Beware of PayPal and other reversible transfer services

[generickid]

You could exchange in person...


http://btcnearme.com/



If you like my info, then please donate 0.20 - 0.25 btcs...    1EkJMigrxRKH1L9VdMwX1reCJ9LgCukTHH

interesting link is the site yours?

[dancupid]

One way to deal with the paypal problem would be to require the buyer to forward their 'confirmation of payment' email from paypal to the seller plus a note confirming they have now received 'the product' as requested (sent from their paypal email). This would occur before the bitcoins are sent. The email could then be used as evidence of receipt should a chargeback occur (assuming it's not a stolen paypal account - which is a different issue)

[ovidiusoft]

One way to deal with the paypal problem would be to require the buyer to forward their 'confirmation of payment' email from paypal to the seller plus a note confirming they have now received 'the product' as requested (sent from their paypal email). This would occur before the bitcoins are sent.

Why would a buyer agree to do that?

[dancupid]

One way to deal with the paypal problem would be to require the buyer to forward their 'confirmation of payment' email from paypal to the seller plus a note confirming they have now received 'the product' as requested (sent from their paypal email). This would occur before the bitcoins are sent.

Why would a buyer agree to do that?

Yeah, but why would the seller agree to a straight paypal transaction? - if the seller has some good reputation it may be ok. But any private transaction in bitcoin requires trust from both parties

Edit - bitcoin puts the emphasis on the buyer not the seller. If the buyer doesn't want to risk it they don;t need to do this, the seller loses nothing that way.

Edit 2 - I'm happy to sell people bitcoins on these conditions if anyone is interested - if not then feel free not to buy from me.

[ovidiusoft]

Yeah, but why would the seller? - if the seller has some good reputation it may be ok. But any private transaction in bitcoin requires trust from both parties
Edit - bitcoin puts the emphasis on the buyer not the seller. If the buyer doesn't want to risk it they don;t need to do this, the seller loses nothing that way.

Sure, some trust is needed, or the two parties should not be doing business. But, in the end, each of them need to protect their interest as best they can. A PayPal user has an important feature - the chargeback, and he has no reason to drop it. I wouldn't. I know that sellers hate it (and they are right, of course), but from the buyer's point of view, it's important.

A little offtopic, I think one of the big lies/misunderstandings regarding Bitcoin is that the payments are irreversible. They are not - the feature is just not built into the network.

Let me explain: if I buy something from a seller and I pay with bitcoins, but I am unhappy with what I get, I can't chargeback, but I can contact the local consumer protection authorities or directly sue the seller. One way or another, if I am right I will get my money back. Bingo, I just reversed the irreversible Bitcoin transactions! (If you just started laughing, this will be no laughing matter when large amounts will be paid with bitcoins. 5 USD transactions will not be the average forever).

This is why it's important (for both sellers and buyers) to properly identify the other party, to have contracts or agreements, and to document all steps of the transaction.

Getting back to selling bitcoins via easily reversible payment methods, the seller should save all conversation with the buyer, preferably GPG-signed emails. If the seller can prove that the destination address was provided by the buyer (from signed email) and the amount was sent to it (from blockexplorer), he should win any chargeback dispute (except, of course, if PayPal is not fair and intentionally tries to harm Bitcoin sellers, which is a real possibility).

[dancupid]

Yeah, but why would the seller? - if the seller has some good reputation it may be ok. But any private transaction in bitcoin requires trust from both parties
Edit - bitcoin puts the emphasis on the buyer not the seller. If the buyer doesn't want to risk it they don;t need to do this, the seller loses nothing that way.

Sure, some trust is needed, or the two parties should not be doing business. But, in the end, each of them need to protect their interest as best they can. A PayPal user has an important feature - the chargeback, and he has no reason to drop it. I wouldn't. I know that sellers hate it (and they are right, of course), but from the buyer's point of view, it's important.

A little offtopic, I think one of the big lies/misunderstandings regarding Bitcoin is that the payments are irreversible. They are not - the feature is just not built into the network.

Let me explain: if I buy something from a seller and I pay with bitcoins, but I am unhappy with what I get, I can't chargeback, but I can contact the local consumer protection authorities or directly sue the seller. One way or another, if I am right I will get my money back. Bingo, I just reversed the irreversible Bitcoin transactions! (If you just started laughing, this will be no laughing matter when large amounts will be paid with bitcoins. 5 USD transactions will not be the average forever).

This is why it's important (for both sellers and buyers) to properly identify the other party, to have contracts or agreements, and to document all steps of the transaction.

Getting back to selling bitcoins via easily reversible payment methods, the seller should save all conversation with the buyer, preferably GPG-signed emails. If the seller can prove that the destination address was provided by the buyer (from signed email) and the amount was sent to it (from blockexplorer), he should win any chargeback dispute (except, of course, if PayPal is not fair and intentionally tries to harm Bitcoin sellers, which is a real possibility).

I live in China - who are you going to contact if you are unhappy with the transaction?

[ovidiusoft]

I live in China - who are you going to contact if you are unhappy with the transaction?

I don't know, I wasn't talking specifics. I would probably not buy anything over 10 USD from a unknown guy in China . But if we scale that up a little, and I were to buy 100.000 USD worth of stuff from China, you can bet I would also afford good international commerce lawyers who will draft a contract and will know what means of getting my money back I have if the seller doesn't deliver.

Anyway, my point was that irreversibility or reversibility of transfer services is not absolute. If a buyers cares enough, a Bitcoin transfer can be reversed. If a seller documents his activity properly, he can fight chargebacks from PayPal and friends.

[dancupid]

I live in China - who are you going to contact if you are unhappy with the transaction?

I don't know, I wasn't talking specifics. I would probably not buy anything over 10 USD from a unknown guy in China . But if we scale that up a little, and I were to buy 100.000 USD worth of stuff from China, you can bet I would also afford good international commerce lawyers who will draft a contract and will know what means of getting my money back I have if the seller doesn't deliver.

Anyway, my point was that irreversibility or reversibility of transfer services is not absolute. If a buyers cares enough, a Bitcoin transfer can be reversed. If a seller documents his activity properly, he can fight chargebacks from PayPal and friends.

I'm a Sr.Member on the world renowned bitcointalk.org - I'm worth a $10 risk  - though if you have $100000 I can give you my bank account details.
The point of bitcoin is that it enables small transfers ($10 is enough for me) very cheaply to anywhere in the world.
I think most honest sellers would happily refund someone to maintain their reputation as a good seller (that's what I do when things go wrong in my business - I don't wait for the paypal charge-back)
But if I'd sell bitcoins I'd require the buyer to take the same risks I do.

[eviltt]

Part of me understands this reservation about paypal, but at the same time, its all i have easily setup to make financial transfers

just makes the effort for someone like my trying to get into this hobby/business/whatever you think of it as, substantially higher.

for example im still waiting for dwolla to transfer funds out of my account so i can transfer again to mtgox, then buy some bitcoins, this is very time consuming

either way i understand and appreciate it.. but it still sucks

[kais3r]

You could exchange in person...


http://btcnearme.com/



If you like my info, then please donate 0.20 - 0.25 btcs...    1EkJMigrxRKH1L9VdMwX1reCJ9LgCukTHH

hey great site man! thanks

[theymos]

Recently I've been reading many reports of problems with Paysafecards. Probably they are not much safer than PayPal.

[is4tomj]

Why would Western Union not safe?  Is it just sending cash?  Hard to see how someone could do a chargeback by sending cash.

[film2240]

I hear that using some payment systems to buy/sell bitcoins gets you in trouble.I know this is true for PayPal but what about MoneyBookers (as I use this system for trading sometimes but heard mixed things about it recently-so stopped using it) attitude towards BTC?

[gusti]

I hear that using some payment systems to buy/sell bitcoins gets you in trouble.I know this is true for PayPal but what about MoneyBookers (as I use this system for trading sometimes but heard mixed things about it recently-so stopped using it) attitude towards BTC?

See this : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63096.0

[Omni]

I have never heard of Wu being reversible haha.

[theymos]

Added gift cards to the list.

[PTseller]

I just posted in currency exchange will deal with old and reputed member thanks for tips !!

[Sant001]

- Western Union (they reportedly will sue the recipient to recover money in some cases)

That's my first time to hear of WU being reversible as well, in which country are they doing this?

What about LibertyReserve, is it safe from reversals and freezing?

[RandomQ]

same Bank to same Bank Transfers are they reversible?
Like Wells Fargo Account to Wells Fargo Account?

[antares]

One way to deal with the paypal problem would be to require the buyer to forward their 'confirmation of payment' email from paypal to the seller plus a note confirming they have now received 'the product' as requested (sent from their paypal email). This would occur before the bitcoins are sent. The email could then be used as evidence of receipt should a chargeback occur (assuming it's not a stolen paypal account - which is a different issue)

and whom would that help?
tbh, I have been scammed with paypal transfers, once the credit card transaction was charged back, the second time a stolen paypal had been used. When I investigated the first occurrance, it turned out to be regular identity fraud, i.e. someone stole the owners credit card data and signed up for paypal, then sent me some money. the second time the paypal really was stolen, along with the email address password, which explained why it took 2 weeks until the chargeback occurred. in both of those scenarios getting the email receipt doesnt help at all. The point is, I think most fraud using pp->btc is people with stolen accounts/cards, not people performing a chargeback with their own account. When I consider how easily you can get limited on paypal, I at least wouldnt try to fuck around using my own paypal account. Added to this comes the risk of getting sued for the money by the scammed party. I threatened to sue both account holders until they give me the police station they filed charges at and checked that. Seems like ID fraud is the more threatening part in paypal's business