[ANN] Firo (FIRO) - Implementing ZKP privacy without trusted setup

[jwinterm]

Thanks. Can you answer my earlier question as well:

I've heard that multisig transactions are impossible using the zero knowledge proofs of either zcash or zcoin, and this will significantly affect the privacy of both (if everyone uses the "clearnet" token, then who cares if there is an anonymous sub-token), since, monero for instance will soon allow ringsig multisig after ringct is implemented. Is this true? Multisig impossible with zcash or zcoin anon tokens?

This seems quite important, since at the moment private currency seems to equate with DNMs, and while I think most still use escrow, the ideal is that people would use multisig. If private multisig txs are impossible with zerocoin or zerocash, doesn't this hamper their utility quite a bit?

Multisig transactions actually are possible with Zerocoin.

Do you have a source or link about this?

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[drays]

I'm wondering if there are GPU miners already available...

I guess only the Suprnova owner can tell for sure..  

OC, if that is not a secret, could you please tell if you see any workers with big hashrate coming from a single IP?

Suprnova GUI is extremely slow btw. Servers seem to be overloaded... Pool.mn is ok though.

[scaryvirus]

Zerocoin protocol is a holy grail of anon... Both zcoin and zcash are better than XMR.  

We are doing well guys!  Butthurt monero trolls showing up Enjoying the aftermath of the exit pump much?

Better how? Pretty much everyone agrees xmr is a better choice for many reasons. Please specify some reasons rather than just using "holy grail" expression as your evidence. Please specify how I am a troll rather than someone who simply knows both technologies and xmr is clearly superior. This is old subject why zcash and zcoin can't possibly succeed or be trusted.

http://weuse.cash/2016/06/09/btc-xmr-zcash/

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/09/how-to-compromise-zcash-and-take-over-the-world/

http://www.bitcoinplus.org/content/monero-v-zcash

There are tons of sources for zcash/zcoin issues. No one in the right mind would use a trusted set-up AND anonymity - it's a perfect set up for a scam that all z crypto could be, no one can know if they are - that's the problem. xmr has min of 3 mixins now, ringct, i2p, there is not a single not anonymous thing about it and yet does not require trusted set up and open for examination that no exploits have been found at same time. Since zerocoin shows amount sent, it's effectively about as anonymous as dash. It's a joke.

Your turn.

[ocminer]

I'm wondering if there are GPU miners already available...

I guess only the Suprnova owner can tell for sure..  

OC, if that is not a secret, could you please tell if you see any workers with big hashrate coming from a single IP?

Suprnova GUI is extremely slow btw. Servers seem to be overloaded... Pool.mn is ok though.

I don't see anything suspicious to a gpu miner yet.

I'm working on some load balancing but the server is indeed a bit crowded at the moment, should be better soon

Load is fixed - server is fine

[solid12345]

There are tons of sources for zcash/zcoin issues. No one in the right mind would use a trusted set-up AND anonymity - it's a perfect set up for a scam that all z crypto could be, no one can know if they are - that's the problem. xmr has min of 3 mixins now, ringct, i2p, there is not a single not anonymous thing about it and yet does not require trusted set up and open for examination that no exploits have been found at same time. Since zerocoin shows amount sent, it's effectively about as anonymous as dash. It's a joke.

Your turn.

I don't trust XMR because I don't trust fluffypony, smooth, generalizethis and the rest of their trolls who won the anon battle in the short term by basically belittling all kinds of people in this forum and invading/hijacking every thread even ones that are vaguely related to the anon debate to spread their gospel on why their coin is best and everything else is trash. I also don't trust in their programming ability because in 2 years they can't launch a simple GUI miner. I'm not a coder but I wasn't born yesterday either, if this is basic part of any crypto project is giving them a tough time then do you trust your life or security with them?

I kind of like how the devs of this coin spent the last year quietly working in the background rather than spreading propaganda.

[YIz]

If I choose to mint the coins in the Zerocoin tab it means I will receive more coins by participating in PoS?

[dbt1033]

Zerocoin protocol is a holy grail of anon... Both zcoin and zcash are better than XMR.  

We are doing well guys!  Butthurt monero trolls showing up Enjoying the aftermath of the exit pump much?

Better how? Pretty much everyone agrees xmr is a better choice for many reasons. Please specify some reasons rather than just using "holy grail" expression as your evidence. Please specify how I am a troll rather than someone who simply knows both technologies and xmr is clearly superior. This is old subject why zcash and zcoin can't possibly succeed or be trusted.

http://weuse.cash/2016/06/09/btc-xmr-zcash/

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/09/how-to-compromise-zcash-and-take-over-the-world/

http://www.bitcoinplus.org/content/monero-v-zcash

There are tons of sources for zcash/zcoin issues. No one in the right mind would use a trusted set-up AND anonymity - it's a perfect set up for a scam that all z crypto could be, no one can know if they are - that's the problem. xmr has min of 3 mixins now, ringct, i2p, there is not a single not anonymous thing about it and yet does not require trusted set up and open for examination that no exploits have been found at same time. Since zerocoin shows amount sent, it's effectively about as anonymous as dash. It's a joke.

Your turn.

Typical Monero troll.  Sockpuppet account and hijacking threads.  Your articles are about zerocash protocol, not zerocoin protocol.  Step your game up.

[DaniellPlasmmer]

Zcoin ( https://zcoin.tech )

In Bitcoin, all transactions are broadcasted on a public ledger. Research has shown that external information, such as publicly announced addresses, can be used to link individual identities and organizations to transactions. Furthermore, the same type of mechanism used to break privacy in social networks, such as the analysis of social network topology, can be used to break privacy in the Bitcoin network.

Zcoin ( https://zcoin.tech ) guarantees complete financial privacy through the Zerocoin Protocol. The Zerocoin Protocol ( http://spar.isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf ) uses Zero-Knowledge proofs to ensure zero leakage of information about senders and recipients of financial transactions.

A zero-knowledge proof is a method in which one person can prove to another person that a given statement is true, without conveying any information apart from the fact that the statement is indeed true.

Zcoin uses zero-knowledge proofs by making a zero-knowledge cryptographic statement. When someone is sent Zerocoin, the person only knows that X amount of money was sent to their wallet. Unlike Bitcoin and all previous cryptocurrencies, there is no other unintended identifying information about the sender and receiver, or any attached transaction history. With Zerocoin, transactional history is completely removed.

Zcoin is different from Zcash. Zcoin uses the much more secure cryptographic schemes of the Zerocoin Protocol, which was one of the most cited cryptography papers in the past 3 years. Zcoin also has magnitudes faster sending times for private transactions. For a more detailed description of differences, please see here: http://blog.zcoin.tech/zcoin-and-zcash/

Hi, do you need portuguese translation?

[dbt1033]

Where my sellers at? 

[scaryvirus]

Typical Monero troll.  Sockpuppet account and hijacking threads.  Your articles are about zerocash protocol, not zerocoin protocol.  Step your game up.

I'm asking you how technology is better than a much more established technology. You're saying subjective stuff like fud and troll. This is my only account. I want to know if I should be interested in zcash and so far I haven't seen a single article that's accurate about competition that shows how it's better. How is it hijacking thread if I'm literally asking you about zcoin. Only reason I brought up zcash is it has some similarities in the trusted set-up which I still don't understand the necessity for. I don't care about xmr being overpumped too fast and falling in value, explain to me why I should buy zerocoin and how it's not just another coin, there are so many people asking these questions and no one seems to be able to answer them. If this was a bitcoin fork, I'd ask why is this better than bitcoin - it's a valid question and your short response lacks any details. I worry you're just an early buyer just trying to promote a coin for trading and not interested in privacy and security in general, so you don't matter, people who want to actually use and hold this tech matter.

I don't trust XMR because I don't trust fluffypony, smooth, generalizethis and the rest of their trolls who won the anon battle in the short term by basically belittling all kinds of people in this forum and invading/hijacking every thread even ones that are vaguely related to the anon debate to spread their gospel on why their coin is best and everything else is trash. I also don't trust in their programming ability because in 2 years they can't launch a simple GUI miner. I'm not a coder but I wasn't born yesterday either, if this is basic part of any crypto project is giving them a tough time then do you trust your life or security with them?

I kind of like how the devs of this coin spent the last year quietly working in the background rather than spreading propaganda.

If that's true, yeah, that's kind of mean spirited of them. However, every post I've seen was them criticizing security and privacy flaws, not people in general. And as the foremost experts in the field on privacy tech they are often very right, as demonstrated when they deanonimized shadowcash in a day after similarly people were calling their facts fud or trolling or whatever else people say to dismiss critique.

Critique is healthy and necessary if crypto revolving around privacy, security, and safety can succeed. Also p.s. they have never worked on a gui miner or gui wallet so that's why it's not done.

I'm interested in the best privacy coins, my questions are often asked so this would be place to answer them and help me see how I'm wrong.

[dbt1033]

Typical Monero troll.  Sockpuppet account and hijacking threads.  Your articles are about zerocash protocol, not zerocoin protocol.  Step your game up.

I'm asking you how technology is better than a much more established technology. You're saying subjective stuff like fud and troll. This is my only account. I want to know if I should be interested in zcash and so far I haven't seen a single article that's accurate about competition that shows how it's better. How is it hijacking thread if I'm literally asking you about zcoin. Only reason I brought up zcash is it has some similarities in the trusted set-up which I still don't understand the necessity for. I don't care about xmr being overpumped too fast and falling in value, explain to me why I should buy zerocoin and how it's not just another coin, there are so many people asking these questions and no one seems to be able to answer them. If this was a bitcoin fork, I'd ask why is this better than bitcoin - it's a valid question and your short response lacks any details. I worry you're just an early buyer just trying to promote a coin for trading and not interested in privacy and security in general, so you don't matter, people who want to actually use and hold this tech matter.

I don't trust XMR because I don't trust fluffypony, smooth, generalizethis and the rest of their trolls who won the anon battle in the short term by basically belittling all kinds of people in this forum and invading/hijacking every thread even ones that are vaguely related to the anon debate to spread their gospel on why their coin is best and everything else is trash. I also don't trust in their programming ability because in 2 years they can't launch a simple GUI miner. I'm not a coder but I wasn't born yesterday either, if this is basic part of any crypto project is giving them a tough time then do you trust your life or security with them?

I kind of like how the devs of this coin spent the last year quietly working in the background rather than spreading propaganda.

If that's true, yeah, that's kind of mean spirited of them. However, every post I've seen was them criticizing security and privacy flaws, not people in general. And as the foremost experts in the field on privacy tech they are often very right, as demonstrated when they deanonimized shadowcash in a day after similarly people were calling their facts fud or trolling or whatever else people say to dismiss critique.

Critique is healthy and necessary if crypto revolving around privacy, security, and safety can succeed. Also p.s. they have never worked on a gui miner or gui wallet so that's why it's not done.

I'm interested in the best privacy coins, my questions are often asked so this would be place to answer them and help me see how I'm wrong.

http://spar.isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/ZerocoinOakland.pdf Whitepaper

http://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/1495/what-privacy-issues-did-monero-have-and-still-has Issues with Monero.

[scaryvirus]

Thank you, it's good to have a link here. but I read the entire website before I posted here. Lets just wait until someone else answers.

[dbt1033]

Thank you, it's good to have a link here. but I read the entire website before I posted here. Lets just wait until someone else answers.

Everything you desire is in the whitepaper.  Stop being lazy.  

From the website (that you supposedly already read):

"Bitcoin and preceding alternative cryptocurrencies have attempted to solve this problem through the use of transaction mixers or ring signatures. However, there are a number of drawbacks to these proposed solutions. For one, a malicious or compromised member of a mixer or ring signature can break privacy. Furthermore, the anonymity set is a key metric to understanding how private a cryptocurrency is. The anonymity set in formerly proposed solutions is limited by the size of the mixing cycle or ring signature. Each mixing cycle or ring signature is limited by the number of transactions per cycle, which is transitively limited by the the block size of the cryptocurrency. Thus, the anonymity set in previous attempts at privacy tends to only be a few hundred transactions.

With Zcoin, the anonymity set is on a dramatically higher magnitude. Instead of having an anonymity set limited to the few hundreds, Zcoin has an anonymity set that encompasses all "minted coins" in the Zcoin system. The magnitude of the anonymity set is on the order of millions, rather than hundreds - it makes all previous alternative cryptocurrencies aimed at privacy obsolete."

[poptartcat]

Nice comparison from a Monero cryptographer here https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/41vg68/monero_vs_zcash_eli5_fundamental_differences/cz63pqw that touches on the issue of anonymity set (and which may also be why I was under the impression that multisig using anon token in zcash or zcoin was not possible):

I've done a little bit of comparison in the Ring CT paper / you can also look here for some facts on zcash- there are a few I've seen so far
1 - Setup: Monero (Trustless) vs Zerocash (Must Trust zcash company)
2 - Proof Generation: Monero (100's /second ) vs Zcash (1/minute)
3 - Algorithm auditability: Monero (a decent number of people seem to understand ring signatures and confidential transactions) vs Zerocash (I'm not sure how many people actually understand the proofs besides the small group of authors) - although this point is certainly subjective.
4 - Poison-pill attack vulnerability: Monero (attacker would need 51%) vs Zerocash Vulnerable, (see zerocash extended paper section 6.4)
5 - Anonymity set: Monero (although the zcash proponents note that a ring signature is a "smaller" anonymity set, they usually don't mention that the stealth address factor actually means that each transaction is masked, whereas the ring signatures provide additional plausible deniability, furthermore, since keys appear in different ring signatures in different blocks in time, the anonymity set for when a given key is spent grows infinitely, and could eventually grow larger than the zcash anonymity set at any fixed instant in time) vs Zcash (anonymity set is the entire blockchain )
6 - Anonymous Multisig: Monero (yes! see "written up" link on ring ct sticky, this could make things like lightning potentially possible ) vs Zerocash (?)
7 - Mining: Monero (has it's own strongly decentralized mining process) vs Zerocash protocol from the paper lacks it's own mining (it's essentially just a distributed anonymous database), so there must be another coin which is mined to convert to zerocash tokens
--note that point 4. is an actual potential compromise of anonymity, which contradicts some of the statements the zerocash team has made.

One interesting point made in the same thread by a zcash engineer is that zcash and presumably zcoin are much more amenable to pruning than monero, so the storage requirement may be lower long term (but I don't think this would affect verification time).

[Nik4691]

Thank you, it's good to have a link here. but I read the entire website before I posted here. Lets just wait until someone else answers.

Everything you desire is in the whitepaper.  Stop being lazy.  

From the website (that you supposedly already read):

"Bitcoin and preceding alternative cryptocurrencies have attempted to solve this problem through the use of transaction mixers or ring signatures. However, there are a number of drawbacks to these proposed solutions. For one, a malicious or compromised member of a mixer or ring signature can break privacy. Furthermore, the anonymity set is a key metric to understanding how private a cryptocurrency is. The anonymity set in formerly proposed solutions is limited by the size of the mixing cycle or ring signature. Each mixing cycle or ring signature is limited by the number of transactions per cycle, which is transitively limited by the the block size of the cryptocurrency. Thus, the anonymity set in previous attempts at privacy tends to only be a few hundred transactions.

You seem that you don't understand that there are not such problems in monero.
These problems arise, when we try to use the solutions inherent in monero to other (non cryptonote) coins, like bitcoin.

[malmoghetto]

WOW so expensive now, it is good time to sell.   

[Amph]

the bot net is taking on this it seems, that's why cpu coin are bad, i'm waiting for the release of the gpu miner

zcoin was already forked from scrypt-n cause gpu asic farm were mining and community ask only cpu.
Now you ask go back to gpu to allow nicehash to point thousand MH on zcoin and let us small miner with only 10-15 gpu get peanuts?
No thanks.

sure better if a single guy with 1000 cpu take on this coin alone, with gpu even with a rig you will be able to make profit, this is already reachign unprofitable level with cpu

[cpu-pool.com]

Here is a new pool on a very powerful server:

http://www.cpu-pool.com/xzc

Currently only 1% fee, please share some hash over.

[akatsuki]

WOW so expensive now, it is good time to sell.  

XMR: 0.0117
XZC: 0.0035

Zcoin price will go higher than monero since it's better tech.

[adaseb]

Been like this all day today