[ANN][DCR] Decred - Community Governance | Bitcoin Devs | Lightning Network

[EmilioMann]

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I thought the devs started staking from day one, and there wasn't any stake pool software available for quite some time, and they were staking the premine, so they basically collected all staking rewards for the first six or twelve months. I didn't mean literally compound, just that the premine was 10% and they staked it, partially during a time when very few others and no one with as large a bag was, resulting in it now being significantly more than 10% of the total supply. They don't show that in the pie chart breakdown, but I think the premine effectively extends into a not insignificant portion of the staking rewards pie slice.

The POS started from a specific block. All have been notified about the block number since day 1.
This is easily verified in blockexplorer. The tickets are all registered there.

[jwinterm]

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I thought the devs started staking from day one, and there wasn't any stake pool software available for quite some time, and they were staking the premine, so they basically collected all staking rewards for the first six or twelve months. I didn't mean literally compound, just that the premine was 10% and they staked it, partially during a time when very few others and no one with as large a bag was, resulting in it now being significantly more than 10% of the total supply. They don't show that in the pie chart breakdown, but I think the premine effectively extends into a not insignificant portion of the staking rewards pie slice.

The POS started from a specific block. All have been notified about the block number since day 1.
This is easily verified in blockexplorer. The tickets are all registered there.

Ok. So the devs started staking the premine from that block, which was well in advance of the introduction of stake pool software, correct?

Look, I'm not trying to say Decred is a scam, please don't lump me in with gembitz. I'm just saying that a governance system that allows very large holders to push changes through maybe isn't the best way. Maybe it would take the devs, placeholder, bittrex, Poloniex, and Coinbase custody to push something thru, not just devs and placeholder, but there is some small set that exists today, whether it's two or ten entities. If Bitcoin used this system then Barry Silbert would have activated segwit2x in like thirty seconds, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Apparently the market as a whole is skeptical as well that Decred is "bitcoin upgraded" considering it's price versus BTC has dropped by over 50% in the last six months.

Again, please don't lump me in with gembitz. It's basically the worst thing you could do to someone

But if you give me free coins of course I reserve the right to come here and talk shit about them.

[opmules]

Ok. So the devs started staking the premine from that block, which was well in advance of the introduction of stake pool software, correct?

This is totally inaccurate.  The stake pool software is not required to vote or stake.  It's a third party service which allows users to leave their wallet offline and have a third party relay their vote for them when a ticket gets chosen. Everybody could vote and stake from the beginning,  only by running an online wallet.  Which was available before block 1 even existed.  I know for a fact because I'm not a dev and I did it pretty easily...

[jwinterm]

What exactly was inaccurate in what I said? I would guess most users that received the airdrop don't have a computer on 24 hours a day with a high reliability internet connection. There's a big spike up in ticket price visible on the all time chart here https://dcrstats.com/ around early 2017 followed by a slight change in slope upwards which would be my guess as to when the stake pool software was released allowing broader participation.

[opmules]

What exactly was inaccurate in what I said? I would guess most users that received the airdrop don't have a computer on 24 hours a day with a high reliability internet connection. There's a big spike up in ticket price visible on the all time chart here https://dcrstats.com/ around early 2017 followed by a slight change in slope upwards which would be my guess as to when the stake pool software was released allowing broader participation.

It's inaccurate to say that devs were the only one able to stake from the start, a basic dsl connection worked just fine. But sure you needed a PC.  I'm not sure which big spike you are referring to but the switch to a more steady slope correspond to the activation of the first change in consensus rules voted to switch the ticket pricing algorithm, (sdiffalgorithm )  which was known for having crazy oscillation. In fact you can see pretty clearly on that chart  that if you remove the spikes caused by that algorithm early on,  the mean price is a pretty linear slope since voting started. You can find the details on the initial algorithm and the proposed change here: https://github.com/decred/dcps/blob/master/dcp-0001/dcp-0001.mediawiki

[jwinterm]

You're putting words in my mouth.

[opmules]

No you can do it yourself....

I thought the devs started staking from day one, and there wasn't any stake pool software available for quite some time, and they were staking the premine, so they basically collected all staking rewards for the first six or twelve months.

Your argument is basically that nobody but the devs could mine Bitcoin until late 2010, because the was no mining pool.  But all you needed was an online PC and internet access,  just like with Decred.

Anyway,  I guess  you don't really care about any of this,  so I'm out..

[jwinterm]

No you can do it yourself....

I thought the devs started staking from day one, and there wasn't any stake pool software available for quite some time, and they were staking the premine, so they basically collected all staking rewards for the first six or twelve months.

Your argument is basically that nobody but the devs could mine Bitcoin until late 2010, because the was no mining pool.  But all you needed was an online PC and internet access,  just like with Decred.

Anyway,  I guess  you don't really care about any of this,  so I'm out..

Ok, I was wrong about day one, however they still had a substantial advantage over miners and airdrop receivers by staking the premine from the first available opportunity, at a time when most people without vps wouldn't bother to stake.

My argument is more like Satoshi had a significant advantage over other miners because of the 10% premine he had (or course not) taken.

Anyways, I more think the governance structure kind of sucks regardless of the premine.

[DrBeer]

The claim to the voting system is not entirely clear. Look at the distribution of DCR coins by wallets - “small” holders can, and without any difficulties, create a group of votes that will easily lead the vote in their favor.

[gembitz]

LOL the fudders decided to make a coordinated attack.
As has been said a thousand times before, but gembitz e jwinterm ignore, the premine was distributed via airdrop to the community and the other half was not for "the developers" but for the "development fund", which is also used to pay marketing, designers, events, etc.

About the vote, you must also have more than 60% of your total votes for your proposal to be validated.
You may have the most votes "yes", but if many of the other people clicked "no" on your proposal, you will need more votes to reach 60% of the total (yes+no).

LOL the paid pumpers GOGOGOOOO!! when phishing airdrop 2.0??

[IncludeBeer]

The claim to the voting system is not entirely clear. Look at the distribution of DCR coins by wallets - “small” holders can, and without any difficulties, create a group of votes that will easily lead the vote in their favor.

Not sure what you mean..."small" holders still must lock their DCR for tickets. Only tickets vote, and the price of tickets is tightly associated with how many are currently "live" on the network.
It is not the case that people can "create a group of votes that will easily lead the vote in their favor" without putting in the requisite funds to buy the tickets first.
Skin in the game is what counts here. Smaller holders have less skin in, thus cannot sway results as described.

[gembitz]

What exactly was inaccurate in what I said? I would guess most users that received the airdrop don't have a computer on 24 hours a day with a high reliability internet connection. There's a big spike up in ticket price visible on the all time chart here https://dcrstats.com/ around early 2017 followed by a slight change in slope upwards which would be my guess as to when the stake pool software was released allowing broader participation.

It's inaccurate to say that devs were the only one able to stake from the start, a basic dsl connection worked just fine. But sure you needed a PC.  I'm not sure which big spike you are referring to but the switch to a more steady slope correspond to the activation of the first change in consensus rules voted to switch the ticket pricing algorithm, (sdiffalgorithm )  which was known for having crazy oscillation. In fact you can see pretty clearly on that chart  that if you remove the spikes caused by that algorithm early on,  the mean price is a pretty linear slope since voting started. You can find the details on the initial algorithm and the proposed change here: https://github.com/decred/dcps/blob/master/dcp-0001/dcp-0001.mediawiki

these "devs" have their heads so far up their own asses that they couldn't even spent 5 minutes to show me how to generate a seed to receive my airdrop coins, now what makes you think they would allow control of the majority of voting power to anyone but themselves and bittrex/poloniex exchange insider overlords..stop and think :\ pfft meh ego gets rekt

===> censorship is key to control this dialog.

[EmilioMann]

If you received the confirmation email, then you already had your seed.
It appeared in the first few steps when you typed the commands into the terminal.
Probably, you didn't read everything and deleted them.
Once deleted it is impossible to recover them and it was written there.
Again: If you have reached the confirmation email, then you received  your seed before together with the wallet address but you didn't see
The fault of having lost is your that did not read all the text that received in the terminal.
Do you want me to draw a picture for you to understand easier?

[jwinterm]

Putting aside the details of devs staking the premine and vote losers still being able to fork away, this was my main point in the previous page:

If Bitcoin used this system then Barry Silbert would have activated segwit2x in like thirty seconds, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Apparently the market as a whole is skeptical as well that Decred is "bitcoin upgraded" considering it's price versus BTC has dropped by over 50% in the last six months. 

I just don't think the market as a whole considers any "governance" structure as better, whether it's the eth benevolent dictator model, Monero's technocratic approach, Decred richest holders decide, or anything else. Yes, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, but I think the market tends towards the best choice, and looking at a time period of 3-5 years now that choice is clearly bitcoin.

[IncludeBeer]

Putting aside the details of devs staking the premine and vote losers still being able to fork away, this was my main point in the previous page:

If Bitcoin used this system then Barry Silbert would have activated segwit2x in like thirty seconds, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Apparently the market as a whole is skeptical as well that Decred is "bitcoin upgraded" considering it's price versus BTC has dropped by over 50% in the last six months. 

I just don't think the market as a whole considers any "governance" structure as better, whether it's the eth benevolent dictator model, Monero's technocratic approach, Decred richest holders decide, or anything else. Yes, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, but I think the market tends towards the best choice, and looking at a time period of 3-5 years now that choice is clearly bitcoin.

True enough, historically! I expect sentiments will shift after Politeia's value is demonstrated a few times over sufficiently 'difficult' or 'controversial' decisions need to be made. Plus, once the Treasury (dev fund) is truly decentralized, and solely ticket holders have the power of releasing those funds, well that will be something special I think. IMO, the self-sustaining feature on this SoV coin will prove itself to be highly-valuable in the years to come.

[fredine]

Putting aside the details of devs staking the premine and vote losers still being able to fork away, this was my main point in the previous page:

If Bitcoin used this system then Barry Silbert would have activated segwit2x in like thirty seconds, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Apparently the market as a whole is skeptical as well that Decred is "bitcoin upgraded" considering it's price versus BTC has dropped by over 50% in the last six months. 

I just don't think the market as a whole considers any "governance" structure as better, whether it's the eth benevolent dictator model, Monero's technocratic approach, Decred richest holders decide, or anything else. Yes, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, but I think the market tends towards the best choice, and looking at a time period of 3-5 years now that choice is clearly bitcoin.

Yeah I agree with you, bitcoin is cleary #1 choice but Decred will be #2 SoV coin considering its potential.

[Wind_FURY]

LOL the fudders decided to make a coordinated attack.
As has been said a thousand times before, but gembitz e jwinterm ignore, the premine was distributed via airdrop to the community and the other half was not for "the developers" but for the "development fund", which is also used to pay marketing, designers, events, etc.

About the vote, you must also have more than 60% of your total votes for your proposal to be validated.
You may have the most votes "yes", but if many of the other people clicked "no" on your proposal, you will need more votes to reach 60% of the total (yes+no).

Please don't do that. Taking the easy way out of the debate by shouting "FUD". Remember, that in Decred, changes/new features that were voted, and hard forked in the network, cannot simply be changed back to the state it was in before.

I believe when Decred becomes large enough, it will also go through the same problems that Bitcoin did, like the "scaling debate".

[gembitz]

If you received the confirmation email, then you already had your seed.
It appeared in the first few steps when you typed the commands into the terminal.
Probably, you didn't read everything and deleted them.
Once deleted it is impossible to recover them and it was written there.
Again: If you have reached the confirmation email, then you received  your seed before together with the wallet address but you didn't see
The fault of having lost is your that did not read all the text that received in the terminal.
Do you want me to draw a picture for you to understand easier?

bullshit , i asked for help when i received my confirmation email...read back many posts i was "accepted" for the airdrop ...nows wheres my fucking coins?
fair voting??    my lord you must be on crack!!

i must be here just to entertain you? ...hmmm

Putting aside the details of devs staking the premine and vote losers still being able to fork away, this was my main point in the previous page:

If Bitcoin used this system then Barry Silbert would have activated segwit2x in like thirty seconds, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. Apparently the market as a whole is skeptical as well that Decred is "bitcoin upgraded" considering it's price versus BTC has dropped by over 50% in the last six months. 

I just don't think the market as a whole considers any "governance" structure as better, whether it's the eth benevolent dictator model, Monero's technocratic approach, Decred richest holders decide, or anything else. Yes, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, but I think the market tends towards the best choice, and looking at a time period of 3-5 years now that choice is clearly bitcoin.

True enough, historically! I expect sentiments will shift after Politeia's value is demonstrated a few times over sufficiently 'difficult' or 'controversial' decisions need to be made. Plus, once the Treasury (dev fund) is truly decentralized, and solely ticket holders have the power of releasing those funds, well that will be something special I think. IMO, the self-sustaining feature on this SoV coin will prove itself to be highly-valuable in the years to come.

dev fund will become "legal defense fund" wait for it.

[IncludeBeer]

Treasury outputs will be programmatically granted by ticket holders, such that contractors are paid for the work they perform.
Take a look at the several existing examples of this happening through Politeia. The DEX alone is a significant effort that got approved by voters, with significant funds being released to pay for that work. The only difference now is Treasury payments are still submitted to the chain by a Company 0 person (if and after being approved through Politeia).

Can't stop the Decred train!
Choo Choo motherfuckers!  

Edit:

In August the Treasury received 15,278 DCR and spent 8,223 DCR. Using August’s daily average DCR/USD rate of $26.23, this is $401K received and $216K spent. As these payments were for work completed in July, it is also informative to consider them in the context of the July average daily rate of $28.97 — in which case the USD spent figure is $238K. As of Aug 9, Treasury balance is 638K DCR (15.8 million USD at $24.80).

Sauce: https://medium.com/decred/decred-journal-august-2019-43626ee68ff

[gembitz]

Can't stop the Decred train!
Choo Choo motherfuckers!  

 

you really need to steal my one liners too? :\ hmmm