Beware of PayPal and other reversible transfer services

[legendster]

Did my successful trade with a newbie through Paypal and NOT regretting it

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=176877.msg1841315#msg1841315

[1714201632]

1714201632

[1714201632]

1714201632

[Amph]

just transfer your money on another card after the paypal payment, and only then send the bitcoin
he can't transfer back in this way
solved?

[WilderedB]

Or just use a screencast video of you paying via 'friends and family', which doesn't allow chargebacks 

[bixel]

is skrill safe?
thanks.

[TheButterZone]

just transfer your money on another card after the paypal payment, and only then send the bitcoin
he can't transfer back in this way
solved?

It can easily be reversed all the way back to the criminal, electronically.

Or just use a screencast video of you paying via 'friends and family', which doesn't allow chargebacks  

Bullshit.

[sublime5447]

Still no charge backs butter zone sold thousands of coins at this point. Still no charge backs. I think the paypal myth has been busted. It can be done safe. You guy are a broken record about something that I have proven is untrue.

[TheButterZone]

Since he's ignored, let me guess, the scumbag PayPal scammer enabler http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=sublime5447 is continuing with his indefensible bullshit.

[sublime5447]

^^ that guy is a real retard.. I dont use otc one I have been banned (because I buy and sell for paypal) and second it is full of scammers. I really like bitcointalk much better. It is much easier to see if someone is a scammer or not here. This is my feedback thread. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=193151.new#new. You can see and image of thebutterzone if you look at is ebay store and you can see an image of me and my wife and son if you look at the tag below for our ebay store.... you tell me who looks like a scumbag scammer... he changed his name too. I can find the link for it but it used to be alvin or something he changed it to james or something like that... I dont trust people who change their name.

[BigBitz]

Just as an FYI to anyone interest in using PayPal.

This weekend I sent approx $600 to a user via bitcoin-otc IRC channel. I sent this as a gift. He received the money then dropped offline.

I thought this is not a big issue I will just file a chargeback with PayPal -- DENIED.

So if you send a GIFT the only way it is refundable is if the SELLER sends it back -- PayPal told me this when I called them up.

There are some stories/options about the ability to LIE to PayPal and tell them your account got hacked etc you might get the money back but you will have your account closed/flagged.

Anyway I got my money back, eventually, due to tracking the guy down - he claims his computer credits ran out [in the library] and had some other issues. He refunded me as I said. So if he is lying or not I don't care. I got my money back.

tl;dr --> PayPal Gift payments are not able to be chargedback unless you lie to PayPal and have the account potentially closed.

[TimJBenham]

just transfer your money on another card after the paypal payment, and only then send the bitcoin
he can't transfer back in this way
solved?

Needs more cowbell. Transfer the money from the Paypal account you have opened in an false name to the linked reloadable debit card you have opened in an false name, don your Guy Fawkes mask and withdraw as cash from an ATM. Destroy card and mask. Then push send button.

[Bogdan]

just transfer your money on another card after the paypal payment, and only then send the bitcoin
he can't transfer back in this way
solved?

This is the right way to go. Make new fake detail paypal account over VPN or new IP and accept the money. Then send that money to your main paypal and close the fake paypal's account. The money does not get charged back from your main paypal because as far as paypal can see you are a different person and you can't be put into debt because of someone else's doings, the debt is down to the fake paypal. Unless it is for thousands of dollars paypal aren't going to do anything about it.

This is a handy method for selling stuff for paypal without risk. If you were an official company then clearly there would be problems but as some guy who sells bitcoin nothing will come out of it.

[TheButterZone]

Nope. They do domino chargebacks from other accounts the money was sent to. http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=spawn-&sign=ANY&type=RECV

[Bogdan]

Nope. They do domino chargebacks from other accounts the money was sent to. http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=spawn-&sign=ANY&type=RECV

I've been using the mule account system for a long time and this has never happened. Maybe if it was with thousands of dollars and paypal staff could obviously see it was money laundering or something along those lines, but for small bitcoin deals it never happens. Imagine this in legitimate terms, you sell an expensive product on ebay to someone. Then a week later that person is charged back for whatever reason from someone who paid them. Paypal have no right to take money out of your account because the person who paid you now is in debt. If this was true imagine it on a larger scale, for example going back eight people. It would be complete chaos and nobody would use paypal if at any time their balance could be taken because some random person is in debt.

[TheButterZone]

Despite your singular claimed experience (as if because something has never happened to you, it will never happen to you or anyone else),

PayPal has the "right" to do whatever they goddamn please*. Especially to people who they determine are violating the fuck out of their terms of use and associating with a massive proportion of financial criminals compared to the rest of the PayPal customer base (which either uses PayPal as their "bank" account, or as the intermediary from a real bank account to other PayPal users' "bank" or bank accounts.)

*and does so, with effective impunity, proven beyond any reasonable doubt, EVEN for small bitcoin deals.

[Bogdan]

I'm not saying nothing will ever happen to anyone with this method, but you're only going to be a real target for them if you do it with thousands of dollars. A few tens or a bit above a hundred dollars and they have bigger fish to fry. It won't come up on their radar unless the person does it with huge amounts or is making it a daily activity.

[sublime5447]

The butterzone is a paypal hater... I dont know what they did to him? anal probe is my guess... This tactic seems like complete bullshit to me, just deal with people with a good reputation and you dont have to worry about it. I buy and sell coins everyday for paypal. I dont have fake accounts and mule accounts and all that crazy shit.  I just built trust slowly. When I sell for paypal it is to people who are new to the bitcoin community. I sell to people with no feedback history.... I have done hundreds of transactions over the last 7 months with no charge backs to speak of. If you would like to trade for paypal in a charge back free environment you are welcome to deal with us at bitcoin friends on facebook. We have started to introduce additional sellers to the page, right now there is only 3 but we hope to add other trusted sellers in the future. We have also started a seller insurance pool. We are contributing one percent of our sells and of the fees we receive to a public bitcoin address our trusted sellers are given the private key and in the event of proven fraud they will be permitted to drawl from the insurance pool.   

[Bogdan]

The butterzone is a paypal hater... I dont know what they did to him? anal probe is my guess... This tactic seems like complete bullshit to me, just deal with people with a good reputation and you dont have to worry about it. I buy and sell coins everyday for paypal. I dont have fake accounts and mule accounts and all that crazy shit.  I just built trust slowly. When I sell for paypal it is to people who are new to the bitcoin community. I sell to people with no feedback history.... I have done hundreds of transactions over the last 7 months with no charge backs to speak of. If you would like to trade for paypal in a charge back free environment you are welcome to deal with us at bitcoin friends on facebook. We have started to introduce additional sellers to the page, right now there is only 3 but we hope to add other trusted sellers in the future. We have also started a seller insurance pool. We are contributing one percent of our sells and of the fees we receive to a public bitcoin address our trusted sellers are given the private key and in the event of proven fraud they will be permitted to drawl from the insurance pool.   

That's interesting because I was not explaining the mule account system for my sake but for people I hope to buy bitcoins from. I am new here so I have no trust, but if you are selling bitcoins to newcomers I am interested in buying one.

[sublime5447]

If you use facebook you can see our buying procedure under notes. It is right next to our photos on the page if not you will have to upload a photo Id before you can trade with us. We have limits that are raised slowly. Here is a link to our selling guidelines. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=184924.0  I have to go do some work but will be back on this evening.
Thanks

[Ace5high]

As a "relative" newbie to the forum but as a business entrepreneur of 20 years.  I want to chime in here... Paypal or ANY other payment method is never perfectly safe or guaranteed. A legitimate buyer/seller is better known by their reputation, not on some board forum where they have 1000 posts. That's the LEAST safe people to be dealing with IMO, and for some reason people on these forums think your legit if your account is a year old and has a few posts... Any truly legit buyer/seller can easily prove their reputation or credentials any number of other ways. Ive bee using Paypal safe and sound for 10+ years and never had a bad transaction, because I don't deal with those who cant verify themselves in a professional business manor. period.  Be safe people.

[tarui]

How else can someone buy bitcoins then (intl buyers)?

Amazon gift cards?

CAn anyone recommend a escrow for pp and bitcoin? ?