:

Cut the % crap,

split launch in two phases with a "iota internal Foundation ICO" held in between.
First release a stable version that allows claiming iotas and settling any open deals. promote this so most Iotas are claimed.
then set up a donation Adress for the Foundation , perhaps a fancy website for it to see progress.
Now make the reaching of the necessary amount for foundation mandatory for the second Launch phase that would include beeing listed on Big Exchanges. That way you don't brake contract with ico investors,
the bad bad speculators would see it as a listing fee to play on polo.
Of course you would need the exchange on board for that.

[josegines]

I think the problem is that for the 2nd transfer have given the same Address, but my intention was to have all my IOTA at the same address

Claim iotas again if they haven't appeared. In the worst case you'll get your share doubled.

I claim again with the same seed, in IRI:

IRI 0.9.15
Connected to the coordinator
Tips Receiver: 4 ms (743 -> 0 -> 2271) // 1
Number of tips = 1
Donated 1111812400 of 55590620000 iotas
The claiming packet is prepared, waiting for the confirmation
Tips Receiver: 3 ms (744 -> 0 -> 2271) // 2
Number of tips = 1

but http://188.138.57.93/nostalgia.html not change the balance

but what about transfer @Bitme? if I do not get in my address, I should go back to @Bitme

[iotatoken]

Guys, there are no free riders. Those who have IOTA tokens BOUGHT THEM. There was no talk about "continued future financial support" at the time. There are usually clauses in contracts about this very issue...  

Yes, people purchased the software, which is almost done. That's the end of our sales agreement.

What is being discussed here is the future of the tech in terms of adoption in the real world, someone has to do that work, it does not happen on its own, thus if someone want a group of people to do this, they have to pay for it.

[youyou_]

if the community decides they'll rather use the nxt approach, then that is their free choice. We offer the foundation movement as an option and the community will vote on it with donations, if enough donations is not achieved it won't happen.

ICO that didn't raise enough for ongoing development, followed by a foundation & donation funding model that leads to bitterness and people leaving ... hate to tell you iotatoken but it looks like YOU already decided on the NXT approach for everyone else already

why didn't you just add a 5% premine?

will there be an IOTA 2.0 once you realise the error?

The software sale was to fund IOTA development until launch.

No one is bitter here, we're creating revolutionary technology that we need for our visions, if community decide on another vision that is entirely up to the community.

But obviously we've witnessed the Nxt approach, so I urge people to make a sane choice, but it's still a choice, that's the point. WE don't force anyone, IOTA is all about participation, it's not a free ride.

The reason we didn't add a premine has been explained ad nauseam: to prevent the bystander effect from kicking in. IOTA is an open source movement that is about participation. If we had allocated a premine then we expect less participation from the community due to the perception that "it's already being taken care of".

If IOTA foundation is not established and the community goes in another direction from what we need then we'll most likely just team up with the companies we have lined up on a consortium. We'd prefer to not have to take this approach though, as we got so much momentum already in the IOTA community, but at the end of the day we created IOTA for IoT tech stack that we need, so that's our goal. IOTA is not some random political movement or speculator game, it's a technology.

I don't agree with something David: you say : "THE community" like if it was a whole and homogeneous organ.
But do you think guys like me who already pledge 10% of their stack deserve to be treated in the same way as retarded speculators who are sitting on their stack waiting for people to work/invest for them?

[ImI]

Basically everyone who holds more IOTA than he needs for testing purposes is a speculator. There is simply no need to hold larger amounts of IOTA until you somehow plan to do a profit. Even if you are planing to hold IOTA for 10 years or more you are still speculating that the value will rise, otherwise there would be no need to hold any IOTA at all.

[Buratino]

The idea behind a no premine is great.

But things can change along the way, no big deal imo.


Lets just do a 5% premine, no hastle everybody donates the same, small or big holder. It is in everybodies best interest.

I think it also will have a positive effect, since it will mean moving forward.


We are all part of this great project. I think if more that 50% wants a premine, lets do it and move on.

+1 strongly agreed

[Tobo]

It is still possible to deduct 5% from all in Tangle.

It's impossible.

Is it still possible to create 5% more coins for foundation or deflate the current coin supply to 95% and leave 5% for the foundation?

[iotatoken]

if the community decides they'll rather use the nxt approach, then that is their free choice. We offer the foundation movement as an option and the community will vote on it with donations, if enough donations is not achieved it won't happen.

ICO that didn't raise enough for ongoing development, followed by a foundation & donation funding model that leads to bitterness and people leaving ... hate to tell you iotatoken but it looks like YOU already decided on the NXT approach for everyone else already

why didn't you just add a 5% premine?

will there be an IOTA 2.0 once you realise the error?

The software sale was to fund IOTA development until launch.

No one is bitter here, we're creating revolutionary technology that we need for our visions, if community decide on another vision that is entirely up to the community.

But obviously we've witnessed the Nxt approach, so I urge people to make a sane choice, but it's still a choice, that's the point. WE don't force anyone, IOTA is all about participation, it's not a free ride.

The reason we didn't add a premine has been explained ad nauseam: to prevent the bystander effect from kicking in. IOTA is an open source movement that is about participation. If we had allocated a premine then we expect less participation from the community due to the perception that "it's already being taken care of".

If IOTA foundation is not established and the community goes in another direction from what we need then we'll most likely just team up with the companies we have lined up on a consortium. We'd prefer to not have to take this approach though, as we got so much momentum already in the IOTA community, but at the end of the day we created IOTA for IoT tech stack that we need, so that's our goal. IOTA is not some random political movement or speculator game, it's a technology.

I don't agree with something David: you say : "THE community" like if it was a whole and homogeneous organ.
But do you think guys like me who already pledge 10% of their stack deserve to be treated in the same way as retarded speculators who are sitting on their stack waiting for people to work/invest for them?

Of course I will use the term 'the community' when speaking of something as broad as THE actual community. I can't single out 500 different people's stances. I have emphasized hundreds of times in this very thread that I am speaking on a *general level*, I believe the MAJORITY of the community want to and will donate to the foundation. But at the end of the day all of these different people in the community make up 'THE community', I have never once said that it's a homogeneous organism.

[rtrtcrypto]

There is an implied threat, sure. That there will be a fork and that what we have as software will be useless. I would also say that this would appear to me to be a breach of the terms of sale of said software.

If this software is no longer part of the tangle we were supposed to be a part of, then I'm not quite sure what it is that we have bought. This would feel a little like being sold a car and then told "AHA! Only problem is that you can't drive it on any roads, but still, you got what you paid for". Problem is, the software sale is attached to the idea of the tangle itself - if you fork the tangle and just go on your merry way, I'm not sure how that will look (well, yes i do).

ps. if this "threat" is not what is implied by "company driven consortium" then I apologize before hand.

But, still, I understand that this is simply a "communication problem", and I prefer to believe that their intention is not threatening. OK. So, I told myself, overcome all this and do your best for the community.

It's certainly no threat, what could we possibly be threatening with? The terms of our sale agreement were simple: You prepurchase software, we develop said software, you get said software - deal is done. No more, no less.

If people also want us to continue working + other people who will be in the foundation, then of course they have to pay for it. No one is going to work 5-10 hour days for anyone for free, that's borderline slavery. The reason we have to take this blunt tone is that a lot of people in crypto tend to actually treat the initiators of projects like slaves that they somehow inexplicably 'own' for all eternity. We have seen this 100 times in crypto and decided to solve this from day 1 by not having a premine and leaving it in the hands of the community, everyone is free and everyone has a free choice. We don't own anyone *ANYTHING* except the software.

For us what matters is that the tech itself gets adoption, if that is not achievable through the current IOTA community then I predict a company driven consortium will be the best way to make this happen.

The choice lies in the hands of the community.

[banqueiro]

Guys, there are no free riders. Those who have IOTA tokens BOUGHT THEM. There was no talk about "continued future financial support" at the time. There are usually clauses in contracts about this very issue...  

+1 each person here is doing his best for IOTA, in a way or another. it is unfair to judge without clear parameters. we do not need this.

[ImI]

The idea behind a no premine is great.

But things can change along the way, no big deal imo.


Lets just do a 5% premine, no hastle everybody donates the same, small or big holder. It is in everybodies best interest.

I think it also will have a positive effect, since it will mean moving forward.


We are all part of this great project. I think if more that 50% wants a premine, lets do it and move on.

Yes, I definitely agree with you

If we can a solution where the users could vote, that would be the most ideal solution.
I expect most would chose the 5% premine, including myself.
If everyone can vote with his stake it would be a great solution.

In that case IOTA would start with a horrible PR disaster, comparable with the accidental Darkcoin instamine that still clings to Dash and its developer. Dont underestimate the turmoil that this would cause, even if 90% would agree.

On the other hand, if 90% agree it should be no problem at all to reach 5% and i am convinced it will be no problem as soon as we have a release and everybody is on the same page.

[acdc]

Guys, there are no free riders. Those who have IOTA tokens BOUGHT THEM. There was no talk about "continued future financial support" at the time. There are usually clauses in contracts about this very issue...  

Yes, people purchased the software, which is almost done. That's the end of our sales agreement.

but everyone paid different amounts for the same software. what was proportional to our payments was the IOTA token

if you take IOTA to corporations what happens with the IOTA token? will that become worthless as you intend to fork the code and issue a new token?

if you did that I'd say your reputation in crypto would end your career

[bubbletea789]

so despite all the controversy around my recent post, let's be blunt and clear, this is beta plan (aka back up plan when we as a community fail to establish a properly funded foundation).

1)iota 1.0 is launched. software prepurchased is delivered as promised. done deal to those who whine that they paid for this, certainly we all did.

2)those who wish (and have already done so by donating more than 5% or have not made a claim but wish to 5% of their claimable allocated to the foundation) to form a well funded foundation with the current vision for IOTA project that cfb and David are seeing, please stand up.

3)Regarding those who have purchases iotas on the secondary market, i believe that we can have them transferred over at no tax (or we would refuse their generosity). So the above mentioned filter will only be applicable to genesis iota claimers.

4)we will go to iota 1.1 (or better 2.0) together.

5)those who wish to go the other way of a directionless project, go ahead with their bags.

do not flame me for saying this, i am just being blunt trying to make it crystal clear and offering a way out for everyone.

tl,dr; I am not threatening any single one, everyone is free to voice their opinions and if a large enough number of people agree with an idea, we will have "the main chain" : )

so be generous and worry not of the freerider problem, but do what we think is right and best for IOTA project then people with the same goal can always sort it out together.

Stay cool,