What's wrong with Betcoin.ag? Here's a list.

[TwitchySeal]

Unresolved Issues Ignored By Betcoin

• Rake Increase, Without Warning or Reasonable Notice
  Betcoin decided the solution for their "accidental rake increase" was to intentionally raise their rake - Unfortunately for the players, they raised it without notice and made no attempt to alert the players who would be affected the most.  The increase included removing the cap from heads up games, meaning a high stakes HU player could unknowingly be paying 800+ times more rake per session than the previous structure.. Here's a chart comparing rake before and after.
   
  
• Bad Beat Jackpot
  Between December, 2013 and August, 2015 they an extra .01 mbtc was taken from every qualifying pot for a jackpot that didn't exist.  Over 12 Bitcoins were collected during this time.  They told players who asked that nothing was being taken and ignored those who presented proof that it was. There is lots of blatant lying by staff, primarily Betcoin Paul.  August 3rd they put up incomplete terms for the jackpot and pretended they had been there all along.
   
  
• Dealing with Cheaters
  When cheaters are caught colluding or multi-accounting they are permitted to continue playing on the site.  They have admitted to using confiscated funds for various things other than refunding victims.
  
  
• They ran a 10 bitcoin "no collusion" freeroll (See announcement HERE), inspired by a group of recent cashgame colluders.  They ended up ALLOWING THE CHEATERS TO PLAY IN THE FREEROLL  (Betcoin Jessica later lied about this)
  
  
• When they found out a player was DoS attacking another player with the intent to extort them, they suggested he apologize and then ignored the issue. Betcoin thread with all the details:[LINK]   Screen shot of Support ticket:[LINK]
   
  
• Claiming their "parent company" overlaps with  BetCris and Winning Poker Network to gain trust from the community.  However have since refused all requests for them to clarify.  WPN has comfirmed that they "only provide tournaments, that's it"
   
  
• Betcoin player emails and login details were used in multiple phishing attacks beginning Jan 2015
  Most or all Betcoin users received identical phishing attempt emails which included exact login name (seperate from screen name) which looked like it was from Betcoin support.  Betcoin refuses to accept responsibility for allowing player account information to get into the hands of criminals.  Since then multiple scam attempts have been attempted on email addresses which were used only to register Betcoin accounts. Examples of 2 of these emails can be seen HERE[/color]
  
  
• Betcoin was caught paying for good reviews in their own thread on BTCTalk.  Complete transcript/Screen Shot of Support offering a player a reward in exchange for saying why he liked Betcoin,and posting it exactly where he was told, after Managment approved the post can be found HERE Staff later joked about it claiming they "thought it was common sense" for them to pay players for good reviews.  The next day they held a promotion offering free tournament entries to the 10 best 3 sentence reviews.
  
  
  
  Issues Betcoin has Acknowledged
  
  
  
• Missing VIP Rewards
  Rakeback and other VIP rewards are underpaid but extremely difficult to prove due to lack of financial records.  Players who complain are offered compensation privately.  Players who do not agree to stay quiet are not compensated and simply ignored.  I estimate they owe me over 3 Bitcoin in unpaid WPN Rakeback.  This is the most boring, but it's proof they owe me money.
  Update:  After six months of ignoring or denying the issue, Betcoin has compensated me 3 Bitcoin and 6,000 status points. More Details [LINK]
  No attempt has been made to determine and compensate other players who didn't notic the missing funds.
  
  
• Taking Too Much Rake
  From 11/14 or earlier10/31 to 12/14 they raked cash games up to six times more than advertised.  They made a WEIRD STATEMENT after over a month, and have since ignored the issue and deletedANY QUESTIONS LIKE THIS (by dooglus)
  
  Update:  Betcoin addressed this situation on 3/3/16 [LINK] They admitted the rake cap was increased due to a technical issue and are now offering players the choice to have their account be reviewed to determine if/how much they were over charged  from 10/30/15-12/9/15 OR waive the review process and receive a Tournament entry worth 0.05 BTC  
  
  "If a player played at Betcoin Poker using the 100% rakeback promo, the player will technically owe funds to Betcoin.... If the player owes Betcoin funds, the player's account will be deducted those funds, however if the player chooses to accept a ticket in lieu of a review, the player will be awarded the ticket."
  
  This is a step in the right direction for sure, but it's disappointing that they seem only moderately apologetic for the actual glitch causing the rake increase, and no mention of why they allowed this to drag on for four months or any pledge to handle situations like this differently in the future
  
  I don't think their claim that players may "technically owe them" is valid considering the they failed to address the situation for over 4 months as well as the fact that they were aware of the issue on November 10th, and allowed it to continue for a month longer.  
  
  My response: [LINK]
  
  
  
  Betcoin Managment Caught in Blatant Lies
  
  
  
  
  • Betcoin can't ignore Dooglus, so they lie to him
    

    It's a little concerning that you don't appear to have replied to any of his posts here. He seems to be raising valid concerns, but you leave them unanswered.
    Did you really use 10 BTC confiscated from cheating players to fund a promotion instead of giving them back to the players they were stolen from? If so, how do you justify that?
    Did you really allow those same cheating players to them play in the freeroll funded with the money they stole, after claiming to have zero tolerance for cheating? That sounds pretty crazy if it's true.
    

    
    It seems Betcoin Jessica was unaware that Betcoin Andrew had already admitted they had let the cheaters play months ago HERE
    
    

    Hi Dooglus, it's because we did return most of the btc and we still ran a 10 btc freeroll to thank players for their support on top of returning funds.  This was many months ago and was handled expediently.  Ironically, most of the players were from a prop program which we no longer have, yet most of the players still play in.  
    No we did not allow those players to play in the tournament but as you may know a bitcoin gaming website creates some unique challenges which we embrace.  
    We have addressed all of this before and will happily address it again as we continue to move forward.  
    Thanks guys!
    Jessica

    
    

    After several emails with this player and banning the other accounts associated, we have let him play under a strict watchful eye. We believe in second chances at Betcoin and we are watching him and many other players very closely.

    
    
    
    
    
    
  • Betcoin lies about their own ticket system while attempting to discredit a player who claims they have many unanswered tickets.
    

    I still have ~ 3 dozen support tickets that date back as far as 9 months ago that are still open and unresolved and ~ 1 dozen of which have never even been replied to.
    

    Very interesting considering we haven't had the ticketing system anywhere close to 9 months.  What is your login name?  36 unresolved tickets over 9 months is definitely something we would like to see considering we only added the ticketing system 4-6 months ago.  Also, to note, unresolved tickets brought to our attention will be resolved, therefore just let us know your login name and we will have an immediate review.  
    

    
    I posted an email with a link to a ticket from last March proving they did, in fact, have the ticketing system then.
    
    

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Betcoin.ag [mailto:support@betcoin.ag]
    Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2015 5:02 PM
    To:XXXXXXXXXXX
    Subject: Ticket #10059: My Affiliate
    
    ---- Reply above this line ----
    
    twitchyseal,
    
    Thank you for contacting us. This is an automated response confirming the receipt of your ticket. We usually respond to emails within a few hours, however, sometimes it can take up to 24 hours to get a response. When replying to future responses, please make sure that the Ticket ID is kept in the email subject so that we can track your replies.
    
    If you have an account you can view your ticket at:
    https://www.betcoin.ag/ticket/10059

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Betcoin Shill Accounts[/center]
    Shill accounts operated by the same person - Noobtc and ftwbtc1
    (Both accounts are likely run by whoever runs the Betcoin.ag account imo)
    
    
  On Bitcoin talk Noobtc posts this comment:

  In retrospect, don't slow play those Kings!  __ACTl0NNNN is lucky SillySausage didn't have more on the table!

  
  
  

  Within 10 minutes ftwbtc post the following on the Betcoin.ag forum:

  
  https://www.betcoin.ag/actl0nnnn-loses-king-quads-royal-flush-bad-beat-poker-hand#comment-52948
  
  
  Interacting with themself:
  
  

  I just signed up at Betcoin and then saw this thread.  After reading through it and the attacks to the poster.  Are you an employee of Betcoin?  How do I get reassigned to you?  
  

  
  I don't believe you can change your affiliate once you have one or get reassigned.  There is a lot of trolling going on in here so who knows when Xiaoxiao will be back.  
  

  
  Posting as a new signup last week, and a long time user over a year earlier...
  
  

  Just getting started at Betcoin and really enjoying it.  Is there a way to change your affiliate?  Does anybody know.  I did some great research before signing up and tried many different sites.  I can see why people like twitchyseal and a few other people are so passionate about wanting to improve Betcoin, because it really is a fun place to play.  Twitchy's tactics are completely ineffective though and they come off as spamming trolls IMO.  Great value in the VIP at Betcoin, maybe the best online, 24/7 live customer service, great casino, dice, sports.  Betcoin gets my vote for best all around bitcoin gaming destination.  Keep up the good work and let the trolls be trolls.  
  

  
  
  Over 1 year earlier....
  
  
  

  I have been playing with Betcoin since 2013 and have seen these guys make a lot of changes and improvements.  I have experienced instant withdrawals for many months now, can't remember when it first started, but I have noticed I get the instant withdrawals when I use a bitcoin address that I have used before.  Keep up the good work guys.  You really do have a great thing going.  
  

  
  
  Attacking me 2 months ago as ftwbtc, and again as noobtc last week...
  
  

  
  Also, I just had to comment on these twitchyseal postings because they are quite fascinating.  On the one hand he claims Betcoin is a fraud but on the other he is dying to get back onto the site and play!  If it's really a fraud why does he want to play on Betcoin so bad?  Lol, I have never seen anything like this before.  Perhaps by banning him you are doing a good deed in keeping away from his perceived fraud!  
  
  Get the table starter going again!  Thanks.
  
  I know you want back in because nobody in their right mind would waste this much time spamming unless they wanted to get back involved.  Perhaps you have friends you want to talk to there or miss playing the tournaments or whatever else you did there.  I can personally say that in chat I have seen people talk about you in a positive light and even seen a discussion led by Betcoin staff member asking how to bring you back in.  Examining these communications, they probably would welcome you back, but fear that you would spam their forum as much as you spam here.  Plus, if you don't intend to play there, why does it matter if you are banned or not? Personally, I am indifferent I see some good in the things you have mentioned but a lot of bad in your approach.  It definitely makes sense to me why you are banned.  
  
  EDIT:  By the way, I have said many times that I would stop commenting on this topic, but quite frankly I am fascinated.  Perhaps I can mediate this matter.  
  

  
  
  

  Just getting started at Betcoin and really enjoying it.  Is there a way to change your affiliate?  Does anybody know.  I did some great research before signing up and tried many different sites.  I can see why people like twitchyseal and a few other people are so passionate about wanting to improve Betcoin, because it really is a fun place to play.  Twitchy's tactics are completely ineffective though and they come off as spamming trolls IMO.  Great value in the VIP at Betcoin, maybe the best online, 24/7 live customer service, great casino, dice, sports.  Betcoin gets my vote for best all around bitcoin gaming destination.  Keep up the good work and let the trolls be trolls.  
  
  

  TwitchySeal you need to either get back into Betcoin, I am not sure what you did, but you mention that you have been banned in another thread or you need to get some serious help man. I am not trying to be rude or anything but as a casual observer you look and write like an obsessed maniac.  I actually feel sorry for you man.  On another note, I really do enjoy playing at Betcoin, it truly is the best all around bitcoin gaming destination.  
  

  
  

  
  Post from a while ago pointing out all evidence that suggests ftwbtc is a shill.
  
  
  

  There is some great value in the following games today and wanted to share.  I have been sharing a lock each day the last three days and will continue to do so.

  
  ftwbtc, I noticed you posted the same thing on Betcoins forum, which is interesting because when I check your profile it says you registered just this month and still a Bronze 3.
  
  
  
  However, on this forum you have
  
  

  • Claimed to have played on Betcoin since 2013
  • Said you were active within the Betcoin community
  • Said you were Gold Status over 6 months ago
  • Called Bullshit on another player for not wanting to share his own screen name
  • Asked me directly what my screen name was
  • Made over 100 posts that make you seem more like a shill than not - all for Betcoin
  • Told several blatant lies to defend Betcoin then acted as if it never happened by ignoring any reference to it (Sound familiar "BetcoinJessica" ?

  
  So whats up with posting on Betcoin from a brand new account?
  
  Here's some evidence, as usual, to back up my claims - starting back in Summer 2014...
  
  
  

  Really enjoy playing here and keep up the great work.  I particularly like the sng's especially the Hyper Turbo Heads Up.  There are always a few open and when I sit down the game is filled within 2 minutes.  
  

  
  

  I have been playing at Betcoin for awhile and I have seen them continue to improve and work very hard.  I have also been fortunate to place in a wide variety of tournaments with big GTD's.  I am still trying to win my seat into the million dollar GTD, but it has truly been a great experience that continues to get better.  Really appreciate the opportunity to play here guys.  Keep up the good work.  
  

  
  
  

  I have been playing on Betcoin for quite some time and have achieved Gold I status. I really appreciate and enjoy the VIP program and have seen it grow tremendously.  I play at other websites too, but Betcoin is my main website because of the rewards, constant improvements and community feel.  Also, you guys talk about odds straight up, but a Master level at Betcoin would nearly eliminate all house edge throughout the entire website in sports wagering, casino wagering and provide a substantial rakeback for poker play.  I will achieve this and report my findings back.  I am a winning player overall, but I also enjoy the fact that I am building a profile that also has value and they keep rewarding with more perks and bonuses.  
  

  
  

  I personally hate to see people waste time, but I guess the same could be said about me responding to you though I don't nearly spend as much time as you.  
  
  What is your goal with all of this?  What is your player name on Betcoin?
  

  
  

  Other people have posted about the same issue but you have chosen to ignore  it.
  

  
  I just checked their website Betcoin.ag and it shows over 300 people online.  What people do you speak of?
  

  
  

  Yes, Betcoin is very safe, I have been playing here for two years and have seen people like you make these claims without a username or substantiation only to disappear.  I have never had a problem with Betcoin and have played quite a bit.  The support is superior and they continue to provide even better opportunities everyday for us players.  They would never cheat you out of $4.  This is ridiculously absurd.  

  
  

  As for darkdays, I really don't read every post, they are too long and in the Betcoin community there is a lot more going on in there with staking, loans, sports talk, poker talk and more. I enjoy the time in there.  
  

  
  
  
  Other Stuff
  
  Poker Fraud Alert Thread
  
  Poker Fraud Alert Podcast
  (Time Stamp State When I have time, segment "Colluding, customer service coverups alleged at bitcoin poker room "Betcoin" ")
  
  Todd Witteles on Betcoin
  Witteles was a victim of the Absolute Poker/Ultimatebet "Superuser" cheating scandal. He and several other online players took part in uncovering and proving the cheating. This attracted enough media attention to where it became the subject of a story on the TV news program "60 Minutes", where Witteles was featured. The episode aired on November 30, 2008.[6] Witteles appeared on the front page of The Washington Post about the same matter.[7] On December 16, 2009, he appeared on CNBC to discuss the cheating.
  
  
  

  It also appears that they engage in an evasive and passive-aggressive customer service model, where they first ignore problems, then attempt to cover them up as much as they can behind the scenes, and then ban anyone who continues to question them.

Owner of poker affiliate website ProfessionalRakeback.com, shares his experience with Betcoin on Pokerfraudalert.com:

[edmundduke]

I was aware about some of the points you mentioned (i used to play there a bit) but some issues are new to me. I havent really had issues with support (then again i havent played there enough to really need support). I am aware of the rake incident, i stopped playing after i learned about it.

[TwitchySeal]

Added rakeback (but not rake increase) issue.

I was aware about some of the points you mentioned (i used to play there a bit) but some issues are new to me. I havent really had issues with support (then again i havent played there enough to really need support). I am aware of the rake incident, i stopped playing after i learned about it.

[acquafredda]

I hope you will get a reply because you gave a lot of evidence to support your accusations. They should reply you here so that everyone can read what they will answer you. If they ever will.
Thanks anyway for this thread, too many bad examples around.

[DrogansonAlt]

People need to see this.

[TwitchySeal]

UPDATES:

Been slacking on updating this thread, still plenty more to add (including evidence of unethical behavior while attempting to cover up most of whats in this post against Betcoin Mod/Site Pro plo8monster as well as Betcoins biggest poker affiliate Xiaoxiao

• Just updated the Over-rake period.  Untill recently the earliest hand history available of over raked pot was 11/14.  I can confirm now Betcoin was was NOT over raking pots on 10/30.  They WERE over raking pots beginning just after midnight UTC on 10/31.  New timeframe for over rake is 10/31-12/14.
[/b]

• Also added the issue involving user account details getting into the hands of criminals.

Update: Early January, most or all Betcoin users receive identical phishing attempt emails which appear to be from Betcoin support.  Betcoin refuses to accept responsibility for allowing player account information to get into the hands of criminals.  Since then multiple scam attempts have been attempted on email addresses which were use only to register Betcoin accounts. Examples of 2 of these emails can be seen HERE

[wwwin]

UPDATES:

Been slacking on updating this thread, still plenty more to add (including evidence of unethical behavior while attempting to cover up most of whats in this post against Betcoin Mod/Site Pro plo8monster as well as Betcoins biggest poker affiliate Xiaoxiao

• Just updated the Over-rake period.  Untill recently the earliest hand history available of over raked pot was 11/14.  I can confirm now Betcoin was was NOT over raking pots on 10/30.  They WERE over raking pots beginning just after midnight UTC on 10/31.  New timeframe for over rake is 10/31-12/14.
[/b]

• Also added the issue involving user account details getting into the hands of criminals.

Update: Early January, most or all Betcoin users receive identical phishing attempt emails which appear to be from Betcoin support.  Betcoin refuses to accept responsibility for allowing player account information to get into the hands of criminals.  Since then multiple scam attempts have been attempted on email addresses which were use only to register Betcoin accounts. Examples of 2 of these emails can be seen HERE

Is that no more  or  less the time that they increased rake but the announcement was hidden amongst other stuff?

[TwitchySeal]

UPDATES:

Been slacking on updating this thread, still plenty more to add (including evidence of unethical behavior while attempting to cover up most of whats in this post against Betcoin Mod/Site Pro plo8monster as well as Betcoins biggest poker affiliate Xiaoxiao

• Just updated the Over-rake period.  Untill recently the earliest hand history available of over raked pot was 11/14.  I can confirm now Betcoin was was NOT over raking pots on 10/30.  They WERE over raking pots beginning just after midnight UTC on 10/31.  New timeframe for over rake is 10/31-12/14.
[/b]

• Also added the issue involving user account details getting into the hands of criminals.

Update: Early January, most or all Betcoin users receive identical phishing attempt emails which appear to be from Betcoin support.  Betcoin refuses to accept responsibility for allowing player account information to get into the hands of criminals.  Since then multiple scam attempts have been attempted on email addresses which were use only to register Betcoin accounts. Examples of 2 of these emails can be seen HERE

Is that no more  or  less the time that they increased rake but the announcement was hidden amongst other stuff?

I haven't even gotten into how messed up the way they officially increased their rake was.

I am pretty confident that they were over-raking from about 10/31 just after midnight till whenever they officially increased rake (12/9 or 12/10)

[NooBtc]

TwitchySeal you need to either get back into Betcoin, I am not sure what you did, but you mention that you have been banned in another thread or you need to get some serious help man. I am not trying to be rude or anything but as a casual observer you look and write like an obsessed maniac.  I actually feel sorry for you man.  On another note, I really do enjoy playing at Betcoin, it truly is the best all around bitcoin gaming destination. 

[debuni]

TwitchySeal you need to either get back into Betcoin, I am not sure what you did, but you mention that you have been banned in another thread or you need to get some serious help man. I am not trying to be rude or anything but as a casual observer you look and write like an obsessed maniac.  I actually feel sorry for you man.  On another note, I really do enjoy playing at Betcoin, it truly is the best all around bitcoin gaming destination. 

Obsessed or not, we need an explanation from Betcoin.AG.
They 100% overraked player and deleted douglas message, so for me most of the written is true. Until otherwise proven.

[TwitchySeal]

I expect many more obvious shills like this one to attempt to discredit me.

They can't think of any way to defend betcoins actions so they just try to convince others that I'm just a crazy troll.

I'd be happy to address anyone who has questions about or disagrees with anything specific I've said.

I don't expect the "Betcoin is good, twitchyseal is an idiot troll" users to stop anytime soon though. 

TwitchySeal you need to either get back into Betcoin, I am not sure what you did, but you mention that you have been banned in another thread or you need to get some serious help man. I am not trying to be rude or anything but as a casual observer you look and write like an obsessed maniac.  I actually feel sorry for you man.  On another note, I really do enjoy playing at Betcoin, it truly is the best all around bitcoin gaming destination. 

[TwitchySeal]

Obsessed or not, we need an explanation from Betcoin.AG.
They 100% overraked player and deleted douglas message, so for me most of the written is true. Until otherwise proven.

Betcoin Jessica basically telling the regular who first discovered over rake to fuck off:

(Read from bottom to top)

[DarkDays]

To add to this: Betcoin's servers either got hacked or someone on the inside leaked sensitive personal customer data.  Betcoin customers have been receiving spam emails containing downloads with keyloggers and trojans attached.  Betcoin said nothing but mandated a global password change.  It's clear that their databases were compromised as the emails contained player's correct Betcoin usernames attached to their email address...something that only someone with access to Betcoin's private data could know.  People have received these phishing emails for a month now...I've received three personally, I know others who have claimed to have received five.

[yahoo62278]

Im pretty shocked that this thread has been here almost a month and not 1 betcoin rep has tried to come in a protect their site?? That to me smells fishy in itself

[DarkDays]

Im pretty shocked that this thread has been here almost a month and not 1 betcoin rep has tried to come in a protect their site?? That to me smells fishy in itself

It's even worse.  When these issues were first brought to light last year Betcoin completely left BCT for a month.  No posts, no log ins, nobody to keep up with their three Betcoin-created threads.  Because they didn't want to answer questions like "why did you steal all this money" and "why aren't you giving it back?"  After about a month they showed back up to bump their threads with old promos and just pretended like nothing ever happened.  Like a child would do.

I've seen this happen many times with poker sites.  Inexperienced people start a site, problems crop up, they don't know how to deal with them, they run.  If they start talking about "withdraw delays"...don't walk, run.

[asuryan180]

I think that there might have been some real life legal issues with their casino.Though,i wouldnt be surprised if they were compromised or something similar cause we have enough scammer/hackers on BCT for that to happen.

problems crop up, they don't know how to deal with them, they run.  If they start talking about "withdraw delays"...don't walk, run.

But why are they running the campaign if they intend to run ?

[Bitinity]

Im pretty shocked that this thread has been here almost a month and not 1 betcoin rep has tried to come in a protect their site?? That to me smells fishy in itself

Maybe they did not read this thread yet (but I doubt it tbh), has anyone linked this thread to their official thread?
Surprised as well that there is no one of their sign campaign members came to this thread. Usually, sign campaigners defends the site that they advertise..

[Xiaoxiao]

This will be my first and last post in this thread.

Regarding what Twitchy has posted; he's blown this thing out of proportion now, and a lot of his facts are wrong to begin with.  We've discussed this many times.  With that said, I admire Twitchy for trying to be a watchdog and his vigor, but his intentions now have become ego-driven.  

I had already admitted that Betcoin made a mistake due to their inexperience in poker room management (to their credit they are growing exponentially wiser as time goes on).  The reason Betcoin is not refunding people is because there is basically nothing to refund.  A lot of people were getting 100%+ rakeback so the higher the rake the more they gained.   You have to consider the amount paid back in VIP RB, 100% bonuses, 100% RB prop player programs, affiliate RB, tablestarter RB etc, all of which Twitchy failed to consider in his calculations.  A small percentage of players were effected negatively but it's so minute that it's barely noticeable which is why those people aren't complaining or don't care.  It's like would you camp outside of your local gas station demanding a 9/10 of a penny refund because you thought the price was $1.50/gallon and not $1.509/gallon.  This is similar to what Twitchy is doing right now.

Betcoin is not out for a "cash grab" or trying to steal; they have absolutely no incentive to do that.  They're owned/backed by WPN, one of the bigger poker networks out there.  

There's currently 67,000 members at Betcoin, and right now on a Tuesday morning, approx. 150-300 members are actively using the site as a means of work, entertainment, community and fellowship.  If they felt remotely close to the way Twitchy feels, they wouldn't be doing what they're doing.  Assuming 3/4 of those members are multi-accounts trying to take advantage of site promo's and bonuses, that leaves us with 15,000 genuine members. Not even 1% of the genuine Betcoin members feels the same way as Twitchy.

[TwitchySeal]

Betcoin banned me in November.  5 or 6 times I was unbanned for a few days, and then rebanned without explanation.

While ignoring me, they would tell players in public chat that I wasn't banned and was actually playing on Betcoin every day because of how much I loved Betcoin.

In private messages here, they told me they thanked me for all the new players I was helping bring to the site and said I deserved a bonus.

Right now it's been about a month since my account was disabled.

Here are all private messages received from Betcoin.ag

[TwitchySeal]

The reason Betcoin is not refunding people is because there is basically nothing to refund.  A lot of people were getting 100%+ rakeback so the higher the rake the more they gained.   You have to consider the amount paid back in VIP RB, 100% bonuses, 100% RB prop player programs, affiliate RB, tablestarter RB etc, all of which Twitchy failed to consider in his calculations.

Ok, show me your calculations then, I've asked you for them many times.  I doubt you or Betcoin has even bothered to calculate anything.

I had already admitted that Betcoin made a mistake due to their inexperience in poker room management (to their credit they are growing exponentially wiser as time goes on).  The reason Betcoin is not refunding people is because there is basically nothing to refund.  A lot of people were getting 100%+ rakeback so the higher the rake the more they gained.

This is far from reality.  Xiaoxiao has continually made derceptive comments like this and then refused to defend them in any way.

Betcoin has a table starter promotion offering 100% rakeback.  At MOST 2 players from any table are eligible, because of the requirements - there are often going to be 0 or 1 players receiving it.

Xiao has refused to comment on the fact that heads up cash tables are not eligible for this promotion and Betcoin was taking up to 4 extra mbtc every time a hand went to the flop.

At the mid to high stakes, I estimate Betcoin was taking around 280 mbtc per hour from 10/31 - 12/9.

(Easily 100+ hands per hour, seeing 70% of flops = 280 chips/hr per table in over charged rake)

I've proven the rake was collected wrong during this 5+ week period, this is Xiaos comment which he refuses to elaborate on:

Regarding everything else you've said.  No, I totally disagree with your claims.  The rake did go higher briefly but was corrected.  

A small percentage of players were effected negatively but it's so minute that it's barely noticeable which is why those people aren't complaining or don't care.

 
This is just not true.  Many players were unaware they were stolen from, and recently have been asking for a refund.

There have been talks of a boycott recently by a group of players.  Here is an example of Betcoin handled one of the highest volume regulars on the site.

(read from bottom to top)


Dooglus summed up a great point on Betcoins forum by asking this question.  Rather than responding to him, Betcoin deleted it.


The only thing I agree with is the fact that Betcoin probably didn't do this on purpose.  Nearly every issue I've brought up has been a result of their incompetence.  If they would simply admit their mistakes, and fix them - this wouldn't be what it is today.

[kotwica666]

So after a few months, explanation from serious casino is: "The losses were small and we still have a lot customers" + screenshot.  

[TwitchySeal]

For the record, Xiaoxiao also responded in a deceptive way to the BBJP issue.  To my knowledge, he has chosen not to respond to any other issues mentioned in OP.

The new rake structure works very well for me with the rakeback I get and my referrals now sending me some actual bitcoin that warrants spending some money to advertise for.  Also overall still far better than any fiat website.  Do you know if there are plans for any 10 btc freerolls?  Haven't seen that in awhile.  

I'm pretty sure there will be more freerolls!  Take care!

When they accidentally took 14 Bitcoin for the BBJP when it didn't actually exist, they used it for a freeroll instead of returning it to the players.(You can read about that here.)

Theyve admitted to using the money they confiscated from cheaters for a freeroll promotion instead of returning it to the victims.(you can read about that here)

Perhaps they will use the money that should be paid back directly to the players from taking too much rake for over a month.  

Its probably well over 10 BTC.

Maybe youll get a 20 BTC freeroll or more!

Based on my understanding the BBJ is currently active and will be paid out if hit. I will get back to you about the other links mentioned.  Please understand that English is a 2nd language to certain support members and there may have been misunderstandings.  As far as I know most of my players and personal friends are beyond satisfied with the Poker Room and the WPN Shared Tournaments.  I understand your frustration, but Betcoin does have the right to make changes to promotions.  I would suggest that you resolve your issues via live chat.  Thanks!

It's true, the current BBJP is active.  I find his reply deceptive since in this context, his comment could easily be taken as "This issue has been solved" by trusting yet uninformed players.  

In fact, his comment is essentially irrelevant since he fails to address the 14 Bitcoins stolen from players who a) Were told by support that nothing extra was being taken and b) had no chance at winning the BBJP since it didn't exist at the time.

[DarkDays]

 The reason Betcoin is not refunding people is because there is basically nothing to refund.  A lot of people were getting 100%+ rakeback so the higher the rake the more they gained.   You have to consider the amount paid back in VIP RB, 100% bonuses, 100% RB prop player programs, affiliate RB, tablestarter RB etc, all of which Twitchy failed to consider in his calculations.  A small percentage of players were effected negatively but it's so minute that it's barely noticeable which is why those people aren't complaining or don't care.  It's like would you camp outside of your local gas station demanding a 9/10 of a penny refund because you thought the price was $1.50/gallon and not $1.509/gallon.  This is similar to what Twitchy is doing right now.

Show proof of this please.  From my experience playing cash games very VERY few players (far under 10%) take advantage of the 100% RB prop player programs.  So either you are lying or you have access to sensitive information (affiliates can't see if a player is on a deposit bonus or other bonus', like TSR).

So now I'm really curious.  Does Betcoin give you access to private information on it's customers, including those that aren't under your affiliate, or are you lying to try to protect Betcoin while they steal money from their customers?  Also, I'm curious how much of the stolen money found it's way into your pockets? 

[TwitchySeal]

Seems they just awarded the BBJP after a hand that only had two players delt in which means it wasn't eligible.
they didn't

[TwitchySeal]

TwitchySeal you need to either get back into Betcoin, I am not sure what you did, but you mention that you have been banned in another thread or you need to get some serious help man. I am not trying to be rude or anything but as a casual observer you look and write like an obsessed maniac.  I actually feel sorry for you man.  On another note, I really do enjoy playing at Betcoin, it truly is the best all around bitcoin gaming destination. 

Noobtc is the same person as "ftwbtc"  Both accounts are likely run by whoever runs the Betcoin.ag account.

I think its likely that the person behind "NooBtc" is the same Betcoin.ag manager that goes by Betcoin Jessica and also posts using the account "ftwbtc" ( you can see some of the reasons i think hes a shill here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281850.msg13658462#msg13658462 )

Very similar passive aggressive attitude, language etc

Noobtc posts this comment here on bitcointalk.org within 10 minutes of ftwbtc posting his comment on Betcoin...

In retrospect, don't slow play those Kings!  __ACTl0NNNN is lucky SillySausage didn't have more on the table!

Interacting with themself:

I just signed up at Betcoin and then saw this thread.  After reading through it and the attacks to the poster.  Are you an employee of Betcoin?  How do I get reassigned to you?  

I don't believe you can change your affiliate once you have one or get reassigned.  There is a lot of trolling going on in here so who knows when Xiaoxiao will be back.  

Post from a while ago pointing out all evidence that suggests ftwbtc is a shill.

There is some great value in the following games today and wanted to share.  I have been sharing a lock each day the last three days and will continue to do so.

ftwbtc, I noticed you posted the same thing on Betcoins forum, which is interesting because when I check your profile it says you registered just this month and still a Bronze 3.



However, on this forum you have

• Claimed to have played on Betcoin since 2013
• Said you were active within the Betcoin community
• Said you were Gold Status over 6 months ago
• Called Bullshit on another player for not wanting to share his own screen name
• Asked me directly what my screen name was
• Made over 100 posts that make you seem more like a shill than not - all for Betcoin
• Told several blatant lies to defend Betcoin then acted as if it never happened by ignoring any reference to it (Sound familiar "BetcoinJessica" ?

So whats up with posting on Betcoin from a brand new account?

Here's some evidence, as usual, to back up my claims - starting back in Summer 2014...

Really enjoy playing here and keep up the great work.  I particularly like the sng's especially the Hyper Turbo Heads Up.  There are always a few open and when I sit down the game is filled within 2 minutes. 

I have been playing at Betcoin for awhile and I have seen them continue to improve and work very hard.  I have also been fortunate to place in a wide variety of tournaments with big GTD's.  I am still trying to win my seat into the million dollar GTD, but it has truly been a great experience that continues to get better.  Really appreciate the opportunity to play here guys.  Keep up the good work. 

I have been playing on Betcoin for quite some time and have achieved Gold I status.  I really appreciate and enjoy the VIP program and have seen it grow tremendously.  I play at other websites too, but Betcoin is my main website because of the rewards, constant improvements and community feel.  Also, you guys talk about odds straight up, but a Master level at Betcoin would nearly eliminate all house edge throughout the entire website in sports wagering, casino wagering and provide a substantial rakeback for poker play.  I will achieve this and report my findings back.  I am a winning player overall, but I also enjoy the fact that I am building a profile that also has value and they keep rewarding with more perks and bonuses. 

I personally hate to see people waste time, but I guess the same could be said about me responding to you though I don't nearly spend as much time as you. 

What is your goal with all of this?  What is your player name on Betcoin?

Other people have posted about the same issue but you have chosen to ignore  it.

I just checked their website Betcoin.ag and it shows over 300 people online.  What people do you speak of?

Yes, Betcoin is very safe, I have been playing here for two years and have seen people like you make these claims without a username or substantiation only to disappear.  I have never had a problem with Betcoin and have played quite a bit.  The support is superior and they continue to provide even better opportunities everyday for us players.  They would never cheat you out of $4.  This is ridiculously absurd. 

As for darkdays, I really don't read every post, they are too long and in the Betcoin community there is a lot more going on in there with staking, loans, sports talk, poker talk and more.  I enjoy the time in there. 

[DarkDays]

Noobtc is the same person as "ftwbtc"  Both accounts are likely run by whoever runs the Betcoin.ag account.

Good work.  Another piece of information is that "ftwbtc" posts "daily sports locks" on the Betcoin forums.  He claims to wager 2-10BTC per bet, yet refuses to show any slips and is still in the Bronze 3 tier (the lowest tier).

In the interest of full disclosure, I personally haven't seen anything that would lead me to conclusively say that Noobtc/ftwbtc = Bitcoin Jessica.  I'm not saying that that isn't the case or even that I wouldn't put it past them to run their own shill accounts but I think we need to be very careful to lay everything out with as many facts as we can find.  Also, speaking of "her" I found it odd that she signed her full name to a recent email (the one about the freeroll and password reset). 

[wwwin]

Is that why they paid out the JP and then realize the guy did not win it?? LOL

[wwwin]

$4K

[DarkDays]

Here's a new one.

On the forums this weekend, the player "Mentat" claims that he was a prop for a while and in fact received house funds to play poker with.  He also claims that he was refused a cashout for "around 30 coins" but that he received "nearly that amount over time to keep the games going".

So, it seems like Betcoin is paying their house players 30 coins, refusing cashouts, and not announcing that they employ (or the identity of) house players.  Sorry for no screenshots, I'm on the run and if nobody grabs them by the time I'm home I'll edit with them.

[TwitchySeal]

Here's a new one.

On the forums this weekend, the player "Mentat" claims that he was a prop for a while and in fact received house funds to play poker with.  He also claims that he was refused a cashout for "around 30 coins" but that he received "nearly that amount over time to keep the games going".

So, it seems like Betcoin is paying their house players 30 coins, refusing cashouts, and not announcing that they employ (or the identity of) house players.  Sorry for no screenshots, I'm on the run and if nobody grabs them by the time I'm home I'll edit with them.

I've been putting off the whole bot thing because its so hard to actually prove and most of the time when someone cries bot they are idiot fish - but that's what Mentats talking about.  

They used bots (and Mentat + a couple others) to keep action at the tables up until the day they started the 100% rakeback tablestarter promo.

He was getting 100% rakeback and basically just helped "start tables" by playing the bots heads up and short handed.  These were very Bots were very exploitable and never changed which resulted in some pretty insane bb/100

Someone gave me this document with info on all the different bot accounts, (Login name, Screen name, Account #, City etc...)  The easiest way to tell if you were playing a bot was to check and see if it registered on Jan 22 2015.

http://pastebin.com/UsfK4LTm

Personally, I don't have a problem with them putting losing bots out to keep the games going, its a lot different then the GTO bots that are a threatening holdem as we know it.  People would probably over react though (and they did anyway) So of course lying about it would be more convienient for Betcoin, so they did, without shame:





----

Edit, throwing in some proof of over rake:

Betcoin Overakes Capped Pots for almost over 600k hands.

^{spoiler alert, they keep it}

2/8/15 Edit: I now have hand histories of over raked pots going back to 10/31/15.  Hands before this appear to be capped properly.  I think we can conclude that the "mistake" happened around midnight UTC 10/30/15.

The Betcoin rake issue probably started off as an honest technical mistake on Betcoins part.  Any decent site would apologize immediately, figure out exactly how much they owed the players and pay them back in full plus little bit more to be sure they were made whole.


November 14th a couple players realized pots were being raked higher than the advertised cap and notified support right away. If Betcoin didn't know they were over raking pots before , they knew now.

Here is the earliest ahand posted from a 100 NL 6 max table.  
The advertised cap was 2 mbtc, they took 6 mbtc.

Code:

Game started at: 2015/11/14 17:53:36
Game ID: 10143163 0.50/1 Tokyo (Hold'em)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: luismelo4 (107.34).
Seat 2: Cognative (338.25).
Seat 3: BitBandit (215.22).
Seat 4: nukemecca (168.95).
Seat 9: ungod (29.84).
Player BitBandit has small blind (0.50)
Player nukemecca has big blind (1)
Player BitBandit received a card.
Player BitBandit received a card.
Player nukemecca received a card.
Player nukemecca received a card.
Player ungod received card: [Qc]
Player ungod received card: [3c]
Player luismelo4 received a card.
Player luismelo4 received a card.
Player Cognative received a card.
Player Cognative received a card.
Player ungod folds
Player luismelo4 folds
Player Cognative raises (3)
Player BitBandit calls (2.50)
Player nukemecca raises (6)
Player Cognative calls (4)
Player BitBandit calls (4)
*** FLOP ***: [9s 3d As]
Player BitBandit checks
Player nukemecca bets (10.23)
Player Cognative calls (10.23)
Player BitBandit calls (10.23)
*** TURN ***: [9s 3d As] [4s]
Player BitBandit checks
Player nukemecca bets (33.59)
Player Cognative calls (33.59)
Player BitBandit folds
*** RIVER ***: [9s 3d As 4s] [4d]
Player nukemecca bets (57.94)
Player Cognative allin (287.43)
Player nukemecca allin (60.19)
Uncalled bet (169.30) returned to Cognative
------ Summary ------
Pot: 349.12. Rake 6. JP fee 0.01
Board: [9s 3d As 4s 4d]
Player luismelo4 does not show cards.Bets: 0. Collects: 0. Wins: 0.
*Player Cognative shows: Full House (3/4) [3s 3h]. Bets: 168.95. Collects: 349.12. Wins: 180.17.
Player BitBandit does not show cards.Bets: 17.23. Collects: 0. Loses: 17.23.
Player nukemecca shows: Two pairs. As and 4s [Ac Ks]. Bets: 168.95. Collects: 0. Loses: 168.95.
Player ungod does not show cards.Bets: 0. Collects: 0. Wins: 0.
Game ended at: 2015/11/14 17:54:35

Update:  Earliest hand now 10/31 - 11/1
October 31 (EST):

Code:

[color=red]Winning Poker Network Game #9777237: No Limit Holdem ($0.50/$1) [2015/11/01 02:21:55 UTC]
Table: Tokyo
Seats: 9
Seat 3: g0tjohnd ($153.79)
Seat 4: TheDealer ($158.28)
Seat 5: ungod ($119.24)
Seat 6: Beachside ($86.09)
Seat 8: ChemoJoe ($99)
Button is seat 6
ChemoJoe: posts small blind $0.50
g0tjohnd: posts big blind $1
 HOLE CARDS 
ungod: dealt [5d 5h]
TheDealer: calls $1
ungod: raises $2
Beachside: folds
ChemoJoe: folds
g0tjohnd: raises $6
TheDealer: calls $6
ungod: calls $5
 FLOP  [4s 5c 5s]
g0tjohnd: bets $13.97
TheDealer: calls $13.97
ungod: calls $13.97
 TURN  [4s 5c 5s] [Jd]
g0tjohnd: checks
TheDealer: checks
ungod: bets $20.60
g0tjohnd: folds
TheDealer: raises all-in $137.31
ungod: raises all-in $77.67
TheDealer: pulls back uncalled bet $39.04
 RIVER  [4s 5c 5s] [Jd] [6h]
 SUMMARY 
Pot: $253.94 | Rake: $6 | BBJ: $0.01 |
Board: [4s 5c 5s Jd 6h]
Seat 3: g0tjohnd lost -$20.97
Seat 4: TheDealer lost -$119.24 [9s As] One Pair, Fives
Seat 5: ungod won $253.94 (+$134.70) [5d 5h] Four of a Kind, Fives
Seat 6: Beachside didn't bet
Seat 8: ChemoJoe lost -$0.50[/color]

Betcoin deleted posts in the main forum bringing attention to it and asked the players to submit a ticket.

They made no effort to inform or compensate players, fix the issue, or even reply to thos who had already complained for OVER THREE WEEKS.


December 8th I made THIS POST on BitcoinTalk, where they could not delete it,calling betcoin out for all of the above.


December 9th Betcoin Jessica STARTED A THREAD offering a 50 mbtc tournament ticket to players who test the rake and report back with "good feedback"  Players jumped on the chance at free money and posted how great the rake was and were thanked with free tickets.

(There were plenty of tables running at the time, why wouldn't they watch them, look over hand historys, data, etc.  Any other site would simply look at data, not player feedback.  The only logical reasons I can think for creating a thread like is because they thought the positive reaction to the rewards would help their image, or there were no employees available that understood how rake works.)
Two hands from Sebtember 9th:

6 handed 100NL.  Rake should be 2.5% with a cap of 2 mbtc.  6 mbtc is actually raked.


Heads Up 5000NL, Rake should be 2.5% with a 1 mbtc cap.  5 mbtc is actually raked.  At a table like this, Betcoin was taking 4 mbtc they weren't entitled to every time they saw a flop, for over 3 weeks.    (Tablestarter rakeback not offered on this table)





December 11th Betcoin makes the following statement:

The rake is actually programmed correctly in the system with the proper cap, but appears to be capping at 2 ($0.82) for most tables 5 ($2.14) for some tables and the highest of 8 mbtc ($3.43) for very few tables. To be clear this is still within the lower range of the caps for Poker Stars, Bovada, and Carbon Poker, but certainly not what we have on our rake page. For that we apologize, but we will certainly work through these bugs.  There was a backoffice update that caused a variety of errors including the table starter and rake issues. This has been a very enlightening bug as most ring game players are still earning over 100% of the rakeback which is now more and the affiliates are also earning more.

We are working with the software provider to get this fixed and will continue to provide updates at Betcoin.ag. Refunding players who have been overpaying is a bit more complicated because most players are actually getting more than they should! Do we take this away from them and their affiliates? We thank you for your support and will continue to work hard everyday. We just want this to be perfect for all of you and we will keep working hard until we get there. Great action on the tables right now and we will extend the 10 mbtc ring game promo!

Summary:

• Betcoin dealt over 588,000 hands between November 14th and December 9th. Each pot that reached the threshold was likely overcharged during this time.  I have yet to see a hand history suggest otherwise.

- Claimed:

The rake is actually programmed correctly in the system with the proper cap

and in the same sentence...

but appears to be capping at 2 ($0.82) for most tables 5 ($2.14) for some tables and the highest of 8 mbtc

- Claimed that refunding players would be complicated and then ignored the issue (over three weeks ago now)  and refused to respond to comments LIKE THIS ONEfrom Dooglus.

- Seemed to be justifying their decision not to refund players by pointing out that some players (maximum of two per table) received 100% rake back for starting the table, they made affiliate payments based on the ammount they overcharged and also their rake is low compared to other sites.


Reality:  I believe that 20 BTC is a pretty conservative estimate for total rake that Betcoin took but wasn't entitled to between November 14th and December 9th, mostly from the higher stakes players, who are less likely to complain or even care.

[wwwin]

Here's a new one.

On the forums this weekend, the player "Mentat" claims that he was a prop for a while and in fact received house funds to play poker with.  He also claims that he was refused a cashout for "around 30 coins" but that he received "nearly that amount over time to keep the games going".

So, it seems like Betcoin is paying their house players 30 coins, refusing cashouts, and not announcing that they employ (or the identity of) house players.  Sorry for no screenshots, I'm on the run and if nobody grabs them by the time I'm home I'll edit with them.

I've been putting off the whole bot thing because its so hard to actually prove and most of the time when someone cries bot they are idiot fish - but that's what Mentats talking about.  

They used bots (and Mentat + a couple others) to keep action at the tables up until the day they started the 100% rakeback tablestarter promo.

He was getting 100% rakeback and basically just helped "start tables" by playing the bots heads up and short handed.  These were very Bots were very exploitable and never changed which resulted in some pretty insane bb/100

Someone gave me this document with info on all the different bot accounts, (Login name, Screen name, Account #, City etc...)  The easiest way to tell if you were playing a bot was to check and see if it registered on Jan 22 2015.

http://pastebin.com/UsfK4LTm

Personally, I don't have a problem with them putting losing bots out to keep the games going, its a lot different then the GTO bots that are a threatening holdem as we know it.  People would probably over react though (and they did anyway) So of course lying about it would be more convienient for Betcoin, so they did, without shame:

How would they identify bots if they don't even know what to look for. LOL
I don't know why the WPN allows these guys to share the tournament player base with all the crap that is going on.

[TwitchySeal]

Here's a new one.

On the forums this weekend, the player "Mentat" claims that he was a prop for a while and in fact received house funds to play poker with.  He also claims that he was refused a cashout for "around 30 coins" but that he received "nearly that amount over time to keep the games going".

So, it seems like Betcoin is paying their house players 30 coins, refusing cashouts, and not announcing that they employ (or the identity of) house players.  Sorry for no screenshots, I'm on the run and if nobody grabs them by the time I'm home I'll edit with them.

I've been putting off the whole bot thing because its so hard to actually prove and most of the time when someone cries bot they are idiot fish - but that's what Mentats talking about.  

They used bots (and Mentat + a couple others) to keep action at the tables up until the day they started the 100% rakeback tablestarter promo.

He was getting 100% rakeback and basically just helped "start tables" by playing the bots heads up and short handed.  These were very Bots were very exploitable and never changed which resulted in some pretty insane bb/100

Someone gave me this document with info on all the different bot accounts, (Login name, Screen name, Account #, City etc...)  The easiest way to tell if you were playing a bot was to check and see if it registered on Jan 22 2015.

http://pastebin.com/UsfK4LTm

Personally, I don't have a problem with them putting losing bots out to keep the games going, its a lot different then the GTO bots that are a threatening holdem as we know it.  People would probably over react though (and they did anyway) So of course lying about it would be more convienient for Betcoin, so they did, without shame:

How would they identify bots if they don't even know what to look for. LOL
I don't know why the WPN allows these guys to share the tournament player base with all the crap that is going on.

Bots were never playing WPN tournaments (afaik), they were only at Betcoin cash games.

[wwwin]

The reason Betcoin is not refunding people is because there is basically nothing to refund.  A lot of people were getting 100%+ rakeback so the higher the rake the more they gained.   You have to consider the amount paid back in VIP RB, 100% bonuses, 100% RB prop player programs, affiliate RB, tablestarter RB etc, all of which Twitchy failed to consider in his calculations.

Ok, show me your calculations then, I've asked you for them many times.  I doubt you or Betcoin has even bothered to calculate anything.

I had already admitted that Betcoin made a mistake due to their inexperience in poker room management (to their credit they are growing exponentially wiser as time goes on).  The reason Betcoin is not refunding people is because there is basically nothing to refund.  A lot of people were getting 100%+ rakeback so the higher the rake the more they gained.

This is far from reality.  Xiaoxiao has continually made derceptive comments like this and then refused to defend them in any way.

Betcoin has a table starter promotion offering 100% rakeback.  At MOST 2 players from any table are eligible, because of the requirements - there are often going to be 0 or 1 players receiving it.

Xiao has refused to comment on the fact that heads up cash tables are not eligible for this promotion and Betcoin was taking up to 4 extra mbtc every time a hand went to the flop.

At the mid to high stakes, I estimate Betcoin was taking around 280 mbtc per hour from 10/31 - 12/9.

(Easily 100+ hands per hour, seeing 70% of flops = 280 chips/hr per table in over charged rake)

I've proven the rake was collected wrong during this 5+ week period, this is Xiaos comment which he refuses to elaborate on:

Regarding everything else you've said.  No, I totally disagree with your claims.  The rake did go higher briefly but was corrected.  

A small percentage of players were effected negatively but it's so minute that it's barely noticeable which is why those people aren't complaining or don't care.

 
This is just not true.  Many players were unaware they were stolen from, and recently have been asking for a refund.

There have been talks of a boycott recently by a group of players.  Here is an example of Betcoin handled one of the highest volume regulars on the site.

(read from bottom to top)


Dooglus summed up a great point on Betcoins forum by asking this question.  Rather than responding to him, Betcoin deleted it.


The only thing I agree with is the fact that Betcoin probably didn't do this on purpose.  Nearly every issue I've brought up has been a result of their incompetence.  If they would simply admit their mistakes, and fix them - this wouldn't be what it is today.

So this Jessica says adding many new players everyday...but the players at the cash tables don't go up for over a year since they went up due to Seals closed for a while..so:

So either 2 things must be going on:

1. Jessica is lying or,
2. There are as many players leaving as coming in new.

Cause the number of cash players in tables has not gone up for a year now and it actually may be going down a little bit.

12 players on 2 cash tables now....so where are all these new players...are they invisible?

[TwitchySeal]

So this Jessica says adding many new players everyday...but the players at the cash tables don't go up for over a year since they went up due to Seals closed for a while..so:

So either 2 things must be going on:

1. Jessica is lying or,
2. There are as many players leaving as coming in new.

Cause the number of cash players in tables has not gone up for a year now and it actually may be going down a little bit.

12 players on 2 cash tables now....so where are all these new players...are they invisible?

On 11/30 (Tue/Wed) their 7 day average was 28 players with a 24 hour peak of 50 players.

2/19 (Thur/Fri) their 7 day average is 30 players with a 24 hour peak of 55 players.




Got a lovely pm from them recently:

The staff looks at all the work you put in and appreciates your work ethic and commitment.  You really should be earning good bitcoin and building equity instead of having everything deleted from Betcoin or moved to the next page of the forum as more posts are added.  Ultimately, you just waste time while keeping Betcoin on the front page of the thread which means more traffic, more signature campaign members, etc.  We think you have a strong work ethic and could be a great contributor as you once were.  The amount of time and energy you have put in so far is truly remarkable.  It shows us that we have something special because every great company has people this passionate, but we want to channel your passion to help you more as you once were a great member of the community.  We look forward to your thoughts.

I totally believe you.

Just stop deleting my posts, unban my account and send whatever you think I should be paid here: 1KNaiM4KPUjjR2PZAJuNxS7ukMgRZgHcJv

I promise to continue sharing my opinion with you and everyone else either way.

[TwitchySeal]

Yesterday there were a couple new accounts making their first posts in Betcoins thread explaining why they enjoyed Betcoin.

This was after I outed Ftwbtc1 and Noobtc as shills when I noticed ftwbtc1 made a post on Betcoin forum that was almost identical to a post Noobtc made on BitcoinTalk within ~10 minutes of each other.

One of them was made by a player I was friendly with and staked a couple times in the past.  He was broke and made the post because Andrew offered him a ticket into their nightly .05 BTC buyin tournament.  It was all in spanish, here's the skype translation and screen shot.

Andrew Betcoin:
I will give you a daily ticket, but you must write a review about Betcoin and tell people why you enjoy playing at Betcoin in Spanish. This review will then be posted on a forum. Please do it here in this ticket first.

 
xxlx2014:
Bro u remember help me 100 chips and i returned back to your name 147  i not ripper  how jonny or trill for trill and jonny recived some some much chips to betcoin and never return me all time i returned

 
Andrew Betcoin:
I'll give you a ticket for a day, but you should write a comment on Bitcoin and tell people why do you like to play the Betcoin in Spanish. This review would include later in a forum. Please do it here in this ticket.

xxlx2014:
Hi I could play on many other websites, but I stayed here with you because plo8 andrew stuart brent danny, with the George I've peeled but now we're all good  mR paul is not now but I have all my respect in short and I have some friend and I say because I go on other website here I have played a lot of money I lost I've won I've raised more than 1000 chips to FREE players as you could check or If you don't take it out I of history and I have nothing to say just this Thanks and see we walk forward all together and United no tricks and fools! Thank you

 
xxlx2014:
This is day when I have and day are when I have no I ask for help 100 200 chips and give it back in a few days you know well betcoin once you have helped me and I've returned more but never look at me not help me return is normal not like others to trill to jonny has asked many times and has never returned but in the end this is
 
Andrew Betcoin:
Post in this forum is at the bottom in the answers and I'll give you a bonus ticket:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281850.1300

Hi I could play on many other websites, but I stayed here with you because plo8 andrew stuart brent danny, with the George I've peeled but now we're all good  mR paul is not now but I have all my respect in short and I have some friend and I say because I go on other website here I have played a lot of money I lost I've won I've raised more than 1000 chips to FREE players as you could check or If you don't take it out I of history and I have nothing to say just this Thanks and see we walk forward all together and United no tricks and fools! Thank you


 
xxlx2014: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281850.new#new donate
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281850.new#new donate



Andrew Betcoin:
I have added a daily coin ticket. Good luck.


 
xxlx2014:
OK thx now i unbaned you ) i kidding  but tiki tiki


 
Betcoin Andrew:
Thank you.

[DarkDays]

Damn Twitchy, they are offering to buy your silence, they are paying randoms to post positive reviews in foreign languages, I'm starting to feel left out that I've never been approached with a shady offer.

In all seriousness, this really is starting to look like the beginning of the end.  I remember a couple of weeks ago people were talking about very long cashout delays.  Does anyone know what the current status is on cashouts?  If it's taking longer than a couple of hours in primetime...there's got to be a reason.  Maybe we can start tracking payout/payin addresses to get a clearer look at their finances?  With the blockchain technology there is very little to hide if you take the time to look.

[wwwin]

Damn Twitchy, they are offering to buy your silence, they are paying randoms to post positive reviews in foreign languages, I'm starting to feel left out that I've never been approached with a shady offer.

In all seriousness, this really is starting to look like the beginning of the end.  I remember a couple of weeks ago people were talking about very long cashout delays.  Does anyone know what the current status is on cashouts?  If it's taking longer than a couple of hours in primetime...there's got to be a reason.  Maybe we can start tracking payout/payin addresses to get a clearer look at their finances?  With the blockchain technology there is very little to hide if you take the time to look.

So they are paying people to post in other languages paying them from the money that they stole from players by having an  inflated rake which twichy  found out...
Yes they seem to be desperate now it may be the  beginning of the end indeed.

[TwitchySeal]

Phishing attempts sent to emails that were used only to register Betcoin account
They have not accepted responsibility.

(The first email is actually from Betcoin, I think, and likely related )

From: Betcoin.ag Casino, Poker & Sports
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 1:18 AM
To: xxxxxxxxx
Subject: 5 BTC VIP Freeroll & Mandatory Password Reset for the New Year


{username},
Betcoin is excited to present the Betcoin Poker Players Club 5 BTC New Years Freeroll on January 10, 2016. This is a ticket only event and all players with Bronze I level or higher VIP / Player's Club status will receive a ticket by January 8, 2016. Players that have been active on Betcoin may also receive a ticket at the managers sole discretion.
https://www.betcoin.ag/betcoin-poker-players-club-vip-5-btc-new-years-freeroll
Password Change For the new year, with a new update starting on December 30, 2015, Betcoin.ag is requiring you to change your password for your security and to properly sync you with the new backend system. Please use a password that is not your current or previous password at Betcoin.ag for the utmost security.
Poker In addition to the 5 BTC Freeroll, Betcoin Poker offers up to 150% rakeback for starting cash and ring game tables as well as tournaments with up to $1,000,000 worth of bitcoin in GTD prizepools. There is no better place to play poker.
Sportsbook We will continue to bring you the best prematch and thousands of live events every month to Betcoin Sports including an extended eSports section and many new promotions.
Casino We have expanded our mobile casino, live and regular casino offerings and will continue to add new providers throughout 2016. Please also be sure to checkout our dice tournaments which include a daily freeroll.
It has been an exciting year for Betcoin.ag and we look forward to providing a wonderful experience in 2016 and beyond. As always, we appreciate your feedback and thank you for your support. Good luck in the 5 BTC Freeroll!
Sincerely,
Jessica White Betcoin.ag BetcoinSports.com BetcoinCasino.com BetcoinPoker.com BetcoinPartners.com
____ To change which emails you receive go here: https://www.betcoin.ag/notification/settings

From: US3 Online Marketplace [mailto:invoce-notices@vh262717.hostline.su]
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 11:34 PM
To: xxxxxxx
Subject: Invoice #841897

Invoice #841897

Attachment: Invoice.zip (56 kb)  [did not open]

From: Betcoin
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 2:19 PM
To: xxxxxxx
Subject: Important security update.

xxxxxxx,

We are fixing the cases of unauthorized access to user accounts Betcoin and funds theft.
If you want to protect your account, you need to change password of your Betcoin account and make client update: https://www.betcoin.ag/auupdate?token=mmQQSikkaBFaqvJzhntcSeDAdxvbg879
RECENT UPDATES:
•   100% Rakeback Table Starter Promo
•   Over 30 new slots from Endorphina and Xin Gaming
•   New high limit casino tables. Bet up to 5,000 chips per hand.
•   2 Factor Authentication is now available for increased account security
Don't forget the casino works on your mobile device. Simply go to www.betcoin.ag/casino to play now.

Link: http://141.105.69.206/dn/?e=V1hwT2JFNUVaM2RhVkZKQllqTkNhR1ZZUlhWWk1qbDA=

From: Bitstamp
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 7:07 AM
To: xxxxxxx
Subject: Important security updates

From: sales@myshoppingworlds.com
To: xxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 10:18 PM
Subject: Invoice

Body: Empty
Attachment: invoice.zip attached (52kb)

From: Support Team
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 11:47 AM
To: xxxxxxx
Subject: Security Update

Hello,
please download and install new serurity update.


Support Team

"download" is hyperlink to: http://178.33.182.131/security.exe

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Only a matter of time before the people wearing the betcoin.ag signature get tagged as scammers,  right? 

I swear there are no honest individuals on this forum.

[DarkStar_]

Only a matter of time before the people wearing the betcoin.ag signature get tagged as scammers,  right? 

I swear there are no honest individuals on this forum.

Not really, I doubt they will be tagged because a few months ago, cloudmining.scamsite had a sig campaign. They provided no mining proof, no select able pools or even pictures of their mining hardware, so it was pretty obvious it's a ponzi. People wearing the sig were not tagged though, since they were probably un-educated and there is a (really) small chance that it is legit. EcuiMobi had a post regarding that on doublebot's sig campaign page I think. Too lazy to find it though.

[TwitchySeal]

Message from Betcoin staff in player chat (after banning me) after I sent them link to this thread:

Only a matter of time before the people wearing the betcoin.ag signature get tagged as scammers,  right?  

I swear there are no honest individuals on this forum.

Not really, I doubt they will be tagged because a few months ago, cloudmining.scamsite had a sig campaign. They provided no mining proof, no select able pools or even pictures of their mining hardware, so it was pretty obvious it's a ponzi. People wearing the sig were not tagged though, since they were probably un-educated and there is a (really) small chance that it is legit. EcuiMobi had a post regarding that on doublebot's sig campaign page I think. Too lazy to find it though.

I ventured into the sig campaign thread last week when I saw an alt of a Betcoin Shill who was already a member of campaign apply: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg13958558#msg13958558

It went how I thought I would:

By sponser, I mean Betcoin.ag management.

I believe the ftwbtc1 and noobtc accounts Betcoin are used to protect their reputation.

ftwbtc1 = noobtc Post - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281850.msg13883749#msg13883749
ftwbtc/noobtc = Betcoin Jessica Thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1365849.0

I'm very confident ftwbtc = noobtc
I think it's very likely ftwbtc/noobtc is Betcoin Jessica or is someone who is told exactly what to post by Betcoin Management.

Hello,

No disrespect, but I must stop you here.

Ftwbtc came here as a "Member" and he just nicely wanted to participate in our campaign.
I told him that we don't accept "members" but he wanted to wear our signature without getting paid per post.
He is a big fan of the Betcoin.ag because he know that Betcoin.ag is one of the best.

Also if Betcoin.ag Management was offering some tickets for reviews about them, what's wrong about that? Ask people for a review is wrong in your opinion?

Thank you very much for your time. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with offering bounties for reviews.
However, if noobtc account is an alt of ftwbtw I'll do my own own investigation.


Good luck,
best regards.

Hello,

Thanks, but please find suitable section for such posts.

This is Betcoin.ag Signature Campaign thread and I don't really understand how come this is related with our campaign?
If you really think that one of our participants was trying to join us with his alt account, I understand you and thanks for informing me about your thoughts.  Even if were right (or not) he won't be able to join.

Anything else what you're saying about it's not really related with signature campaign.
Please create your thread on other sections and post those infos over there. Please don't use our campaign thread to spam with your trollspeech


Also please respect that in my and in opinion of many Betcoin.ag is reliable, professional and the best Bitcoin Online Casino.


Good luck,
best regards.

[ungod]

I have an emerald 2 account on betcoin that I earned almost entirely from poker. I totally back twitchyseal on nearly everything he has posted here, and even helped contribute some of the facts.

[doctorsnaggles]

I have an emerald 2 account on betcoin that I earned almost entirely from poker. I totally back twitchyseal on nearly everything he has posted here, and even helped contribute some of the facts.

Heres the deal, because many seem to believe that by using Bitcoins they entered a different kind of universe robbing them from all rights. Betcoin is not a "scam", they are just amateurs running into a wall, so alot of actions will turn into a scam in the end but right now they are still "legal". If any of you are missing money or have evidence of money stolen - what are you doing here? WPN is providing them with service in poker. You think they would be able to join any respected network? Did you see who WPN is providing services to? (Hi Phil, sorry, fuck you... but i like you) ...

I give you a hint:

"Security and fairness both seem to be taken seriously on the network, which is licensed and regulated by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. The Kahnawake Gaming Commission represents over 250 online gaming sites and are best known for their ruling against the poker site Ultimate Bet on a different network in 2009"

For those of you who remember Ultimate bet, you know how it ended and for those of you have ANY clue about gaming, you know this gaming commission. If you have problems with Betcoin, you write to that gaming commission and they contact WPN and then Betcoin will have to answer.. the rest youre doing is a waste of time... you heard it here first.

[TwitchySeal]

I have an emerald 2 account on betcoin that I earned almost entirely from poker. I totally back twitchyseal on nearly everything he has posted here, and even helped contribute some of the facts.

Heres the deal, because many seem to believe that by using Bitcoins they entered a different kind of universe robbing them from all rights. Betcoin is not a "scam", they are just amateurs running into a wall, so alot of actions will turn into a scam in the end but right now they are still "legal". If any of you are missing money or have evidence of money stolen - what are you doing here? WPN is providing them with service in poker. You think they would be able to join any respected network? Did you see who WPN is providing services to? (Hi Phil, sorry, fuck you... but i like you) ...

I give you a hint:

"Security and fairness both seem to be taken seriously on the network, which is licensed and regulated by the Kahnawake Gaming Commission. The Kahnawake Gaming Commission represents over 250 online gaming sites and are best known for their ruling against the poker site Ultimate Bet on a different network in 2009"

For those of you who remember Ultimate bet, you know how it ended and for those of you have ANY clue about gaming, you know this gaming commission. If you have problems with Betcoin, you write to that gaming commission and they contact WPN and then Betcoin will have to answer.. the rest youre doing is a waste of time... you heard it here first.

Not sure where you got that info from about WPN being regulated, but it's wrong, they do not have a license from anyone.  Betcoin doesn't have a license either.  You think Kahnawake would license a site with 0 KYC requirements?   This is unregulated poker, the players either need to stand up for themselves  when shit happens or bend over and plan on staying that way.


fwiw, This thread was moved to scam accusations by a mod.  I started it in  MarketPlace > Gambling forum because I don't even know what the definition of "scam" even is these days.  

I don't think I ever called them a scam either.  I may have called their behavior "scammy", but as far as the accusations I've made about them stealing funds, I think they all began as an innocent mistake; a result of their incompetence.  It's the way the handled the situation that is the real issue imo.

For example the rakeback:

Nov 1 I think its reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt that at 00:00 server time on 11/1/16 the rake cap was increased significantly without them realizing it.

It's also reasonable that it took more than a week before anyone noticed since rake, like most ways casinos profit, is designed so that the player barely notices it's happening in the first place.

The issue im trying to draw attention to is that a player (ungod) alerted them about the issue November 14th, yet they did nothing about it until December 10th.  (the day after I raised hell on the forums)

Then, their solution was to raise their rake officially and refuse to refund anything they had "accidentally stolen"

I have a theory on why their not paying back the players, as well.  I don't think they have anyone on staff that even knows where to begin when it comes to calculating the refunds.  I can't remember if it was plo8monster or management but someone seemed to think 600k+ hands would take hundreds of hours to analyze and figure out who to refund and how much.  Anyone with a basic understanding of online poker knows that all you need either Holdem Manager2  or Pokertracker4 and someone who knows how to use it and you could get it done in an hour or two.

Instead they ignore it for months:





Now here we are, almost march 1, they still haven't done shit, so at what point do they go from idiots to idiot thieves?

Is it not stealing if some most of the players dont notice?

I do intend on creating a petition to get Betcoin booted from the WTN on twoplustwo, hopefully I can convince phil that they do way more damage to the integrity and reputation of the network than the 0.5% total liquidity they offer.


One more thing:

For those of you who remember Ultimate bet, you know how it ended and for those of you have ANY clue about gaming, you know this gaming commission. If you have problems with Betcoin, you write to that gaming commission and they contact WPN and then Betcoin will have to answer.. the rest youre doing is a waste of time... you heard it here first.

I remember the entire Ultimate Bet scandal unfolding on twoplustwo.com, a forum just like this one.  They probably would of gotten away with it if the players thought discussing it on a forum was a waste of time.

[doctorsnaggles]

Not sure where you got that info from about WPN being regulated, but it's wrong, they do not have a license from anyone.  Betcoin doesn't have a license either.  You think Kahnawake would license a site with 0 KYC requirements?   This is unregulated poker, the players either need to stand up for themselves  when shit happens or bend over and plan on staying that way.

I remember the entire Ultimate Bet scandal unfolding on twoplustwo.com, a forum just like this one.  They probably would of gotten away with it if the players thought discussing it on a forum was a waste of time.

Phil wouldnt be able to make official statements to the press, including american media without any legal grounds. He would be arrested at the next opportunity since USA is cracking down all illegal offerings. They are using a loophole thats why WPN cant offer services to all states in USA (Nevada, Delaware....) where regulation has started. Else it wouldnt be different than a drugdealer openly announcing his services now to another country, because police cracked down his operation.

Having said that, from a legal point of view, you could call it "unregulated" since "regulated" markets exist but this is like having a license from Malta and offering services to e.g. Italy based on EU rules.

I admit, my info was outdated - they have left the Kahnawake license, silently, in 2014 (when pulling out of the regulated states - since the canadian license was not protecting them anymore) and continue to be "licensed" in Costa Rica (see below for more). Regarding the above mentioned logic, here is an (old) article of WPN pulling out:

http://www.flushdraw.net/news/winning-poker-network-announces-five-1m-tourneys-in-september-and-october/

"Since 2011, three US states have legalized online poker — Nevada, Delaware and New jersey.  However, the fact that no other states have joined those three have allowed gray-market sites serving other US states to continue to flourish."

Another one:

http://mahirpoker.com/wpn-announces-five-more-million-dollar-sundays-throughout-the-fall/

"WPN is the second-biggest US-facing “grey” online poker network, behind Bovada/Bodog, and includes the flagship skins Americas Cardroom (once upon a time known as Doyles Room) and Betcris Poker."

If they would continue offering services to these states now, Phil would be arrested and their websites would be seized as it happened with other illegal pokerrooms.

Regulated and unregulated depends on a point of view - its a grey market, but they need a legal ground to start with and these days its costa rica. The loophole here is, as with many others operating out of costa rica, that the government allows companies to create poker/gaming business - they pay tax on it and using the costa rica cover to offer services around until a market is regulated.

So technically, its Costa Rica and their Chamber of Commerce or whatever its called, the unit that is permitting companies to conduct business. If anyone is fluent in spanish, here you will find a breakdown of taxes and similar for these companies:

http://www.asamblea.go.cr/Centro_de_informacion/biblioteca/Centro_Dudas/Lists/Formule%20su%20pregunta/Attachments/900/Ley%209050-casinos.pdf

So, if they are breaking the law in any way, or companies affiliated with them - its the ones "licensing" them in Costa Rica to contact - which is not a real "gaming license" .. its "a permit to open up a gaming company" - but effectively, its "licensed" through that. With legal paper work , registration and taxes.

If any problems with them arise, its this unit that is responsible. If alot of people claim that Betcoin is stealing money through WPN, complain straight at the ones who allow WPN conduct business - they are legally registered and the law, no matter which license, doesnt allow stealing money

[TwitchySeal]

Having said that, from a legal point of view, you could call it "unregulated" since "regulated" markets exist but this is like having a license from Malta and offering services to e.g. Italy based on EU rules.

It's unregulated.  They don't have a license.  Anywhere.  Same as swcpoker

You won't find mention of one anywhere: http://www.winningpokernetwork.com/

Betcoin may not even have a headquarters.  Up until a few months ago it was literally just 3 or 4 guys running the show.  Now they have 4 or 5 CS people and the 3 or 4 guys are now the "managers"

"WPN is the second-biggest US-facing “grey” online poker network, behind Bovada/Bodog, and includes the flagship skins Americas Cardroom (once upon a time known as Doyles Room) and Betcris Poker."

If they would continue offering services to these states now, Phil would be arrested and their websites would be seized as it happened with other illegal pokerrooms.

I live in NJ and have played full time on the regulated sites here since day 1.  I also play on 5dimes, betdsi and moneybooker which are all partners of WPN (unlike Betcoin) and they have no problem letting me play and they know where I live. ACR, Blackchip Truepoker (also WPN partners) won't let me play.  I can't play on Bodog either.  Betcris doesn't accept Americans at all anymore.

I'm not sure how Phil gets away with his identity and position in the public, but I know the feds have tried and failed at shutting down Bovada and arresting Calvin Ayres, and probably aren't to happy with WPN either.

I think ACR fucked up in early 2014. They were airing the WSOP National Championship from the Boardwalk in Atlantic City on ESPN, sponsored by WSOP.com (a regulated NJ site).  ACR bought a ton of commercials, literally one every break at least making "legal online poker" look like a joke compared to the tournaments they guaranteed. Caesers got pissed and got NJDGE to do something - it worked.

So, if they are breaking the law in any way, or companies affiliated with them - its the ones "licensing" them in Costa Rica to contact - which is not a real "gaming license" .. its "a permit to open up a gaming company" - but effectively, its "licensed" through that. With legal paper work , registration and taxes.

If any problems with them arise, its this unit that is responsible. If alot of people claim that Betcoin is stealing money through WPN, complain straight at the ones who allow WPN conduct business - they are legally registered and the law, no matter which license, doesnt allow stealing money

Getting back to Betcoin-

They aren't even part of WPN.  They're in the Winning Tournament Network (WTN) which means WPN sells them entries to their tournaments for 50% of the fee.

Betcoin has their own network of players, they run their own cash games and Bitcoin only tournaments, and nobody even know who the fuck they are.  There's nobody in costa rica that knows anything about how Betcoin runs their business any more than you or me.

3 easy steps to create your own site and have instant liquidity with WTN: http://www.winningtournamentnetwork.com/service/



Here's what WPN Tourney Director said in November about Betcoin:

[doctorsnaggles]

You won't find mention of one anywhere: http://www.winningpokernetwork.com/

Betcoin may not even have a headquarters.  Up until a few months ago it was literally just 3 or 4 guys running the show.  Now they have 4 or 5 CS people and the 3 or 4 guys are now the "managers"

I live in NJ and have played full time on the regulated sites here since day 1.  I also play on 5dimes, betdsi and moneybooker which are all partners of WPN (unlike Betcoin) and they have no problem letting me play and they know where I live. ACR, Blackchip Truepoker (also WPN partners) won't let me play.  I can't play on Bodog either.  Betcris doesn't accept Americans at all anymore.

I'm not sure how Phil gets away with his identity and position in the public, but I know the feds have tried and failed at shutting down Bovada and arresting Calvin Ayres, and probably aren't to happy with WPN either.

I think ACR fucked up in early 2014. They were airing the WSOP National Championship from the Boardwalk in Atlantic City on ESPN, sponsored by WSOP.com (a regulated NJ site).  ACR bought a ton of commercials, literally one every break at least making "legal online poker" look like a joke compared to the tournaments they guaranteed. Caesers got pissed and got NJDGE to do something - it worked.

Getting back to Betcoin-

They aren't even part of WPN.  They're in the Winning Tournament Network (WTN) which means WPN sells them entries to their tournaments for 50% of the fee.

Betcoin has their own network of players, they run their own cash games and Bitcoin only tournaments, and nobody even know who the fuck they are.  There's nobody in costa rica that knows anything about how Betcoin runs their business any more than you or me.

I dont want to make it look like Im defending WPN or especially Betcoin in any way, because I fully believe Betcoin is a bunch of amateurs that is about to go broke/run (but not yet), but WPN is not "unregulated" based on law. As mentioned and outlined in my previous post, they are located in Costa Rica. The legal enviroment in Costa Rica allows them to open up a Pokerroom or Sportsbook and the Costa Rica government has laws/rules for that (see my link provided in previous post - run it through google translator if you dont speak spanish - I cant find any official english version of it). Is this creating trust when dealing with them? No, I dont think so, but since Costa Rica has a jurisdiction, the legal papers are valid.

In regards to Calvin and Bodog, well, Calvin is the uncle scrooge or Richard Bronson of gaming, he probably has a billion on his account - its a different class, but its a good example, because he did break the law and bodog.com was seized by the feds - no matter how big he is/was. An operation like WPN for Calvin would be peanuts.. not worth his style, but he could do it whenever. I guess he wont be visiting USA anytime soon:

http://www.flushdraw.net/news/feds-want-calvin-ayre-extradited-united-states/

Didnt he go to Manila at some point?

Phil, on the other hand, is even officially announcing the expansion:

http://pokerfuse.com/news/law-and-regulation/27253-wpn-ceo-phil-nagy-legalized-poker-overrated/

He would have to be suicidal to say that without any legal back up. Hes hiding behind the Costa Rica law, which is his right to do so. Feds wont be happy but hes not breaking the law, hes withdrawing step by step from everywhere where regulation started and looking for more unregulated ones.

Now, Betcoin must have some sort of contract with WPN, else they wouldnt be able on that network and WPN has the responsibility of ensuring the security when running the tournaments. You can sign up with any network depending on your budget, but that network provider cant shift responsibility to others - its them who own the tournaments.

Betcoins own tournaments is a different thing .. I actually didnt had this in mind. You are absolutely right, that is proper bullshit without any legal ground I can see - perhaps they have a parental mailbox company set up in Costa Rica. If not just report them to some international cybercrime unit (Europol should have one). I just have a hard time believing they would be running all this with "nothing" .. often it appears like nothing, but there is at least some "registration" somewhere. Having said all that, Im curious now myself about the exact whereabouts of them... will be back.

Edit:

For what its worth, their own TCs are saying:
https://www.betcoin.ag/support/betcoin-poker-terms-service-tos

25. GOVERNING LAW
These Agreements shall be governed by and interpreted in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong. You irrevocably agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Curacao in The Netherlands Antilles for the settlement of any dispute or matters arising out of or concerning these Agreements or their enforceability.

According to "Robert" here, the site itself is in Costa Rica:



This is a wild guess, but I assume its a mix of several jurisdictions due to tax, servers, law etc. - but still doesnt answer much. Hong Kong has quite a few Bitcoin related companies registered and Curacao is known for gambling activities .. just not sure yet how the puzzle fits but will be back

[TwitchySeal]

You won't find mention of one anywhere: http://www.winningpokernetwork.com/

Betcoin may not even have a headquarters.  Up until a few months ago it was literally just 3 or 4 guys running the show.  Now they have 4 or 5 CS people and the 3 or 4 guys are now the "managers"

I live in NJ and have played full time on the regulated sites here since day 1.  I also play on 5dimes, betdsi and moneybooker which are all partners of WPN (unlike Betcoin) and they have no problem letting me play and they know where I live. ACR, Blackchip Truepoker (also WPN partners) won't let me play.  I can't play on Bodog either.  Betcris doesn't accept Americans at all anymore.

I'm not sure how Phil gets away with his identity and position in the public, but I know the feds have tried and failed at shutting down Bovada and arresting Calvin Ayres, and probably aren't to happy with WPN either.

I think ACR fucked up in early 2014. They were airing the WSOP National Championship from the Boardwalk in Atlantic City on ESPN, sponsored by WSOP.com (a regulated NJ site).  ACR bought a ton of commercials, literally one every break at least making "legal online poker" look like a joke compared to the tournaments they guaranteed. Caesers got pissed and got NJDGE to do something - it worked.

Getting back to Betcoin-

They aren't even part of WPN.  They're in the Winning Tournament Network (WTN) which means WPN sells them entries to their tournaments for 50% of the fee.

Betcoin has their own network of players, they run their own cash games and Bitcoin only tournaments, and nobody even know who the fuck they are.  There's nobody in costa rica that knows anything about how Betcoin runs their business any more than you or me.

I dont want to make it look like Im defending WPN or especially Betcoin in any way, because I fully believe Betcoin is a bunch of amateurs that is about to go broke/run (but not yet), but WPN is not "unregulated" based on law. As mentioned and outlined in my previous post, they are located in Costa Rica. The legal enviroment in Costa Rica allows them to open up a Pokerroom or Sportsbook and the Costa Rica government has laws/rules for that (see my link provided in previous post - run it through google translator if you dont speak spanish - I cant find any official english version of it). Is this creating trust when dealing with them? No, I dont think so, but since Costa Rica has a jurisdiction, the legal papers are valid.

In regards to Calvin and Bodog, well, Calvin is the uncle scrooge or Richard Bronson of gaming, he probably has a billion on his account - its a different class, but its a good example, because he did break the law and bodog.com was seized by the feds - no matter how big he is/was. An operation like WPN for Calvin would be peanuts.. not worth his style, but he could do it whenever. I guess he wont be visiting USA anytime soon:

http://www.flushdraw.net/news/feds-want-calvin-ayre-extradited-united-states/

Didnt he go to Manila at some point?

Phil, on the other hand, is even officially announcing the expansion:

http://pokerfuse.com/news/law-and-regulation/27253-wpn-ceo-phil-nagy-legalized-poker-overrated/

He would have to be suicidal to say that without any legal back up. Hes hiding behind the Costa Rica law, which is his right to do so. Feds wont be happy but hes not breaking the law, hes withdrawing step by step from everywhere where regulation started and looking for more unregulated ones.

Now, Betcoin must have some sort of contract with WPN, else they wouldnt be able on that network and WPN has the responsibility of ensuring the security when running the tournaments. You can sign up with any network depending on your budget, but that network provider cant shift responsibility to others - its them who own the tournaments.

Betcoins own tournaments is a different thing .. I actually didnt had this in mind. You are absolutely right, that is proper bullshit without any legal ground I can see - perhaps they have a parental mailbox company set up in Costa Rica. If not just report them to some international cybercrime unit (Europol should have one). I just have a hard time believing they would be running all this with "nothing" .. often it appears like nothing, but there is at least some "registration" somewhere. Having said all that, Im curious now myself about the exact whereabouts of them... will be back.

Edit:

For what its worth, their own TCs are saying:
https://www.betcoin.ag/support/betcoin-poker-terms-service-tos

25. GOVERNING LAW
These Agreements shall be governed by and interpreted in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong. You irrevocably agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Curacao in The Netherlands Antilles for the settlement of any dispute or matters arising out of or concerning these Agreements or their enforceability.

According to "Robert" here, the site itself is in Costa Rica:



This is a wild guess, but I assume its a mix of several jurisdictions due to tax, servers, law etc. - but still doesnt answer much. Hong Kong has quite a few Bitcoin related companies registered and Curacao is known for gambling activities .. just not sure yet how the puzzle fits but will be back

Wow, I never stumbled across those T&C

The registration process consists of filling in these 4 fields, and agreeing to THESE TERMS (I know highschool kids who could do a better job as far as language)



Still, I'm having a hard time believing that anyone from Betcoin would bother to actually fill out paperwork if they thought they could get away with not filling out paper work and not paying taxes ever.  They do whatever they want and think they can get away with it, what's keeping them from running the whole operation without ever informing any government anywhere? 

[jjoorriissjjuuhh]

Wow, very detailed post. It is interesting to me as outsider (I did not play on that site) to see how far people can go to scam their fellow BTCfans from money. It is a shame honestly.

[TwitchySeal]

So I noticed recently Xiao posted this:

Also please note that for WPN shared tournaments only 50% of the rake you pay counts towards VIP and my rakeback service as the other 50% goes to the WPN network.

So I did some investigating because I have paid thousands in WPN MTT fees and never heard of this "Players only get half of their normal rakeback for WPN mtts". It's not mentioned anywhere on Betcoins site.  In a forum post I found, they even stated the oppopsite:

https://www.betcoin.ag/vip-affiliate-rakeback-tourney-fees-betcoin-explained

Betcoin receives 50% of the fees players pay when entering WPN tournaments and sitngos. For the VIP program Betcoin pays you as if Betcoin had received 100% of the fee even though Betcoin received only 50% of the fee.

September 1st I opened a ticket because of significant missing rakeback and status points which was the reason I quit playing there in October, and eventually got banned for not shutting up all the missing money.

I decided to hop on live chat and see if they were just paying me half the whole time and didn't want to admit it.

It was my lucky day as the ever so pleasant "Expert Support Supervisor" George was on duty:

Betcoin George
Expert Support Supervisor Chat started

Hi, Im trying to figure out if betcoin has been paying 50% or 100% of vip rewards for WPN mtts

Are you an affiliate or a VIP?

i was a VIP till you banned me

So if your banned why does it matter?

because I want to know how much you technically owe me and all the other players xiao made a post saying you only pay 50% vip rewards, and that shouldn't be the case, but it would explain why i was missing so much rakeback

I will not waste my time on a player like you my energy is better spent helping others. Anything said to you in a manner becomes a way for you to run to the forums. If we banned you nothing is owed to you. You are a very sad person find something better to do with your time other than to try to hurt others.

im just trying to get the truth

I am a big believer that all you put out there will come back tenfold. Take care. I am done with this conversation.

(note: the money owed to me took place from March - Mid October, I estimate it between 3 and 4 BTC) They banned me in november for refusing to shut up about the missing rakeback)

I'm guessing george wasnt the employee who wrote me this pm recently:

The staff looks at all the work you put in and appreciates your work ethic and commitment.  You really should be earning good bitcoin and building equity instead of having everything deleted from Betcoin or moved to the next page of the forum as more posts are added.  Ultimately, you just waste time while keeping Betcoin on the front page of the thread which means more traffic, more signature campaign members, etc.  We think you have a strong work ethic and could be a great contributor as you once were.  The amount of time and energy you have put in so far is truly remarkable.  It shows us that we have something special because every great company has people this passionate, but we want to channel your passion to help you more as you once were a great member of the community.  We look forward to your thoughts.

[/quote]

[doctorsnaggles]

Still, I'm having a hard time believing that anyone from Betcoin would bother to actually fill out paperwork if they thought they could get away with not filling out paper work and not paying taxes ever.  They do whatever they want and think they can get away with it, what's keeping them from running the whole operation without ever informing any government anywhere? 

Its not that easy as it might seem. Its one thing to run a scam for a short time and disappear and another staying online "completely illegal" in the public eye for some years. There is no point for them to not inform the government of their business since its very easy legally to set up a company like this in Costa Rica (the second cheapest option would have to be Panama, but its already way more expensive). Companies/Businesses move there due to the low taxes, so in order to avoid taxes in an already tax haven - they would have to be deranged and surely wouldnt survive that long. Competition alone would have already reported them. There are many in Costa Rica and Betcoin seems to have a big name, so in case they would be really that highly illegal, other would have taken care of it - same as in every other industry since one less on the market means more money for you.

Im still interested in understanding the full legal ground of them but you need to keep in mind that the people behind Betcoin are known to everyone (who wants) and are not hiding, if thats what you are indicating sometimes (?). Betcoin was founded by Ali Bagheri and Magnus Lindberg and while I agree they dont run around telling everyone, they are surely not "hiding" the fact. They seem to have invested alot in their legal division prior to setting up Betcoin and its interesting to note that Ali Bagheri is currently only a "consultant" to the company. Both are swedish guys and both have been in i-gaming for years. They are entrepreneurs. I would perhaps bet money that the final intention is to sell it to someone else and move on. Magnus has been in several projects like this.

Its still a wild guess, but mixing up jurisdictions, location of servers and whatnot is a common practice among even the biggest regulated gaming operators - there is nothing wrong with that, so I assume they are doing the same, securing themselves in every way possible (its a guess, but understand that they wont be handing out blueprints to their investment plan). If I have a chance I will try to ask directly how it works (as I dont understand which jurisdiction is responsible for what in their structure)

Regarding all these issues with them, thats another thing. Business doesnt work like a lemon stand buying/selling and as I mentioned before, I believe they are running out of money slowly, along with regulated markets growing. We will see, but if you have solid proof that they are stealing money or manipulating something (which from what I understand is the case), forward it to EVERY possible jurisdiction they have legally a presence (a mailbox is enough). Send an email/letter outlining the problem to every chamber of commerce and/or also a cybercrime unit like the one at europol (just google it). Curacao has a gambling commission and Im sure they would be interested to know if an operator is claiming to be using their jurisdiction somehow without permit - and I doubt Betcoin would risk that.

They are too smart to just run into a knife with this by being stupid and if I could give them an advise, I would seriously fire or punch everyone of their drunken CS team, who would be a disgrace in every industry/business.

Another possibility is that they are already selling or have sold their shares and the company is run by someone else (again, they do many projects). The customer service is customer service... dont always take everything serious they say, they are nobody in this. When Microsoft fucks up again, I cant go to court with a conversation of their CS claiming I made a mistake setting up my Skype.

In the end, to set up something like this, the sportsbook alone, you need feed providers, automatic settling etc... there is quite some money involved upfront to be able to do that and im not talking few thousands. Whatever is now, it surely cant have been the intention from the start. Lets see....

[TwitchySeal]

@drsnaggles

Thanks, alot of good advice and info I had no idea about.

I'm definitely going to put together some sort of formal complaint to and see where i can get it to stick.

I looked into  Ali Bagheri and Magnus Lindberg, and can't imagine they have been involved with Betcoin for long after they launched.  They seem to have developed whatever software Betcoin is using for WPN tournaments to automatically convert BTC to USD and then back to BTC should the player cash.  I don't think they developed it with Betcoin as it is today in mind.

For those who don't know, when you buy in to these tournaments, there is no log or record available.  Not for the player and support often has no clue what tournaments someone played.

Players get screwed constantly when tournaments are cancelled, or they unregister from a tournament but don't get a refund.  Support basically has to take their word that it ever happened.

To me, this is the sign of a business using software they don't understand.  Not a business run by the guys who developed it.

I think this is the Betcoin that the Bagheri and Lindberg sold:






Not this:

[hopenotlate]

I see from the picture you posted they founded Betcoin on November 2014 but I'm quite sure they did it earlier: at least one year before.
But maybe that's only the date when he created his account on the site from which that screenshot come from.

Or more likely I'm missing something.

[doctorsnaggles]

I see from the picture you posted they founded Betcoin on November 2014 but I'm quite sure they did it earlier: at least one year before.
But maybe that's only the date when he created his account on the site from which that screenshot come from.

Or more likely I'm missing something.

http://www.bestbitcoinpoker.org/websites/betcoin-ag/

http://btcpoker.co.uk/betcoin-poker/

https://bitcoincasinos.reviews/betcoinag-review/

"One of the newest online poker sites in the industry, it initially launched in December 2013 as Betcoin Sportsbook, before going on to add Betcoin Casino and then Betcoin Poker.  While information about the company’s origin is rather scarce, we do know that it was founded by two iGaming experts Ali Bagheri and Magnus Lindberg who ambitiously aimed to develop the worlds largest Bitcoin poker site and pave the way for a new era in online gaming entertainment."

It was earlier - anyway- I have been sick and laying around in bed, will post more on this soon.

[donk4u]

This will be my first and last post in this thread.

Regarding what Twitchy has posted; he's blown this thing out of proportion now, and a lot of his facts are wrong to begin with.  We've discussed this many times.  With that said, I admire Twitchy for trying to be a watchdog and his vigor, but his intentions now have become ego-driven.  

I had already admitted that Betcoin made a mistake due to their inexperience in poker room management (to their credit they are growing exponentially wiser as time goes on).  The reason Betcoin is not refunding people is because there is basically nothing to refund.  A lot of people were getting 100%+ rakeback so the higher the rake the more they gained.   You have to consider the amount paid back in VIP RB, 100% bonuses, 100% RB prop player programs, affiliate RB, tablestarter RB etc, all of which Twitchy failed to consider in his calculations.  A small percentage of players were effected negatively but it's so minute that it's barely noticeable which is why those people aren't complaining or don't care.  It's like would you camp outside of your local gas station demanding a 9/10 of a penny refund because you thought the price was $1.50/gallon and not $1.509/gallon.  This is similar to what Twitchy is doing right now.

Betcoin is not out for a "cash grab" or trying to steal; they have absolutely no incentive to do that.  They're owned/backed by WPN, one of the bigger poker networks out there.  

There's currently 67,000 members at Betcoin, and right now on a Tuesday morning, approx. 150-300 members are actively using the site as a means of work, entertainment, community and fellowship.  If they felt remotely close to the way Twitchy feels, they wouldn't be doing what they're doing.  Assuming 3/4 of those members are multi-accounts trying to take advantage of site promo's and bonuses, that leaves us with 15,000 genuine members. Not even 1% of the genuine Betcoin members feels the same way as Twitchy.




LOl at 67,000 people on betcoin right now!!!hahhahahah what a tool. This is the same tool that said that winning poker owned betcoin.

[ungod]

Many players who used the table starter rakeback program were overpaid, and probably aren't due much if any refund when these potentially overpaid moneys are considered. However; who is around to calculate exactly how much of a player's play was using table starter compared to their overall play as a whole? Betcoin certainly has not attempted to make any such calculations.

Secondly, the players using table starter make up a small percentage of players at Betcoin in my opinion. Without using table starter, players received rakeback and vip benefits on their play, yes, but they were overraked so this hardly matters and only increases the amount taken out of their accounts, regardless of what percentage of that moneys was given back (below 100%).

A lot of these caps at various levels were 3x-6x too high. So, you can only imagine the damage done to players like ___ACTl0NNNN if he weren't using table starter. I spoke with a player who wishes to remain anonymous for fear of retaliation who said they never used table starter even once. I instructed them how to find their overraked hands through pokertracker4. This player found more than 300 chips in overpaid rake. Their VIP level returned them maybe 20% of this amount, so they're due a significant amount in refund. I would describe this player as a recreational player.

I imagine there are many others out there with similar numbers who never used table starter, the majority of which do not even know this issue occurred even months later.

[marlais]

I instructed them how to find their overraked hands through pokertracker4.

Could you post a brief tutorial, or a link to a post with the info?

[TwitchySeal]

I instructed them how to find their overraked hands through pokertracker4.

Could you post a brief tutorial, or a link to a post with the info?

Dear Betcoin,

I volunteer to determine exactly how much money was taken that should not have been while you "unintentionally" increased the rake cap at your cash games from October 31st 2015 - December 9th 2015.

I will send you a list of exactly how much you owe to each player and a list of the specific hands that were over raked and won by the player.

Hands won by players that were receiving 100%+ rakeback at the time of the hand will not be added to the amount owed.

Players who received more rakeback than they paid during this period will be excluded from any refund.

The max refund any player will be eligible to receive will be determined as follows:

(Total Rake Paid by Player during period) - (Total Rakeback paid to player during period) = Maximum Refund

Please send me the hand history of every cash game you dealt from October 31st to December 10th as well as an itemized list of all rake back paid to each player.

If you are worried about how it would look when the truth was revealed or simply would rather keep the money you stole from you players, simply ignore this request.



Sincerely,

TwitchySeal

PS - Please remove holecards as it would be unethical for you to give any player (past or present) access to that sort of info (not that you have any sort of privacy policy....or ethics)

 The % they took isn't the issue, it's the cap.  

For example, on the heads up tables that should have never been raked more than 1 chip, they were taking 5.

The rake used to be a consistant 2.5% with a cap that varried based on total players and stakes.

They would have to go through each stake, determine the max pot size that would be unaffected by the correct cap, and then sort all pots larger than that.

For example:

At .5/1 6max table, the rake was advertised 2.5% with a cap of 2 chips.  They "unintentionally" increased the cap to 6 chips.

2.5% of 80 = 2

So any pot 80 chips or smaller was not affected.

I think it would be reasonable to use the following rounding:

All pots 80-120 chips be treated as if they were 100 chips and raked 2.5 chips with .5 chips needing to be refunded to the winner of the pot.

All pots 120-160 would require a 1.5 chip refund.

All pots 160-200 would require a 2.5 chip refund.

All pots 200-240 = 3.5 chip refund

Any pot greater than 240 = 4 chip refund.

Betcoin obviously ignored my offer.

In related news, It's now March 2, and they have yet to make a statement as promised here:



I know ungod has attempted to set up an appointment to speak with management, but was denied.  Not sure of exact details why.

[ungod]

I instructed them how to find their overraked hands through pokertracker4.

Could you post a brief tutorial, or a link to a post with the info?

When looking at your PT4, set the statistics to sort by between dates 10/30/15-12/9/15. Then you'll need to go through each stake you played individually and sort the rake column by descending order. This should bring all the highest caps to the top. For any stakes under 4/8 you can start by looking for hands that charged above 2, all these are overraked. Additionally, any HU play that was capped above 0.5 at these stakes will be overrakes. Also, any 3-4 handed hands that were capped above 1. This is a little tedious, but you should be able to find the hands a little easier by doing this. Play around with some of the other filters and maybe you'll find an easier way to sort what you're looking for.

[marlais]

When looking at your PT4, set the statistics to sort by between dates 10/30/15-12/9/15. Then you'll need to go through each stake you played individually and sort the rake column by descending order. This should bring all the highest caps to the top. For any stakes under 4/8 you can start by looking for hands that charged above 2, all these are overraked. Additionally, any HU play that was capped above 0.5 at these stakes will be overrakes. Also, any 3-4 handed hands that were capped above 1. This is a little tedious, but you should be able to find the hands a little easier by doing this. Play around with some of the other filters and maybe you'll find an easier way to sort what you're looking for.

Thanks. I doubt I was affected, but I'll post if I find anything.

[TwitchySeal]

Updated OP with recent news involving overcharged rake last year:

• Taking Too Much Rake
  From 11/14 or earlier10/31 to 12/14 they raked cash games up to six times more than advertised.  They made a WEIRD STATEMENT after over a month, and have since ignored the issue and deletedANY QUESTIONS LIKE THIS (by dooglus)
  
  Update:  Betcoin addressed this situation on 3/3/16 [LINK] They admitted the rake cap was increased due to a technical issue and are now offering players the choice to have their account be reviewed to determine if/how much they were over charged  from 10/30/15-12/9/15 OR waive the review process and receive a Tournament entry worth 0.05 BTC  
  
  "If a player played at Betcoin Poker using the 100% rakeback promo, the player will technically owe funds to Betcoin.... If the player owes Betcoin funds, the player's account will be deducted those funds, however if the player chooses to accept a ticket in lieu of a review, the player will be awarded the ticket."
  
  This is a step in the right direction for sure, but it's disappointing that they seem only moderately apologetic for the actual glitch causing the rake increase, and no mention of why they allowed this to drag on for four months or any pledge to handle situations like this differently in the future
  
  I don't think their claim that players may "technically owe them" is valid considering the they failed to address the situation for over 4 months as well as the fact that they were aware of the issue on November 10th, and allowed it to continue for a month longer.  
  
  My response: [LINK]
  

[TwitchySeal]

Update:

Shortly after the "Betcoin Poker Return of Overcharged Rake or Daily Coin Ticket" statement last week I was un-banned from Betcoin without explanation.  I decided to bump my ticket from Sept 1 about the missing rakeback and status points that I was missing from WPN mtts.  I explained the issue back in November in this thread as well - [LINK]

I was expecting them to ignore the issue the way they had so many times before, maybe even just re-ban me, so I was surprised when they replied with a promise to make this right within a few days and how much was I owed.  I responded 2.5-5 btc and a detailed summary of why. Here's my explanation, if anyone is interested - [LINK]

A few days later they gave me 3,000 chips and 6,000 status points with the following message:

We have reviewed your statements and play in detail and have credited you with 3,000 mbtc to your account. We have also added 6,530 status points as reflected by your statements. Since this time everything has been running smoothly on Betcoin and we hope that it continues to run smoothly for you as well. We are here anytime if you need us and we appreciate having you here at Betcoin.

Obviously I'm happy to have gotten paid, I had written it off long ago - and I didn't really know how to react to be honest.  I've been putting off making this post because if I'm going to be honest, it's going to make Betcoin look bad, and they just gave me a decent amount of money, it doesn't seem right to say bad things about someone who just gave you money.  I suspect this very thought process has helped Betcoin a great deal in the past.  It's also the reason for corruption all over the world.

Clearly this thought process is irrational.

• The money they gave me was mine all along - yet it's so easy to look at them as generous for returning it to me.
• I think it's extremely unlikely they actually reviewed my play at all, they told me the same thing 5 months ago before stating " we are absolutely certain your VIP numbers are correct."
• What about everyone else?  Surely I'm not the only one owed for WPN Rakeback (although I may be missing the most)
• After 6 months of insisting I was wrong, banning me, etc, they admit they were wrong and pay me - without any sort of apology are assurance that players don't have to worry about this kind of behavior from them in the future.  This is much greater an issue than 3 BTC should solve.

I know many will read all this and consider it just more Betcoin Bashing, but really I'm just being as honest as I possibly can. 

If Betcoin continues to try and mask how unorganized and corrupt they are with lies, they deserve to fail and we should help.  If they are willing to show their pure intentions with transparency and willingness to learn from their mistakes instead of try to get away with them, none of these issues would really be issues at all.  Just honest mistakes.

[IamNotSure]

Meanwhile betcoin poker is AWOL

[DarkDays]

Betcoin poker "went down" for awhile yesterday and "came back up" today.

A message was posted to the front page...containing a phishing link.  Personally, I haven't received a phishing email containing that link (has anyone else?), but either way, it's very dangerous to be posting phishing links to all of your customers.  It's almost like...that was the goal?

[TwitchySeal]

Posted in their signature campaign thread.  Can't make this stuff up.

We hope everyone has had a great week.  Again, a special thank you to everyone for your support and continued involvement in our signature campaign and Betcoin.ag.  As with any company as it grows there will be detractors, those that say negative things, however often these few people are the ones that use Betcoin.ag the most.  Also, every company that achieves some notoriety will not be able to please 100% of the people 100% of the time, though we continue to try, search Google is a Scam for example.  Each comment from a detractor only serves to bump our thread which creates more interest in Betcoin and drives more traffic to Betcoin.  Once the traffic arrives, they stay and we are thankful for that.

We will continue to provide the best place for you to play and your referrals to play as well as a great signature campaign designed to reward you for your great work.  Our player base continues to grow and with growth comes detractors, however most of them openly spend their time at Betcoin.ag!  Actions speak much louder than words and we are happy to have them in our great community as well.  Thank you everybody.  

[betcoinplr]

I've been playing on Betcoin for about a year now, mostly poker but also some casino games.
This is my summary of Betcoin.ag as a gambling site and how they treat their paying customers.

Issues there have been on Betcoin.ag in past year and if they have been explained/fixed by staff:
-Overcharging rake in poker games for months:
Betcoin staff did announce they are "fixing" the rake,
however they never returned overcharged rake to players who were overcharged.
-LiveCasino stealing bets:
Happens when bet is not accepted to game because of lag or whatever, however said bet is not credited back
to player account. When playing multiple hands of Blackjack for example, it's not simple to track it. This has never
been answered by staff.
-Hacked or internal leaking of player data:
Not too long ago Betcoin forced all players password
changes "for additional security" and claimed they haven't been hacked. However most if not all
players got phising e-mails which started "Hello, (username)". Betcoin claims they have not been hacked
(forced password change to everyone usually means site has been hacked). Since then, there has been
atleast one other phishing wave.
-Rude and Agressive customer support:
When ever there is a issue regarding Betcoin.ag, listed above for example, staff never fixes losses
caused to players, or mostly never even give proper answers. Instead there is huge censorship in Betcoin
forums and public player chat, all negative comments about issues Betcoin is having are quickly censored
and replaced with overly positive posts and comments "hey guys i love betcoin there are no issues forget
about those and lets all be happy and keep gambling" written by paid shills. Also public player chat has
same paid shills. If you start to question site about their issues too much, you get banned, and, funny that,
first customer service i've ever seen calling you names if you question the site issues and ask for answers.
Betcoin.ag pays players for good positive reviews and deletes criticism. How will new player ever get accurate
info about site and would you consider that being good ethics by company who wishes to hold your moneys?
Proof here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/betcoin-ag-disgrace-online-poker-bitcoin-1571872/index3.html
and also in copypastes/screenshots below
-Scammers on site: They tolerate such behaviour to great lengths  instead of scamming players, most notorious
scammer there jonnyrocket/dpad was great example, even after impersonating Betcoin staff in his Skype scams to
steal coins from other players, he still wasn't banned. Now he is supposedly being banned though. If you use
Google and read more about Betcoin.ag, you see how Betcoin has hosted few large freerolls, which were very heavily
multiaccounted. However Betcoin didn't ban multiaccounters or seize their moneys, they on purpose allowed them to withdraw
and keep playing.


Examples below
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I questioned site issues and paid shill posts/censorship and got banned.
Also customer support called me a scammer and multiaccounter (absolutely not true, never have scammed or multiaccounted anywhere).
http://imgur.com/gallery/XP8PL/

btcjbtc
i want same deal as djn and mentat

Chat started
btcjbtc
thank you

Betcoin George joined the chat

Betcoin George
How may I help you?
btcjbtc
i'd like to get same deal as djn and mentat, regarding forum posts

Betcoin George
Send a ticket.
btcjbtc
i can write even better betcoin praising post

Betcoin George
We don't deal with that here on chat.
btcjbtc
why not? why only on ticket?

Betcoin George
A manager has to review it.

//////////////

Betcoin George
Expert Support Supervisor
?
Betcoin George joined the chat
Chat started

Betcoin George
Hello how may I help you?
btcjbtc
why i've been banned?

Betcoin George
Why? You go and lie on chat and said that I confirmed that we pay players to post.? I never said that I said send a ticket  and a manager will answer that for you? DO NOT use me to make yoursefl look good on player chat! why are you making trouble?

btcjbtc
how did i lie?

Betcoin George
I never told you we did that I told you to send a ticket that I could not help you on chat.
btcjbtc

Betcoin George
Send a ticket.

btcjbtc
i can write even better betcoin praising post

Betcoin George
We don't deal with that here on chat.
btcjbtc
why not? why only on ticket?

Betcoin George
A manager has to review it.
btcjbtc
my post before i send it to forums?

Betcoin George
Its funny because I see you have multiple accounts.

btcjbtc
i'm not trying to make me look "good" why would i?

Betcoin George
Why do you have many accounts.

btcjbtc
lol what is my another account? i've never had any other accounts on betcoin
it's like you'd ask me why i've killed my mother when i haven't
how come it takes 5mins to ban a player when i question shill posters, but scammers run around freely for years

Betcoin George
So me telling you to make a ticket somehow became me saying yes they will pay you to post good things?

How does that come to be out of me saying send a ticket.

btcjbtc
yea you said getting paid for shill posts will be discusedd in tickets.
Also you have paid campaign: https://www.betcoin.ag/introducing-betcoinag-bitcoin-talk-signature-campaign-get-paid-promote-betcoinag

//// (in this chat my name is "review of betcoin", contacted customer support live chat other day again while being anonymous)

   
Betcoin Stuart
Customer support
👍👎
review of betcoin
hello

Chat started
Betcoin Stuart joined the chat

Betcoin Stuart
Hello
How can I help?

review of betcoin
I've written a review of Betcoin.ag to be posted for Bitcointalk and Twoplustwo + social media, would like to have staff member to review and comment on it before posting?

Betcoin Stuart
Thank you for that we appreciate it
you can create a ticket with it
if you want to be reviewed by high management

review of betcoin
also is there Bitcoin Talk campaign active yeat

Betcoin Stuart
you can request the reward by ticket also
Well I am not aware of it at the moment
I think it is
it is best you create a ticket about it

review of betcoin
so you are not able to check and comment it now?
why is creating ticket necessary?

Betcoin Stuart
Not, that has to be reviewed by high management
review of betcoin
what amounts are rewards for very good posts typically?

Betcoin Stuart
they will make the decision of the reward
it depends

review of betcoin
one more question

Betcoin Stuart
yes?

review of betcoin
what would you say about case where there is such obvious paid post on forums. a player points out it is made by paid poster and that betcoin staff pays for such posts. player contacts live support and live support confirms posts are getting paid (just like you did confirm now)

Betcoin Stuart
Well that is high management decision

review of betcoin
why do you then ban such player just for saying some post is paid?

Betcoin Stuart
Again
please create a ticket about that

review of betcoin
so you mean you encourage postst that are not true, but are very positive, instead of actualy reviews?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of my several censored posts from Betcoin forums:

From player perspective this is how Betcoin could improve their service if they want to take advantage of huge market available in Bitcoin gambling and be a very top go-to site for players in all games.
1) Security
What players except as most important things when playing on X site, is that their money is safe, and they can trust their games are safe.

Current situation:
Pros: Bankrolls on site seem to be safe and I have always had fast withdrawals.
Cons: Issues regarding extra rake being charged, Issues regarding handling BBJP-freeroll, Issues regarding colluders, cheaters and multiaccounters and how they are handled.

Suggestion how Betcoin could improve:
Show players you are here for players and you want players to keep playing your games.
Be straightforward and strict with your policies; ban cheaters/scammers/colluders, return money to their victims (instead of keeping it yourself or even more LOL returning it to them.) If accidentally extra rake
has been charged, return it to victims, do not distribute it to everyone in form of freeroll for example.
Of course scammers and cheaters will create new accounts under new IP's, but fear of losing your bankroll
when getting caught or losing hardly grinded vip-status with rakeback %'s makes you really think twice if
you want to get your account confiscated.

2) Public relationships and communication
What players expect when playing on X site, is that staff communicates to players of all issues honestly and as transparent as possible. When you do that, players trust you way more.

Current situation:
Pros: Hard to think of anything positive of the current situation.
Cons: Many issues regarding communications in recent history. Issues have been censored and quieted down (extra rake, bbjp, colluders, multiaccounter, freeroll-catastrophy, most notorious scammer in Betcoin aka jonnyrocket).

Suggestion how Betcoin could Improve:
Create firm policies and communicate to players honestly and transparent.
When there's an issue, it's always good to let people know about it - and how you will fix it, instead
of waiting for people stop talking about unpleasent issue. Whenever you fail to address and/or fix an issue, your PR takes huge hit longterm, afterall you can find everything from internets. On poker side of Betcoin specially, more action and more tables generate more action, it's like an avalanche. Whenever you drive players to other sites, traffic and action takes a long term hit. Damage is not just missing out one players rake.

I'm personally quite pissed to Betcoin for few reasons listed above and am playing on other site as we speak. I really like many things on Betcoin and would love to play here, I really really hope your staff and management can improve their attitude and make Betcoin really a great place to gamble and have community fun on, instead of passive-agressively doing whatever you can because you can.

Regards,
btcjbtc
---
Customer support in public player chat (after my post above got censored I wanted to chat with support,
"Betcoin Jessica" is manager of Betcoin customer support. btcjbtc is my nick. "OHYEAH" they are referring to, is old reg
and I think he is Twitchy_Seal or something like that in bitcointalk/2+2, however when I bring up site issues I want to
talk about, I get publicly called for being multiaccounter and same person as OHYEAH-player (because he has criticized Betcoin in past aswell).
Such silly behavior:

10:10amBetcoin Jessica: Support matters and feedback of that type is handled at the support level and not public forum.
10:10amStareYouDown: lol
10:11amStareYouDown: Jessica agrees with me.
10:11ambtcjbtc: i'd love to play here and want to address issues that are stopping me to play here
10:11amStareYouDown: now she going in date with me, sorry Longsh0t
10:11ambtcjbtc: From player perspective this is how Betcoin could improve their service if they want to take advantage of huge market available in Bitcoin gambling and be a very top go-to site for players in all games. 1) Security
What players except as most important things when playing on X site, is that their money is safe, and they can trust their games are safe. Current situation:
Pros: Bankrolls on site seem to be safe and I have always had fast withdrawals.
Cons: Issues regarding extra rake being charged, Issues regarding handling BBJP-freeroll, Issues regarding colluders, cheaters and multiaccounters and how they are handled. Suggestion how Betcoin could improve:
Show players you are here for players and you want players to keep playing your games.
Be straightforward and strict with your policies; ban cheaters/scammers/colluders, return money to their victims (instead of keeping it yourself or even more LOL returning it to them.) If accidentally extra rake
has been charged, return it to victims, do not distribute it to everyone in form of freeroll for example.
Of course scammers and cheaters will create new accounts under new IP's, but fear of losing your bankroll
when getting caught or losing hardly grinded vip-status with rakeback %'s makes you really think twice if
you want to get your account confiscated. 2) Public relationships and communication
What players expect when playing on X site, is that staff communicates to players of all issues honestly and as transparent as possible. When you do that, players trust you way more. Current situation:
Pros: Hard to think of anything positive of the current situation.
Cons: Many issues regarding communications in recent history. Issues have been censored and quieted down (extra rake, bbjp, colluders, multiaccounter, freeroll-catastrophy, most notorious scammer in Betcoin aka jonnyrocket). Suggestion how Betcoin could Improve:
Create firm policies and communicate to players honestly and transparent.
When there's an issue, it's always good to let people know about it - and how you will fix it, instead
of waiting for people stop talking about unpleasent issue. Whenever you fail to address and/or fix an issue, your PR takes huge hit longterm, afterall you can find everything from internets. On poker side of Betcoin specially, more action and more tables generate more action, it's like an avalanche. Whenever you drive players to other sites, traffic and action takes a long term hit. Damage is not just missing out one players rake. I'm personally quite pissed to Betcoin for few reasons listed above and am playing on other site as we speak. I really like many things on Betcoin and would love to play here, I really really hope your staff and management can improve their attitude and make Betcoin really a great place to gamble and have community fun on, instead of passive-agressively doing whatever you can because you can. Regards,
btcjbtc
10:11amBetcoin Jessica: I should note there was some deliberation, but when you say in the post that you are very disappointed and play at another site and then your next post says you are playing at Betcoin, it's not clear what your intentions are truly.
10:12amStareYouDown: Careful, you do not want to hit the "OHYEAH LEVEL"
10:12amStareYouDown: lol
10:12amBetcoin Jessica: SYD who says this isn't OHYEAH?
10:13amBetcoin Jessica: Excellent statement SYD.
10:13amStareYouDown: Be back in 1 hour, keep it friendly and peaceful up in here please. I am putting my pistol away for the moment.
10:14amBetcoin Jessica: Play the daily coin later.
10:14ambtcjbtc: my point is
10:14ambtcjbtc: at the moment i play on other site as i've stated on forums multiple times
10:14amStareYouDown: i'll check on it Jessica and ill be in there
10:14ambtcjbtc: i would love to play on betcoin but certain issues should be solved
10:14amBetcoin Jessica: What forums have you stated this on?
10:14ambtcjbtc: betcoin forums
10:14ambtcjbtc: in jonny threads etc
10:15ambtcjbtc: how i stopped affiliate links and withdrew my chips etc and warned my affialiates about certain scammers
10:15amBetcoin Jessica: You should play where you are happiest.
10:15ambtcjbtc: you cant seriously claim your sencorship is because controversy which site i play on, but you want to hide awkward issues
10:16amBetcoin Jessica: There is a fine line when operating a gaming site and having a community and it's difficult to find the exact point at times.
10:16ambtcjbtc: of course
10:17ambtcjbtc: why cant issues be talked about openly
10:17amBetcoin Jessica: They can on other forums.
10:17ambtcjbtc: why you want to hide issues (scammers, extra rake etc) from Betcoin forums? so people couldn't know what happens?
10:18amBetcoin Jessica: Who are you really btcjbtc?
10:18ambtcjbtc: why can i post "your service is great i love you"
10:18ambtcjbtc: this is my only ever account on betcoin
10:19ambtcjbtc: but why i can't post "there are these issues in your service and this is suggestion to fix them"
10:19amBetcoin Jessica: Not everyone believes this including many players who have given some pretty good feedback on it.
10:19ambtcjbtc: you just accept good feedback?
10:20ambtcjbtc: whats the good feedback about you charging extra rake for weeks from everyone?
10:20amBetcoin Jessica: We accept all feedback and it also isn't posted.
10:20ambtcjbtc: whats the good feedback about jonnyrockets scams?
10:20amRozay: Betcoin Jessica: Who are you really btcjbtc?
10:20amRozay: something we dont know jessica?
10:20amBetcoin Jessica: We know who he is Rozay.
10:21ambtcjbtc: Jessica clearly suspects I'm OHYEAH or something like that as he was pissed to betcoin also
10:21amRozay: did i miss the daily train this morning syd?
10:21ambtcjbtc: in bitcointalk
10:21amRozay: oooo
10:21amBetcoin Jessica: His account has been marked for months.
10:21amRozay: thought you might have been someone else
10:21amBetcoin Jessica: We just wondered how long it would take to show his true self.
10:21amBetcoin Jessica: The irony is he plays all the time, we monitor everything.
10:22ambtcjbtc: lol you mean my account?
10:22amRozay: I can believe it, people have alter egos around here
10:22amRozay: btc think you may have anothe rbetcoin account
10:22amBetcoin Jessica: It's crazy Rozay.
10:22ambtcjbtc: this is actually good material
10:23amBetcoin Jessica: There's always great material here at Betcoin.
10:23ambtcjbtc: actually staff saying this is my alt account and i'm someone else?
btcjbtc: this is actually good material
10:23amBetcoin Jessica: There's always great material here at Betcoin.
10:23ambtcjbtc: actually staff saying this is my alt account and i'm someone else?
10:23amNerdGirl: Good morning all
10:23amNerdGirl: Good morning Jessica!
10:23amBetcoin Jessica: Hello NerdGirl
10:23amRozay: gm nerb
10:23amIdz4dealz: Wow only been away few mins and pow. Morning every1
10:24amSharon Bluntz: hi I dz
10:24amBetcoin Jessica: btcj actually we are saying we don't know who you are just as we don't know 90% of our great players.
10:24amBetcoin Jessica: I must run, but good luck to everyone.
10:24ambtcjbtc: wow so who am i actually then if this wouldn't be my one and only account ever here?
10:26amBetcoin Jessica: You will get in Idz, good luck.
10:27amIdz4dealz: thanks Jessica
10:27ambtcjbtc: surreal
10:27ambtcjbtc: i give feedback of multiaccounters and other betcoin cheater issues
10:28ambtcjbtc: and OFFICIAL SUPPORT claims i'm multiaccounting here and my account has been flagged for long
10:28ambtcjbtc: i'm actually speechless
10:28amBetcoin Jessica: Thank you btcjbtc.
10:29ambtcjbtc: anything else you want to charge me of?=
10:29amBetcoin Jessica: Treason.
10:29amStareYouDown: loll
10:29ambtcjbtc: sec using google translate
10:29amSharon Bluntz: lol
10:29ambtcjbtc: are you fucking crazy?
btcjbtc: sec using google translate
10:29amSharon Bluntz: lol
10:29ambtcjbtc: are you fucking crazy?
10:30amStareYouDown: lol !!!
10:30amRozay: lmao
10:30amIdz4dealz: only been lol
10:30amBetcoin Jessica: Lol, we shall bring you to the United Nations for a hearing on charges of treason.
10:30ambtcjbtc: ok
10:30amBetcoin Jessica: SYD, Rozay round him up and receive your bounty.
10:31ambtcjbtc: this is actually some good shit to 2+2 and bitcointalk how support behaves
10:31amBetcoin Jessica: In all seriousness btcjbtc, we do appreciate your feedback and are working hard on everything.
10:31amRozay: Betcoin Jessica: In all seriousness btcjbtc, we do appreciate your feedback and are working hard on everything.
10:31amBetcoin Jessica: Things, will continue to get better and better.
10:31amStareYouDown: Hold up though
10:31amStareYouDown: how much is the bounty for.
10:31amRozay: btc you will only show its a real person with a sense of humor
10:31amBetcoin Jessica: Also, this is player chat not support as has been stated many times.
10:31amRozay: and depending on price i might be at your door with syd
10:32amBetcoin Jessica: We don't address support in player chat or the forum. Maybe that's where you are getting confused btcjbtc.
10:32amIdz4dealz: Think if you disturb a swan that's close to treason coz they belong to queen
10:32ambtcjbtc: totally inappropriate behaviour Jessica


SUMMARY OR TL;DR

If you're looking for place to play poker with bitcoins, I recommend www.swcpoker.eu, more players and more games than on Betcoin
without needing to worry about such heavy site issues there are on Betcoin regarding player funds etc.

[TwitchySeal]

Finally got a response about the user data being compromised in early Janurary from Betcoin staff.



Obviously the second and third paragraphs are Betcoins standard passive aggressive BS we've all heard.

Pretty sure the claim that only 20% of players got the email is 100% bullshit and they will just ignore questions about it, but I try anyway....



And a classic statement from Jessica. (Keep in mind this was the first they have responded to the issue in 84 days.

[DarkDays]

If their only claims have been "we were not hacked" and "we know exactly how many players received the phishing emails", the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Betcoin themselves have been sending us the phishing emails.  Or that they sold our information and know how many user's personal data they sold and what was done with it.  There is no other way for those statements to both be true.

[TwitchySeal]

I recently outted Lorylore, a member of their campaign, for having multiple Hero Status accounts used only to grind out signature campaigns.  Nearly every post was 1 or 2 sentences in one of those threads obviously used to get post counts up, often several posts a minute.

Proof of Multiple Hero status accounts: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15064092#msg15064092

Betcoins response:

All payments should be received and again we thank everyone for their support and participation.  The demand has been overwhelming.  We also always appreciate all feedback and bumps to our thread but will always our own independent investigation therefore there is no need to worry about personal attacks guys.  Just keep up the great work and we will always take a few extra bumps to our thread! 

Needless to say, lorylore is still a member.

Speaking of "independent investigations"

Still waiting for the result of their investigation into how scammers got player login info.  They have been investigating for almost 6 months now!

Here's the support ticket I have open on the issue:

[Fortify]

Glad to see they credited at least one person in an attempt to make it right. It's awful to see a phishing link found it's way on to their homepage though. Not surprised though - their website was suffering problems the other week and throwing out all sorts of errors. An error being displayed on a casino website is a big no-no as it can expose all sorts of information which allow attackers in. Pretty sure some part of it was on the Joomla content management system - which is fine but opens you up to mass market exploits.

[TwitchySeal]

Got another one to add to the list:

Betcoin player hits progressive Jackpot worth over BTC500, Betsoft won't pay and Betcoin attempts to cover it up with lies


Pretty serious accusation against Betcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.0

Cliffs:

JasonOrt bets max with .5 denom on Glam-Life and triggers 4 extra spins.  

On 4th spin he gets 5 yacht symbols and wins 1000 credits, not jackpot.

Pay table says:


(No other rules found anywhere about Jackpot)




A) Betcoin tells him he was not eligible because it was a free spin and attempt to shame him by telling him most players know what he does not:

most players understand that it is a bonus or free round and there are different outcomes because of that.

Then lock his thread: https://www.betcoin.ag/should-pay-line-have-won-jackpot-glam-life, and delete most of the comments.

Jasons Defense:
GreedyGoblins is another slot with a progressive Jackpot offered by the same service provider.  
Here you can see they clarify that even though the freespin round offers multipliers, the jackpot can not be multiplied.  This implies that the jackpot is not excluded during free spins.



B) Betsoft Gaming tells him he was not eligible because he did not bet max with the highest denomination.

Thank you for your inquiry. We can confirm that your win was correct in this situation. A maximum bet for this game is the highest denomination which is 1.00, whereas in this particular round, you bet 0.50, even though you chose 'Max Bet', the jackpot is only won when it is the maximum bet (1.00).

Jasons Defense:

Every denomination clearly has an independant jackpot.  When you switch denominations, the jackpot changes.  

On casinolistings.com they track bovadas Glam Life Jackpot.  It's clear they are independant and all denominations are eligible:



The owner of casinolistings.com also chimed in: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.msg15313569#msg15313569


Finally we have the comments of plo8monster, Betcoins lone site "pro" and the father half of the father/son chat mods.

While being discussed in chat he sided with Betcoin immediately:

plo8monster: thats totally not true lol ungod ... the bonus max out at 1000chips, and the vendor has that rule .. betcoin dont pay it the vendor does ... you guys all jump on bandwagon ... but these are vendors that do sports and casino games ..... I dont have time to get into this tonight ...but the vendor limits bonus wins @ 1000 chips .... if he were spending his money and made that spin he would be Phat with coin

After the story was clear, 2 days later, he made these statements:

plo8monster: i told you im not gonna to join that conversation ..im a poker pro smart enuf not to play slots ...i played maybe 10 times in my life
plo8monster: i am not knowledgable about slots
plo8monster: slots is not something i can help with i know zero about them
plo8monster: I had a roomate at that time playing my slots and showing me how with my bonuses ... but i am not a slots player
 plo8monster: why ya gotta be such a biiiish twitchy
plo8monster: this issue with Jason is NOT MY BUSINESS ... how many times must i tell you same thing it is waste of time

Hopefully Betcoin will have time to respond to this sometime between thanking users for kind words and going home for the weekend.


Oh almost forgot, the jackpot was 1,007,249.91 credits at .5mbtc denomination.  (503.6249 BTC current value of ~$383,000)

[TwitchySeal]

Cleaning up OP, dumping some info here
Users involved:

• Betcoin.ag
  
  
• plo8monster: Betcoins official "site pro" and "moderator".  I don't think he is acting out of greed like the rest, but it seems he went blind the day decided to be loyal to Betcoin.ag no matter what.  I hope he wakes up.  (He was previously the "site pro" at Satoshi Poker.  He remained loyal to the last day, when they had to sell the site to repay their players after the owner stole all the deposits. )
  
  
• XiaoXiao: Betcoin Affiliate:  Any semi-serious poker player at Betcoin is basically forced to create an account under Xiaoxiao because of a mysterious deal he has which allows him to return 40% of rake paid to the player weekly.  (Other affiliates can not compete, he cashes in on his players sports/casino play and corners market)  He has a huge thread you can find HERE where he claims to be a "players advocate" but practices the same despicable tactics as Betcoin: lying or ignoring the serious issues, and spamming his own thread with deceptive promotional material.
  
  
• ftwbtc1: This is Betcoins Shill #1 Don't be fooled by the recent non-betcoin post history - Betcoin management likely controls or has access to this account. (More info on that connection HERE )
  
  noobtc: alt of ftwbtc1,I'm certain of this.
  
  

[hec4mu]

Hi guys,

I'd like to share my story of how betcoin fucked me. I'm going to keep this as short and simple as period and let all the screenshots do the talking. Basically made 4 sportsbook bets that were legitimately placed and after the event has finished, MANY hours after, betcoin changed my original bets from kills/match to rounds/match.

http://imgur.com/a/3HjMs
Shows bets placed in both wallet transactions as well as sportsbook history.

http://imgur.com/a/Fi8qi
shows how they changed my original bet i made from kills/round to rounds/match. Also shows many discussions I've had with chat "support" about where betcoin is located and who they are licensed by. Correct me if I'm wrong but last time I checked Antigua and Costa Rica were not the same.

http://imgur.com/a/FA7AT
Support ticket created and response. Mario, in charge of the sportsbook at betcoin, states that there was a mix up of market names. That's funny because whenever I make a bet and accidentally make a wrong bet, whether it be the team, over/under, etc, there is no "oh I made a mistake, I take it back, cancel and refund my mistake."

If there is anyone that actually knows if betcoin is licensed by WPN and how I would contact the licensing authorities or whoever I'm supposed to contact, I'd appreciate it as I would like to make a formal complaint. Thanks for your time. 

[marlais]

If there is anyone that actually knows if betcoin is licensed by WPN and how I would contact the licensing authorities or whoever I'm supposed to contact, I'd appreciate it as I would like to make a formal complaint. Thanks for your time.  

I am afraid that you may be SOL, like jasonort. Betcoin pays WPN to have WPN tourneys on their site, but WPN does not license Betcoin. If they are licensed at all, it is not stated on their site. This is the closest I could find:

25. GOVERNING LAW
These Agreements shall be governed by and interpreted in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong. You irrevocably agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Curacao in The Netherlands Antilles for the settlement of any dispute or matters arising out of or concerning these Agreements or their enforceability.

You could try contacting Curacao eGaming and see if they are licensed through them:

https://www.curacao-egaming.com/

For complaints please mail to
complaints@curacao-egaming.com

[hec4mu]

If there is anyone that actually knows if betcoin is licensed by WPN and how I would contact the licensing authorities or whoever I'm supposed to contact, I'd appreciate it as I would like to make a formal complaint. Thanks for your time.  

I am afraid that you may be SOL, like jasonort. Betcoin pays WPN to have WPN tourneys on their site, but WPN does not license Betcoin. If they are licensed at all, it is not stated on their site. This is the closest I could find:

25. GOVERNING LAW
These Agreements shall be governed by and interpreted in accordance with the laws of Hong Kong. You irrevocably agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Curacao in The Netherlands Antilles for the settlement of any dispute or matters arising out of or concerning these Agreements or their enforceability.

You could try contacting Curacao eGaming and see if they are licensed through them:

https://www.curacao-egaming.com/

For complaints please mail to
complaints@curacao-egaming.com

Hey thanks for the reply and advice. I'm aware that most bitcoin sites aren't licensed but I'll try contacting curacao.

[marlais]

Hey thanks for the reply and advice. I'm aware that most bitcoin sites aren't licensed but I'll try contacting curacao.

These guys have no authority over Betcoin, but they do collect player sportsbook complaints and post them to their site:

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/betting-sites/betcoin/

[actmyname]

Hey thanks for the reply and advice. I'm aware that most bitcoin sites aren't licensed but I'll try contacting curacao.

These guys have no authority over Betcoin, but they do collect player sportsbook complaints and post them to their site:

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/betting-sites/betcoin/

The more people we get away from Betcoin the better. These incidents might occur in the future affecting greater pools of people. I guess we can consider hec4mu and jasonort to be martyrs against Betcoin, helping to bring light to what they truly do?

@hec4mu, try to speak to as many people as you can about this incident. Do not sit on it and let Betcoin shove it under the rug and ignore it.

[hec4mu]

Hey thanks for the reply. I've been w/ bitcoin for well over 2 years now. This isn't the first time that they've done shady stuff. There are multiple instances where they have graded my bets as losing bets and will only correct them AFTER I spend hours if not days contacting them and going out of my way with proof. Not to mention status points not accumulating correctly. Betcoin William changing that status of bets. Sportsbook bets not showing up in uncleared bets, yet the btc is deducted from wallet transactions and betcoin not doing anything about it until yet again I have to spend hours if not days going out of my way to do what they should have done in the first place and refund me for their bugged bets. List goes on and on.

Can anyone link me the story about jasonort?

[marlais]

Can anyone link me the story about jasonort?

BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.0

Betcoin.ag, Betsoft Force Shafted Jackpot Winner into Agreement
https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/07/betcoin-ag-betsoft-force-shafted-jackpot-winner-into-agreement

[hec4mu]

Hey thanks for the reply and advice. I'm aware that most bitcoin sites aren't licensed but I'll try contacting curacao.

These guys have no authority over Betcoin, but they do collect player sportsbook complaints and post them to their site:

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/betting-sites/betcoin/

Hey Marlais,

I just found this http://www.sportsbookreview.com/sports-betting-news/bitcoin-betting-site-betcoin-ag-addresses-live-betting-complaint-73208/

Bascially they deduct the funds from your wallet as if you made the bet. Doesn't show up in sportsbook cleared or uncleared bets. I have to go out of my own way just to get a REFUND. They never honored my winning slips nor did they ever automatically refund me. I had to waste hours upon hours if not days to get a refund. If they ever did say anything it was that "we are working on it."

and I have over 20 bets (maybe over 30) that are exactly the same stretching from the past year. I just made screen shots of all my support tickets just in case betcoin tries to tamper with that as this wouldn't be the first time they tampered with my account/bets.

Also do i just post my complaints under the forums? I'll look for the betcoin forum if there is one. Going to upload all of my screen shots from support for the past 2 years. Will upload to imgur and do this all tomorrow. Thanks for the help.

[TwitchySeal]

i recommend getting in touch with the people at thepogg.com , ive been very impressed with the way they handle player complaints.

[hec4mu]

i recommend getting in touch with the people at thepogg.com , ive been very impressed with the way they handle player complaints.

Isn't this for casino complaints only?

[TwitchySeal]

i recommend getting in touch with the people at thepogg.com , ive been very impressed with the way they handle player complaints.

Isn't this for casino complaints only?

Not sure what you mean.
They work with casinos, software providers and regulatory bodies to resolve player complaints though.

[mrhelpful]

Got another one to add to the list:

Betcoin player hits progressive Jackpot worth over BTC500, Betsoft won't pay and Betcoin attempts to cover it up with lies


Pretty serious accusation against Betcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.0

Cliffs:

JasonOrt bets max with .5 denom on Glam-Life and triggers 4 extra spins.  

On 4th spin he gets 5 yacht symbols and wins 1000 credits, not jackpot.

Pay table says:


(No other rules found anywhere about Jackpot)




A) Betcoin tells him he was not eligible because it was a free spin and attempt to shame him by telling him most players know what he does not:

most players understand that it is a bonus or free round and there are different outcomes because of that.

Then lock his thread: https://www.betcoin.ag/should-pay-line-have-won-jackpot-glam-life, and delete most of the comments.

Jasons Defense:
GreedyGoblins is another slot with a progressive Jackpot offered by the same service provider.  
Here you can see they clarify that even though the freespin round offers multipliers, the jackpot can not be multiplied.  This implies that the jackpot is not excluded during free spins.



B) Betsoft Gaming tells him he was not eligible because he did not bet max with the highest denomination.

Thank you for your inquiry. We can confirm that your win was correct in this situation. A maximum bet for this game is the highest denomination which is 1.00, whereas in this particular round, you bet 0.50, even though you chose 'Max Bet', the jackpot is only won when it is the maximum bet (1.00).

Jasons Defense:

Every denomination clearly has an independant jackpot.  When you switch denominations, the jackpot changes.  

On casinolistings.com they track bovadas Glam Life Jackpot.  It's clear they are independant and all denominations are eligible:



The owner of casinolistings.com also chimed in: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.msg15313569#msg15313569


Finally we have the comments of plo8monster, Betcoins lone site "pro" and the father half of the father/son chat mods.

While being discussed in chat he sided with Betcoin immediately:

plo8monster: thats totally not true lol ungod ... the bonus max out at 1000chips, and the vendor has that rule .. betcoin dont pay it the vendor does ... you guys all jump on bandwagon ... but these are vendors that do sports and casino games ..... I dont have time to get into this tonight ...but the vendor limits bonus wins @ 1000 chips .... if he were spending his money and made that spin he would be Phat with coin

After the story was clear, 2 days later, he made these statements:

plo8monster: i told you im not gonna to join that conversation ..im a poker pro smart enuf not to play slots ...i played maybe 10 times in my life
plo8monster: i am not knowledgable about slots
plo8monster: slots is not something i can help with i know zero about them
plo8monster: I had a roomate at that time playing my slots and showing me how with my bonuses ... but i am not a slots player
 plo8monster: why ya gotta be such a biiiish twitchy
plo8monster: this issue with Jason is NOT MY BUSINESS ... how many times must i tell you same thing it is waste of time

Hopefully Betcoin will have time to respond to this sometime between thanking users for kind words and going home for the weekend.


Oh almost forgot, the jackpot was 1,007,249.91 credits at .5mbtc denomination.  (503.6249 BTC current value of ~$383,000)

The thread for that I remember reading just turned me off so yeah wont be even bothering with playing over there.

How they honor the situation - despite every casino being a greyish area for everyone / but every casino operator handles things differently.. so who am I to say.

But if I was the person who won hitting that and not getting what was promised - i would be so jaded.

I mean if you dont have the money to pay someone out like those progressive jackpots- then atleast make an attempt on a payment system in the customers eyes.

[hec4mu]

i recommend getting in touch with the people at thepogg.com , ive been very impressed with the way they handle player complaints.

Isn't this for casino complaints only?

Not sure what you mean.
They work with casinos, software providers and regulatory bodies to resolve player complaints though.

My problem is with betcoin sportsbook. Do they still handle sportsbook player complaints?

[game-protect]

Hi guys,

I'd like to share my story of how betcoin fucked me. I'm going to keep this as short and simple as period and let all the screenshots do the talking. Basically made 4 sportsbook bets that were legitimately placed and after the event has finished, MANY hours after, betcoin changed my original bets from kills/match to rounds/match.

http://imgur.com/a/3HjMs
Shows bets placed in both wallet transactions as well as sportsbook history.

http://imgur.com/a/Fi8qi
shows how they changed my original bet i made from kills/round to rounds/match. Also shows many discussions I've had with chat "support" about where betcoin is located and who they are licensed by. Correct me if I'm wrong but last time I checked Antigua and Costa Rica were not the same.

http://imgur.com/a/FA7AT
Support ticket created and response. Mario, in charge of the sportsbook at betcoin, states that there was a mix up of market names. That's funny because whenever I make a bet and accidentally make a wrong bet, whether it be the team, over/under, etc, there is no "oh I made a mistake, I take it back, cancel and refund my mistake."

If there is anyone that actually knows if betcoin is licensed by WPN and how I would contact the licensing authorities or whoever I'm supposed to contact, I'd appreciate it as I would like to make a formal complaint. Thanks for your time.  

The domain betcoin.ag is nowhere licensed! Only incorporated companies could apply for a license.

I think it is not difficult to realize that betcoin.ag is a blatant lie:

Licensed?

Betcoin Robert: WPN, Antigua and Barbuda

Betcoin.ag TOS: Hong Kong, Curacao, Costa Rica


Located?

Betcoin Robert: Costa Rica, Antigua and Barbuda, London

Betcoin.ag TOS: Hong Kong, Curacao, Costa Rica

[TheButterZone]

They won't delete your fucking account after 5 days of your request ticket for that being open, spamming all the while even though you unchecked all notification settings>email notifications.

sometimes it can take up to 24 hours to get a response

[Fortify]

They won't delete your fucking account after 5 days of your request ticket for that being open, spamming all the while even though you unchecked all notification settings>email notifications.

sometimes it can take up to 24 hours to get a response

Yeah, it seems like since this thread they have given up all pretence of being a "legit" operation. While they have no obligation to delete your account, the very least they should do it stop sending out spam emails. I'm pretty sure it is illegal (according to CAN-SPAM) for them to send emails without a straight forward way to unsubscribe. That would involve getting a lawyer though and may be expensive..

[game-protect]

Betcoin.ag extort 500 Bitcoins Jackpot winner for "settlement"

[TwitchySeal]

Betcoin has abandoned their main account (last post over a month ago) which has tons a neg rep and is posting from multiple other accounts instead.

- Betcoin Support <---newest account
- BetcoinPoker
- BetcoinCasino
Probably missing a some other accounts.

Management has been caught red-handed pretending to be  other players and separate " only CS people" in the past. 

[TwitchySeal]

"Betcoin Poker" (minimal neg rep) posts at 7:18 pm
"Betcoin.ag" (lots of neg rep and OP of their self mod thread) deletes my post 2 min later.

Scum.

Betcoin.ag Feedback Thread - Earn a 250 GTD Thank You Freeroll Ticket

Betcoin.ag would like to thank you for continuing to make Betcoin a better place and we would like your feedback.

There are many upcoming improvements to Betcoin forthcoming, however we want to hear from you in three sentences or more, what you like about Betcoin and what can be improved here:

https://www.betcoin.ag/betcoinag-feedback-thread-earn-250-gtd-thank-you-freeroll-ticket

Thank you all for everything and we will continue to get better.

Thank you to everyone that provided feedback. We are going through the information and will award tickets soon.  We had over 50 quality responses. 

https://www.betcoin.ag/betcoinag-feedback-thread-earn-250-gtd-thank-you-freeroll-ticket

A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by the starter of a self-moderated topic. There are no rules of self-moderation, so this deletion cannot be appealed.

You can create a new topic if you are unsatisfied with this one. If the topic-starter is scamming, post about it in Scam Accusations.

Why aren't you posting from your main account?

I thoght maybe you lost password, but it shows you as online right now.

[Lucky7btc]

This place should be avoid. CS Agent Simon is a complete Asshole anyone who plays here has to be mindless.

[game-protect]

This place should be avoid. CS Agent Simon is a complete Asshole anyone who plays here has to be mindless.

If you take a look at their dumb promoters, it is clear that their target audience are mindless people. Cash game players sit with $10 at the tables, that says it all. They need 70 promoters to accrue some $10 cash game players.

[game-protect]

i recommend getting in touch with the people at thepogg.com , ive been very impressed with the way they handle player complaints.

ThePogg declared the exorted and juridical not existing "settlement" as a resolved case. I informed them, with all relevant info, that this case is not resolved, but they did not publicise my post and they did not use my info to rework their statement.

http://thepogg.com/complaint/betcoin-ag-progressive-jackpot-was-not-paid-for-winning-spin/

[DarkDays]

Pure speculation but I get the feeling that Betcoin might be up to more shenanigans.  I'd suggest everyone fully withdraw all of their funds and protect yourself.

[DarkDays]

Betcoin, mired in scandal after their hand-picked affiliate stole everyone's money, has started deleting posts regarding the situation in their thread.

STAY

AWAY

Seriously guys, even if you love Betcoin, withdraw your money NOW.  You can always put it back on.  You can't get it back if they run off with it.

[TwitchySeal]

Just came across this ridiculous post from a few months ago of Betcoin trying to revise history.  I haven't been keeping up for a couple years, but the OP of this thread, as well as this one prove that most of what they are saying only a few months ago is a lie.

(also, they got hacked again earlier this year - all players emails, username, account balances and support tickets have been compromised....I think this is the third time?)

Hi guys, we just came across this review and we wish to thank the OP and comment on a few things that were brought up.

The only negative mark in the site's history took place in 2016. What happened here, was that a player had a losing spin on a bonus, and because Betsoft had a misprint in their terms, it appeared to be a jackpot spin. This was quickly resolved amicably with the player, and he continued to play at our site. Proof of this resolution can be found here:
https://thepogg.com/complaint/betcoin-ag-progressive-jackpot-was-not-paid-for-winning-spin/
And here (please review his comment):
https://www.betcoin.ag/jasonort-case-resolution
Despite the situation being resolved, our competitors spread this rumor about the site to attempt to ruin our reputation.'

Since that situation 3 years ago, there have been 0 negative marks about Betcoin.ag. Every site, of course, will have some naysayers, but there have been no legitimate complaints about Betcoin since that 1 misrepresented incident. Betcoin has never had an unpaid winner. If we had, you would have heard about it. We recently had a player who won the equivalent of nearly $400,000 USD, at the time, on a sign-up bonus and he was paid out within a day. That was more than the amount of the jackpot that was supposedly denied to this other player from 2016. Here is a link to this story:
https://bitcoinchaser.com/casino/betcoin-player-wins-55-btc-welcome-bonus/

When the new group took over Betcoin in 2017, this jackpot situation was analysed carefully, and we decided that this product has too much potential to not get involved. Our negative feedback on BitcoinTalk is solely based on that on that one incident so we are understandably trying to get some of these reversed.When the situation occurred we were -512 rating and now we are -31 and continuing to get better everyday.  Every trusted member we have reached out to and gotten a hold of has changed their negative feedback. The only ones left either could not be reached or demanded money in exchange for the reversal. We have worked very hard on improving our reputation as well as the product. Our withdrawals and support tickets are both averaging around 15 minutes and we are hoping to improve on even that.

If anyone has any questions or concerns, please shoot us a DM or a support ticket through Betcoin.ag and we will be happy to address them for you. Thank you all and best of luck to you!