A4 Dominator - Pre-Order Group Buy - 280mh, roughly 1000w, $1800 + shipping

[cloudnthings]

Hi, i have an 88mhs with one bad board and doing 77mhs right now ( http://rig.rent/rigs/26104 ). It is hosted at Cryptoboreas, Canada, if it could be of your interest... 

Thanks. I've pm'd you to avoid going off topic on this thread. Cheers.

[1714850181]

1714850181

[1714850181]

1714850181

[hdmediaservices]

No, I haven't posted them yet. I was going to wait a few weeks till we get delivery estimates from Innosilicon.
There are some on ebay, and I would search your local craigslist to avoid shipping charges as well.
I sold several gridseeds that way a few months ago. They are so cheap, the shipping on ebay is a significant percentage of the price. Makes sense to do those locally.
I really don't want to shpi the A2's due to the size/weight. I would also need to add insurance because of the size/weight increasing the likelyhood of shipping damage.

Yeah - I think if I sell mine -- people would have to pick them up.  The shipping costs could easily be $50 to $75.  And then there is the fraud issue with Ebay, etc. etc.

From what I have seen the 110Mh/s in the US are going for $600 to $700.

[dogjunior]

There is always risk, but I have done this before with Zeus and others.
Innosilicon is a well known entity and has earned some level of trust based on prior experience.
Would I send a wire transfer to a startup, no.

I seem to remember people saying that about KNC before things went south with them.  I know Innosilicon has built miners before. What bothers me is that they need to solicit funds before they can build. Did they run out of money designing the A4 and so need to front money to build? If they are so trusted and big, why aren't they well funded. They should be able to build like Bitmain and then offer units for sale.  Ship after confirmation of sent funds. Not wire me money and then next month or Sept probably send you some miners but no guarantee. This means you have to trust a bunch of people you have never meet before and hope they are honest business people.

[citronick]

Yes - I know about the company -- I've bought many 2nd hand A2 machines but not directly from them.

Past experience does not guarantee future experience especially in the world of Scrypt miners.

Every Scrypt miner that I have seen as a pre-order (past the A2's) has turned into Vaporware or some crazy fiasco.

In my opinion one would be a big gambler to pre-order such a machine that doesn't exist.

Sounds like a nice exit-strategy to me -- for a known company to advertise a great new Scrypt miner -- a good price -- and then lead people on for months, years, and zip -- they are gone!

Lets face it -- Scrypt mining is on the way out.  Slowly, but surely.

LTC was added recently at Antpool... seems that in China, LTC has still got a big following.

I suspect Innosilicon is addressing that market which is a big one esp in China.

[carlosmnk]

Yes - I know about the company -- I've bought many 2nd hand A2 machines but not directly from them.

Past experience does not guarantee future experience especially in the world of Scrypt miners.

Every Scrypt miner that I have seen as a pre-order (past the A2's) has turned into Vaporware or some crazy fiasco.

In my opinion one would be a big gambler to pre-order such a machine that doesn't exist.

Sounds like a nice exit-strategy to me -- for a known company to advertise a great new Scrypt miner -- a good price -- and then lead people on for months, years, and zip -- they are gone!

Lets face it -- Scrypt mining is on the way out.  Slowly, but surely.

LTC was added recently at Antpool... seems that in China, LTC has still got a big following.

I suspect Innosilicon is addressing that market which is a big one esp in China.

That is probably a bad new, because the diff can skyrocked if somewho as Bitmain enter to this market; BTW, could be Bitmain one of the Innosilicon's seek new partners?

[dogjunior]

Yes - I know about the company -- I've bought many 2nd hand A2 machines but not directly from them.

Past experience does not guarantee future experience especially in the world of Scrypt miners.

Every Scrypt miner that I have seen as a pre-order (past the A2's) has turned into Vaporware or some crazy fiasco.

In my opinion one would be a big gambler to pre-order such a machine that doesn't exist.

Sounds like a nice exit-strategy to me -- for a known company to advertise a great new Scrypt miner -- a good price -- and then lead people on for months, years, and zip -- they are gone!

Lets face it -- Scrypt mining is on the way out.  Slowly, but surely.

LTC was added recently at Antpool... seems that in China, LTC has still got a big following.

I suspect Innosilicon is addressing that market which is a big one esp in China.

That is probably a bad new, because the diff can skyrocked if somewho as Bitmain enter to this market; BTW, could be Bitmain one of the Innosilicon's seek new partners?

If the diff skyrockets and a 250 MB can only generate 1 LTC a week. At $4 a coin you are not going to have a lot of people wanting to invest millions of dollars into setting up a farm. Also if Bitmain was one of their partners, I don't think they would be out trying to get preorder money to build. Another point is that you would think an investment group willing to setup a huge farm in China, would put up the money to do a big first batch build by Innosilicon.   Then they can sell miners to individuals after they get the first thousand built.  Instead they are trying to get preorder money to start a build. Not a good omen.

[Searing]

Yes - I know about the company -- I've bought many 2nd hand A2 machines but not directly from them.

Past experience does not guarantee future experience especially in the world of Scrypt miners.

Every Scrypt miner that I have seen as a pre-order (past the A2's) has turned into Vaporware or some crazy fiasco.

In my opinion one would be a big gambler to pre-order such a machine that doesn't exist.

Sounds like a nice exit-strategy to me -- for a known company to advertise a great new Scrypt miner -- a good price -- and then lead people on for months, years, and zip -- they are gone!

Lets face it -- Scrypt mining is on the way out.  Slowly, but surely.

LTC was added recently at Antpool... seems that in China, LTC has still got a big following.

I suspect Innosilicon is addressing that market which is a big one esp in China.

That is probably a bad new, because the diff can skyrocked if somewho as Bitmain enter to this market; BTW, could be Bitmain one of the Innosilicon's seek new partners?

If the diff skyrockets and a 250 MB can only generate 1 LTC a week. At $4 a coin you are not going to have a lot of people wanting to invest millions of dollars into setting up a farm. Also if Bitmain was one of their partners, I don't think they would be out trying to get preorder money to build. Another point is that you would think an investment group willing to setup a huge farm in China, would put up the money to do a big first batch build by Innosilicon.   Then they can sell miners to individuals after they get the first thousand built.  Instead they are trying to get preorder money to start a build. Not a good omen.

Don't disagree with your premise...even with large difficulty jump....but China electric is what 1c 2c kwh or free (for a cut of btc made on the side)...

I now with 1000mh and 14c kwy at 4100 watts and 4.08c LTC am making below

24 hours   10.49414062 LTC   42.82 USD   13.78 USD   29.04 USD
7 days   73.45898438 LTC   299.71 USD   96.43 USD   203.28 USD
30 days   314.82421875 LTC   1284.48 USD   413.28 USD   871.20 USD

IF SAY THE DIFFICULTY FOR LITECOIN DOUBLES well then I would get this

Profitability Analysis
   Expected Rewards   Costs   Net Profit
24 hours   5.24707031 LTC   21.41 USD   13.78 USD   7.63 USD
7 days   36.72949219 LTC   149.86 USD   96.43 USD   53.42 USD
30 days   157.41210938 LTC   642.24 USD   413.28 USD   228.96 USD

big diff 642.24 usd or down 73.7%....but as you can see the above is still profit after electric and I may be screwed at 14c kwh

BUT folk in china with equiv equipment are still killing it ...even if difficulty for LTC doubles

Just saying...how they look at this with their electric costs vs my electric costs is a universe apart don't ya know

anyway my take on it

[usao]

Anyone know when the "video" they have been talking about is suppose to be posted?

[dogjunior]

Yes - I know about the company -- I've bought many 2nd hand A2 machines but not directly from them.

Past experience does not guarantee future experience especially in the world of Scrypt miners.

Every Scrypt miner that I have seen as a pre-order (past the A2's) has turned into Vaporware or some crazy fiasco.

In my opinion one would be a big gambler to pre-order such a machine that doesn't exist.

Sounds like a nice exit-strategy to me -- for a known company to advertise a great new Scrypt miner -- a good price -- and then lead people on for months, years, and zip -- they are gone!

Lets face it -- Scrypt mining is on the way out.  Slowly, but surely.

LTC was added recently at Antpool... seems that in China, LTC has still got a big following.

I suspect Innosilicon is addressing that market which is a big one esp in China.

That is probably a bad new, because the diff can skyrocked if somewho as Bitmain enter to this market; BTW, could be Bitmain one of the Innosilicon's seek new partners?

If the diff skyrockets and a 250 MB can only generate 1 LTC a week. At $4 a coin you are not going to have a lot of people wanting to invest millions of dollars into setting up a farm. Also if Bitmain was one of their partners, I don't think they would be out trying to get preorder money to build. Another point is that you would think an investment group willing to setup a huge farm in China, would put up the money to do a big first batch build by Innosilicon.   Then they can sell miners to individuals after they get the first thousand built.  Instead they are trying to get preorder money to start a build. Not a good omen.

Don't disagree with your premise...even with large difficulty jump....but China electric is what 1c 2c kwh or free (for a cut of btc made on the side)...

I now with 1000mh and 14c kwy at 4100 watts and 4.08c LTC am making below

24 hours   10.49414062 LTC   42.82 USD   13.78 USD   29.04 USD
7 days   73.45898438 LTC   299.71 USD   96.43 USD   203.28 USD
30 days   314.82421875 LTC   1284.48 USD   413.28 USD   871.20 USD

IF SAY THE DIFFICULTY FOR LITECOIN DOUBLES well then I would get this

Profitability Analysis
   Expected Rewards   Costs   Net Profit
24 hours   5.24707031 LTC   21.41 USD   13.78 USD   7.63 USD
7 days   36.72949219 LTC   149.86 USD   96.43 USD   53.42 USD
30 days   157.41210938 LTC   642.24 USD   413.28 USD   228.96 USD

big diff 642.24 usd or down 73.7%....but as you can see the above is still profit after electric and I may be screwed at 14c kwh

BUT folk in china with equiv equipment are still killing it ...even if difficulty for LTC doubles

Just saying...how they look at this with their electric costs vs my electric costs is a universe apart don't ya know

anyway my take on it

A lot of unknowns are happening. I think that if there was a chance for a huge profit on LTC machines, someone else in China would have made a machine.  Just saying that a company such as Innosilicon has to preorder this sucker. Why? If it is such a great LTC miner with huge potential and the Chinese have zero electric cost, then it should be a no brainer. Yet again this preorder BS has me thinking. I am probably wrong but something doesn't seem right.

[Searing]

Yes - I know about the company -- I've bought many 2nd hand A2 machines but not directly from them.

Past experience does not guarantee future experience especially in the world of Scrypt miners.

Every Scrypt miner that I have seen as a pre-order (past the A2's) has turned into Vaporware or some crazy fiasco.

In my opinion one would be a big gambler to pre-order such a machine that doesn't exist.

Sounds like a nice exit-strategy to me -- for a known company to advertise a great new Scrypt miner -- a good price -- and then lead people on for months, years, and zip -- they are gone!

Lets face it -- Scrypt mining is on the way out.  Slowly, but surely.

LTC was added recently at Antpool... seems that in China, LTC has still got a big following.

I suspect Innosilicon is addressing that market which is a big one esp in China.

That is probably a bad new, because the diff can skyrocked if somewho as Bitmain enter to this market; BTW, could be Bitmain one of the Innosilicon's seek new partners?

If the diff skyrockets and a 250 MB can only generate 1 LTC a week. At $4 a coin you are not going to have a lot of people wanting to invest millions of dollars into setting up a farm. Also if Bitmain was one of their partners, I don't think they would be out trying to get preorder money to build. Another point is that you would think an investment group willing to setup a huge farm in China, would put up the money to do a big first batch build by Innosilicon.   Then they can sell miners to individuals after they get the first thousand built.  Instead they are trying to get preorder money to start a build. Not a good omen.

Don't disagree with your premise...even with large difficulty jump....but China electric is what 1c 2c kwh or free (for a cut of btc made on the side)...

I now with 1000mh and 14c kwy at 4100 watts and 4.08c LTC am making below

24 hours   10.49414062 LTC   42.82 USD   13.78 USD   29.04 USD
7 days   73.45898438 LTC   299.71 USD   96.43 USD   203.28 USD
30 days   314.82421875 LTC   1284.48 USD   413.28 USD   871.20 USD

IF SAY THE DIFFICULTY FOR LITECOIN DOUBLES well then I would get this

Profitability Analysis
   Expected Rewards   Costs   Net Profit
24 hours   5.24707031 LTC   21.41 USD   13.78 USD   7.63 USD
7 days   36.72949219 LTC   149.86 USD   96.43 USD   53.42 USD
30 days   157.41210938 LTC   642.24 USD   413.28 USD   228.96 USD

big diff 642.24 usd or down 73.7%....but as you can see the above is still profit after electric and I may be screwed at 14c kwh

BUT folk in china with equiv equipment are still killing it ...even if difficulty for LTC doubles

Just saying...how they look at this with their electric costs vs my electric costs is a universe apart don't ya know

anyway my take on it

A lot of unknowns are happening. I think that if there was a chance for a huge profit on LTC machines, someone else in China would have made a machine.  Just saying that a company such as Innosilicon has to preorder this sucker. Why? If it is such a great LTC miner with huge potential and the Chinese have zero electric cost, then it should be a no brainer. Yet again this preorder BS has me thinking. I am probably wrong but something doesn't seem right.

You very well could be right and we could see the equiv of the 2013 to 2014 massive difficulty rise like BTC saw those years. My view is that the A4 is NOT any better then a
325mh 1250watt Titan...or damn close. The odds of finding a 'used' Titan that does the whole 350mh at this point in time almost 2 years later is small..maybe 1 out of 20.
So with innsilicon saying they 'beat' the Titan...well it ain't by much and in 'reality' with only used Titans out there..probably not even that (assuming 325mh at 1250 watts)

BUT......something has or will likely replace the A2's and that likely will be A4's at this point in time. GPU's etc or less then say the A2's 110mh have already gone to doorstop
status me thinks.

So with the Titans getting older (some likely fading) ...the A2's slowly losing ground and being shut off...and the A4's being the only game in town ..new anyway.....it could
just be a 'wash' ..ie back to difficulty of say end of 2015 when A2's were strong and some GPU's were still mining LTC. Thus me thinks is the 'bet' of folk getting A4's. Not
enough incentive for new scrypt miners by others due to price etc..and the fact the A4 is already out there...thus another 2 years of same old same old (i wish)

But really at $4 buck prices I'm not sure we will see any others. If the price were to go say to $5 and above for LTC imho you'd see such an announcement of new equip
that likely would materialize 5 or 6 months from now...from others on top of an A4 ramp up too boot ...thus we could see just 'more of the same' the next 2years because the A4 is only one who has jumped in and there main claim to fame in that time period may just be to replace as I said above 2015 gpus/and A2's etc. The Titans can run with the A4's fine efficiency and miner wise but they are getting older and could start to fade...anyway my view on why folk are getting A4's ..but lots of moving parts in all this

Then again innsilicon is a 'chip maker' they supposedly "don't mine' I suppose they could just flood the whole scrypt miner universe as a result and A4's could be more common
then toasters.....as they swamp the scrypt landscape

but from my view....kinda ...looks with how close this all is to a Titan ...just more of the same....but again innsilicon could flood the market with scrypt miners I suppose

but yeah lots of moving parts.the key in all this is WHAT price point on LTC would it take say for others to jump in with their version of a scrypt miner? 5/7/10 bucks?

anyway all very daunting to keep track of all the balls in the air on this kinda stuff

[CjMapope]

Yes - I know about the company -- I've bought many 2nd hand A2 machines but not directly from them.

Past experience does not guarantee future experience especially in the world of Scrypt miners.

Every Scrypt miner that I have seen as a pre-order (past the A2's) has turned into Vaporware or some crazy fiasco.

In my opinion one would be a big gambler to pre-order such a machine that doesn't exist.

Sounds like a nice exit-strategy to me -- for a known company to advertise a great new Scrypt miner -- a good price -- and then lead people on for months, years, and zip -- they are gone!

Lets face it -- Scrypt mining is on the way out.  Slowly, but surely.

LTC was added recently at Antpool... seems that in China, LTC has still got a big following.

I suspect Innosilicon is addressing that market which is a big one esp in China.

That is probably a bad new, because the diff can skyrocked if somewho as Bitmain enter to this market; BTW, could be Bitmain one of the Innosilicon's seek new partners?

If the diff skyrockets and a 250 MB can only generate 1 LTC a week. At $4 a coin you are not going to have a lot of people wanting to invest millions of dollars into setting up a farm. Also if Bitmain was one of their partners, I don't think they would be out trying to get preorder money to build. Another point is that you would think an investment group willing to setup a huge farm in China, would put up the money to do a big first batch build by Innosilicon.   Then they can sell miners to individuals after they get the first thousand built.  Instead they are trying to get preorder money to start a build. Not a good omen.

Don't disagree with your premise...even with large difficulty jump....but China electric is what 1c 2c kwh or free (for a cut of btc made on the side)...

I now with 1000mh and 14c kwy at 4100 watts and 4.08c LTC am making below

24 hours   10.49414062 LTC   42.82 USD   13.78 USD   29.04 USD
7 days   73.45898438 LTC   299.71 USD   96.43 USD   203.28 USD
30 days   314.82421875 LTC   1284.48 USD   413.28 USD   871.20 USD

IF SAY THE DIFFICULTY FOR LITECOIN DOUBLES well then I would get this

Profitability Analysis
   Expected Rewards   Costs   Net Profit
24 hours   5.24707031 LTC   21.41 USD   13.78 USD   7.63 USD
7 days   36.72949219 LTC   149.86 USD   96.43 USD   53.42 USD
30 days   157.41210938 LTC   642.24 USD   413.28 USD   228.96 USD

big diff 642.24 usd or down 73.7%....but as you can see the above is still profit after electric and I may be screwed at 14c kwh

BUT folk in china with equiv equipment are still killing it ...even if difficulty for LTC doubles

Just saying...how they look at this with their electric costs vs my electric costs is a universe apart don't ya know

anyway my take on it

A lot of unknowns are happening. I think that if there was a chance for a huge profit on LTC machines, someone else in China would have made a machine.  Just saying that a company such as Innosilicon has to preorder this sucker. Why? If it is such a great LTC miner with huge potential and the Chinese have zero electric cost, then it should be a no brainer. Yet again this preorder BS has me thinking. I am probably wrong but something doesn't seem right.

You very well could be right and we could see the equiv of the 2013 to 2014 massive difficulty rise like BTC saw those years. My view is that the A4 is NOT any better then a
325mh 1250watt Titan...or damn close. The odds of finding a 'used' Titan that does the whole 350mh at this point in time almost 2 years later is small..maybe 1 out of 20.
So with innsilicon saying they 'beat' the Titan...well it ain't by much and in 'reality' with only used Titans out there..probably not even that (assuming 325mh at 1250 watts)

BUT......something has or will likely replace the A2's and that likely will be A4's at this point in time. GPU's etc or less then say the A2's 110mh have already gone to doorstop
status me thinks.

So with the Titans getting older (some likely fading) ...the A2's slowly losing ground and being shut off...and the A4's being the only game in town ..new anyway.....it could
just be a 'wash' ..ie back to difficulty of say end of 2015 when A2's were strong and some GPU's were still mining LTC. Thus me thinks is the 'bet' of folk getting A4's. Not
enough incentive for new scrypt miners by others due to price etc..and the fact the A4 is already out there...thus another 2 years of same old same old (i wish)

But really at $4 buck prices I'm not sure we will see any others. If the price were to go say to $5 and above for LTC imho you'd see such an announcement of new equip
that likely would materialize 5 or 6 months from now...from others on top of an A4 ramp up too boot ...thus we could see just 'more of the same' the next 2years because the A4 is only one who has jumped in and there main claim to fame in that time period may just be to replace as I said above 2015 gpus/and A2's etc. The Titans can run with the A4's fine efficiency and miner wise but they are getting older and could start to fade...anyway my view on why folk are getting A4's ..but lots of moving parts in all this

Then again innsilicon is a 'chip maker' they supposedly "don't mine' I suppose they could just flood the whole scrypt miner universe as a result and A4's could be more common
then toasters.....as they swamp the scrypt landscape

but from my view....kinda ...looks with how close this all is to a Titan ...just more of the same....but again innsilicon could flood the market with scrypt miners I suppose

but yeah lots of moving parts.the key in all this is WHAT price point on LTC would it take say for others to jump in with their version of a scrypt miner? 5/7/10 bucks?

anyway all very daunting to keep track of all the balls in the air on this kinda stuff

ooo i would have to agree, But i mean you know your scrypt mining.
the only thing i could counter with is one of your own points ;  most KNC scrypt gear is 2+ years old and 1/20 run full dies
will in the next 6 months we see a drop in dif as KNC gear dies? (Gen and lightfoot can only do so much for so long), and if so
will that Be the space A4's fill? who else MAKES viable scrypt gear? not knc anymore...

gridseed?   has anyone heard about them lately?

on another note, remember innosciolin has Been "taking investors" on this chip since '15, why offer public now? is it Batch 1? or 3? or.....?

[hdmediaservices]

It is so refreshing to see people actually look at the numbers and current situation -- instead of just going crazy with BUY BUY BUY!

I see these units great if you pay very little for electricity -- but then the A2s are still great if you pay little for electricity.

On a side note -- having a lot of hash power at your immediate disposal (like 2GH) can really create some "interesting" opportunities with different coins -- but that is a whole other subject.

I'm thinking of putting my 30+ A2s back online -- but only to use them strategically with certain coins.  Not to run them 24/7.

I'd gladly buy a proven A4 unit for twice the price right now if I was guaranteed to receive it within a week and there was no risk (by using a credit card or escrow company).

[cloudnthings]

I would imagine the pre-order to mean that they just ramp up the production quantity and would be able to do a known quantity run. This would mean that they have already produced the A4's in a prior run to iron out all the issues (there always are). This would then mean that the A4's are already out there....

But then again, I don't think I've seen the difficulty spike. So maybe my assumptions are wrong....

[usao]

I recall from other HW discussions elsewhere that even if they have a design for the A4, they have to commit to a level of production with an established chip-maker and get on their schedule.
These things take time and need to be worked out in advance. They just can't show up at a FAB and request 1000 chips. The run has to be substantial enough to make it cost effective for both the designer and the FAB.
I think the pre-orders are a way to help ensure the cost structure is in place to cover the run or future runs if they had a small initial run to validate the design.

[excelerator]

I recall from other HW discussions elsewhere that even if they have a design for the A4, they have to commit to a level of production with an established chip-maker and get on their schedule.
These things take time and need to be worked out in advance. They just can't show up at a FAB and request 1000 chips. The run has to be substantial enough to make it cost effective for both the designer and the FAB.
I think the pre-orders are a way to help ensure the cost structure is in place to cover the run or future runs if they had a small initial run to validate the design.

I really hope for those people who pre-ordered 76 units they aren't being used to "validate the design".   Innosilicon has been soliciting investors publicly since last November precisely for that reason.  If they are taking pre-orders to "validate the design", then that's a huge red flag that they are undercapitalized.  If the design isn't successfully validated, then I guess there will be another crop of people happy to spend their money on Batch 2 without recourse and no guarantees. 

Is the hashrate guaranteed (+/- 10%) from Innosilicon?  Are there any policies to return the equipment for failure to perform other than the 45 day warranty (which doesn't include returns from what I've followed in the thread).

[usao]

Anyone get an invoice for their pre order yet?

[usao]

I recall from other HW discussions elsewhere that even if they have a design for the A4, they have to commit to a level of production with an established chip-maker and get on their schedule.
These things take time and need to be worked out in advance. They just can't show up at a FAB and request 1000 chips. The run has to be substantial enough to make it cost effective for both the designer and the FAB.
I think the pre-orders are a way to help ensure the cost structure is in place to cover the run or future runs if they had a small initial run to validate the design.

I really hope for those people who pre-ordered 76 units they aren't being used to "validate the design".   Innosilicon has been soliciting investors publicly since last November precisely for that reason.  If they are taking pre-orders to "validate the design", then that's a huge red flag that they are undercapitalized.  If the design isn't successfully validated, then I guess there will be another crop of people happy to spend their money on Batch 2 without recourse and no guarantees. 

Is the hashrate guaranteed (+/- 10%) from Innosilicon?  Are there any policies to return the equipment for failure to perform other than the 45 day warranty (which doesn't include returns from what I've followed in the thread).

I believe that a small run (to validate the design) has already happened to produce engineering test samples, that's most likely where the evolving hashrate numbers came from.
The initial engineering samples are made from a small lab the FAB operates for just such purposes.
However, when they go for a production run, it may have some tweaks from the initial run. I would think they probably get 100K chips or some such number from a production run in order to get the economy of scale needed to reduce the per-chip price from the FAB. That's just my guess anyhow, not trying to say its fact.

[Searing]

Yes - I know about the company -- I've bought many 2nd hand A2 machines but not directly from them.

Past experience does not guarantee future experience especially in the world of Scrypt miners.

Every Scrypt miner that I have seen as a pre-order (past the A2's) has turned into Vaporware or some crazy fiasco.

In my opinion one would be a big gambler to pre-order such a machine that doesn't exist.

Sounds like a nice exit-strategy to me -- for a known company to advertise a great new Scrypt miner -- a good price -- and then lead people on for months, years, and zip -- they are gone!

Lets face it -- Scrypt mining is on the way out.  Slowly, but surely.

LTC was added recently at Antpool... seems that in China, LTC has still got a big following.

I suspect Innosilicon is addressing that market which is a big one esp in China.

That is probably a bad new, because the diff can skyrocked if somewho as Bitmain enter to this market; BTW, could be Bitmain one of the Innosilicon's seek new partners?

If the diff skyrockets and a 250 MB can only generate 1 LTC a week. At $4 a coin you are not going to have a lot of people wanting to invest millions of dollars into setting up a farm. Also if Bitmain was one of their partners, I don't think they would be out trying to get preorder money to build. Another point is that you would think an investment group willing to setup a huge farm in China, would put up the money to do a big first batch build by Innosilicon.   Then they can sell miners to individuals after they get the first thousand built.  Instead they are trying to get preorder money to start a build. Not a good omen.

Don't disagree with your premise...even with large difficulty jump....but China electric is what 1c 2c kwh or free (for a cut of btc made on the side)...

I now with 1000mh and 14c kwy at 4100 watts and 4.08c LTC am making below

24 hours   10.49414062 LTC   42.82 USD   13.78 USD   29.04 USD
7 days   73.45898438 LTC   299.71 USD   96.43 USD   203.28 USD
30 days   314.82421875 LTC   1284.48 USD   413.28 USD   871.20 USD

IF SAY THE DIFFICULTY FOR LITECOIN DOUBLES well then I would get this

Profitability Analysis
   Expected Rewards   Costs   Net Profit
24 hours   5.24707031 LTC   21.41 USD   13.78 USD   7.63 USD
7 days   36.72949219 LTC   149.86 USD   96.43 USD   53.42 USD
30 days   157.41210938 LTC   642.24 USD   413.28 USD   228.96 USD

big diff 642.24 usd or down 73.7%....but as you can see the above is still profit after electric and I may be screwed at 14c kwh

BUT folk in china with equiv equipment are still killing it ...even if difficulty for LTC doubles

Just saying...how they look at this with their electric costs vs my electric costs is a universe apart don't ya know

anyway my take on it

A lot of unknowns are happening. I think that if there was a chance for a huge profit on LTC machines, someone else in China would have made a machine.  Just saying that a company such as Innosilicon has to preorder this sucker. Why? If it is such a great LTC miner with huge potential and the Chinese have zero electric cost, then it should be a no brainer. Yet again this preorder BS has me thinking. I am probably wrong but something doesn't seem right.

You very well could be right and we could see the equiv of the 2013 to 2014 massive difficulty rise like BTC saw those years. My view is that the A4 is NOT any better then a
325mh 1250watt Titan...or damn close. The odds of finding a 'used' Titan that does the whole 350mh at this point in time almost 2 years later is small..maybe 1 out of 20.
So with innsilicon saying they 'beat' the Titan...well it ain't by much and in 'reality' with only used Titans out there..probably not even that (assuming 325mh at 1250 watts)

BUT......something has or will likely replace the A2's and that likely will be A4's at this point in time. GPU's etc or less then say the A2's 110mh have already gone to doorstop
status me thinks.

So with the Titans getting older (some likely fading) ...the A2's slowly losing ground and being shut off...and the A4's being the only game in town ..new anyway.....it could
just be a 'wash' ..ie back to difficulty of say end of 2015 when A2's were strong and some GPU's were still mining LTC. Thus me thinks is the 'bet' of folk getting A4's. Not
enough incentive for new scrypt miners by others due to price etc..and the fact the A4 is already out there...thus another 2 years of same old same old (i wish)

But really at $4 buck prices I'm not sure we will see any others. If the price were to go say to $5 and above for LTC imho you'd see such an announcement of new equip
that likely would materialize 5 or 6 months from now...from others on top of an A4 ramp up too boot ...thus we could see just 'more of the same' the next 2years because the A4 is only one who has jumped in and there main claim to fame in that time period may just be to replace as I said above 2015 gpus/and A2's etc. The Titans can run with the A4's fine efficiency and miner wise but they are getting older and could start to fade...anyway my view on why folk are getting A4's ..but lots of moving parts in all this

Then again innsilicon is a 'chip maker' they supposedly "don't mine' I suppose they could just flood the whole scrypt miner universe as a result and A4's could be more common
then toasters.....as they swamp the scrypt landscape

but from my view....kinda ...looks with how close this all is to a Titan ...just more of the same....but again innsilicon could flood the market with scrypt miners I suppose

but yeah lots of moving parts.the key in all this is WHAT price point on LTC would it take say for others to jump in with their version of a scrypt miner? 5/7/10 bucks?

anyway all very daunting to keep track of all the balls in the air on this kinda stuff

ooo i would have to agree, But i mean you know your scrypt mining.
the only thing i could counter with is one of your own points ;  most KNC scrypt gear is 2+ years old and 1/20 run full dies
will in the next 6 months we see a drop in dif as KNC gear dies? (Gen and lightfoot can only do so much for so long), and if so
will that Be the space A4's fill? who else MAKES viable scrypt gear? not knc anymore...

gridseed?   has anyone heard about them lately?

on another note, remember innosciolin has Been "taking investors" on this chip since '15, why offer public now? is it Batch 1? or 3? or.....?

This is probably a bit off topic so I will preface it with the tagline WHAT A4 PURCHASER'S SHOULD KNOW ABOUT KNC POSSIBLE END OF LIFE (ie Doorstop status)

While all the above you state is true ..it does not take into account the various fixes/mods that have taken place on the Titan since KNC abandoned firmware
updates in Feb 2015....in other words with the 3rd party stuff mods out there now you LIKELY will be able to run you KNC stuff for another 2 years....assuming
it has lasted this long.....thus keep this in mind if you expect knc stuff to suddenly start to fade in a big way (some fade yes...big fade unlikely in how close
they are in eff with the A4 units)

Indeed a point could be made it is SAFER to buy a knc cube or miner NOW then an A4 with its 45 day warranty. In that the firmware is likely not up to snuff
yet and a 45 day warranty.

points to back up the above

Gen Tarkin has mod'ed the firmware of the KNC Titan to such an extent ..that KNC proper said was IMPOSSIBLE to do back in 2014-15. He has an energy
eff mode that can find the sweet spot on hash vs energy...a knc die gets in trouble it will auto fix and/or toggle back the speed to get it backup ...it
also can bypass dies causing issues for manual reset for you later. It has a FAN failed option and a temp option that if the dc/dc's go beyond that point
they are throttled back and off....the list goes on

his link....you A4 folk should be pestering him or BUYING him with a group buy an A4 so he does the same mods for you....it is that important imho
it is WELL WORTH 2-3X THE MONEY HE ASKS ..the frigging firmware is MAGIC

http://gentarkincustomtitan.pcriot.com/

As you can see from the below Swedish guy videos (the Swedish one shows more detail ...the English one is easier to follow but less detail) The order imho
to watch this is the Swedish Video first for picture detail and the English version 2nd)

Again ...stuff like this MAY be of note on A4 units on modifications and/or such hacks in the future hardware/firmware for A4 units due to limited warranty of 45 days imho)

Swedish Lang version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-RBI4am-wY

English Lang version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G_zcJ0vbOw

again this is on this thread to show how far the mods are...since the above video MAXUMARK on here has made a slim X bracket to replace this large foam/metal kludge
knc heatsink...depending on the design of the A4 such 3rd party mods and heatsinks could be added to the above. Also note in the Titan's case 3000 rpm fan vs 1500 rpm
or so cheap knc fan is huge

Maxumark's X bracket thread as you can see it opens up the whole Titan cube to allow for (with heatsinks on dc/dc's) 10-15c decrease in temp..this is huge for extending
the life on the Titans.

Again just saying such modifications and or folk to help fix/repair your A4's as a community will be needed imho asap with their 45 day warranty. HOPEFULLY the A4 has
open source modded software that can be tweaked after they walk away from the units in 45 days..closed source would be bad imho....you'd be stuck at whatever version
you had when the last of the 45 day warranties were toast...ie they got your money...go away ..warranty period  over no more firmeware updates like knc did early.

maxumark X bracket thread (pics there will show how the complete opening of cube extends life)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1423042.msg15545005#msg15545005

Lastly another person besides the above that A4 folk should consider cultivating is Lightfoot on bitcointalk..he can repair Titan cubes and controllers ..thus for a fee he
likely could repair A4 stuff after warranty. His thread below.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1283859.0

You will need such folk in the future for the A4 stuff or folk like them imho..when the 45 day warranty goes poof....There is also a guy I forget the name that did extensive
mods to the Alcheminer 256 miner firmware and electronics. He was on litecointalk....folk probably know who I mean or can post his handle here....he also would be good
for A4 folk to contact in that the innsilicon A2 chip was what he tweaked and or improved the firmware on the Alcheminer ...in that the firmware was 'supposed' to do
256 and only did 190 mh before he did his tweaks ( I think he got it up to 300mh on some) he also would be someone to dig up for future modifications and or fixes
of the A4.

Anyway hope the above was informative..but indeed since doing the mods here (listed on my thread) my Titan stuff increased in speed from 700mh to 735 mh complete and
at 84F in basement my dc/dc's went from 80/70c to 60/50c ....so they are cooler NOW then they were when I ran them last Winter! So the demise of the Titan due to
the above huge 3rd party tweaks...may be exaggerated...(indeed I got 1 lame cube with throttled down dies ...cube was 1/4 down to full out with the mods on my thread!)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1283859.msg15544737#msg15544737

So you may see a lot of 'soup'ed up Titans still going strong....should this determine your bid on an A4 and or used Titans for the purposes of this thread A4 topic.

Anyway how I spend my time now...searching for half assed unmodified with old knc 2.00 firmware barely working Titan parts/etc and bringing them back to life
with the above..again A4 community will have to do the same and likely much quicker due to the 45 day warranty only on these A4's imho..hopefully above
gives you some ideas and leads on HOW this kinda CAN work ..when the asic scrypt maker walks away from support

hope it helps

[Longsnowsm]

Hi Everyone,

I am back.  Looks like a good discussion here!  I love it!  I agree with Searing on many of his points here.  The Titan's useful life certainly has not only been extended by the community, but improved.  I can only hope the A4 can get that kind of support.

The fact that there isn't a huge difference between the A4 and the Titan should mean the Titan's will get an extension lease on life for some time unless Inno or someone else comes out with a screaming fast miner relatively soon.

But like others here have already mentioned the question about interest in LTC is good.  Clearly as Searing has pointed out LTC can be profitable with an efficient miner.  How long it will remain so is anyones guess.  And there aren't that many Titan's out there so the A4 could change the landscape a little, but it will depend on how many people run out and buy them.  It is a numbers game. 

Others have mentioned there isn't any interest in scrypt or LTC.  Then maybe the A4 does not sell that well.  I guess we will find out soon enough regular availability of the A4 should happen not long after the Batch 1 units ship would be my guess. 

[Longsnowsm]

On the topic of picking up the miner while visiting China, the answer is yes you can pickup the A4 once they are available at the Inno warehouse in Shenzhen.

For those who have gotten invoices for your orders there was a typo on the invoice that stated the A4 is 260mh.  That is incorrect, it should state 280mh.  Please reach out to Chloe and ask for an updated invoice with the corrected info.