Is taxation theft?

[Drowzy]

Taxation is not theft or an act of thieving. Taxation is our share that we must give back to society that transforms into  government welfare services and others.

Your statement might have been true a few decades back. But now, most of the tax revenue is being spent on the defense budget, and for giving salaries to the governmental staff.

Well we need the defense budget because other countries are also spending on defense. As for salaries I don't think so. The rest of the money goes into social programs and infrastructure. Salary is probably a small part of it.

[coolcoinz]

How brainwashed some of you are... You think there would be chaos without taxes. No there wouldn't be. Did Native Americans have taxes? No. Was there chaos? No.
But the roads... What people need, people make. People needed cars, they invested their money and made more cars to satisfy their needs. Same thing would happen with roads police and other services.
What governments can't accept is that people are different, some are more productive and intelligent than others. Governments want to impose fake equality, to make all people contribute, even if they are dumb, uneducated or lazy. This only brings those people deeper into poverty and sometimes makes them break the law or start living in the street.

There is a way to make taxes just. For instance property tax is just IMO. You choose a country you want to live in and you can check how much you will have to pay each year for living there. This amount should be constant, no matter if you have a business or just prefer to drink vodka and watch the clouds go by. This would be your contribution to the services provided by State.
Income tax is unjust, because it punishes the innovative, people who are working their asses off every day. The more they work, the more the government takes.

[miki77miki]

Personally, I do feel it is theft, I never consented to any taxation. I feel that this video helps explain the video quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs

Did you go to school?

Do you use the roads?

Did you ever visit the hospital? (unless you're from USA)

Then don't act like you haven't consented to taxation, you're using the benefits built and made from taxes
You must pay your taxes if you're going to use these services
It would be selfish to avoid it, and it could also get you to jail  

Never did I claim any of these things, nor did I claim that taxation doesn't provide these things. However, these things were all provided by stealing from other people (taxation). The question was is taxation theft, not does taxation provide any services.

Regardless of me using any of these services, I never consetned to paying for them. If I stuck a chocolate bar into your hand and put a gun to your head and said "Give me $100, since you are buying this chocolate bar, if you refuse, i'll throw you into a cage, if you resist i'll kill you." is that justifiable for me to do it? If not then how is it justifiable for the government to do it?

[Daniel91]

First, you have to ask yourself, why we need country?
What is the purpose of country, government, schools, public services?
If you agree that we need all this public services than you have to accept simple fact that someone have to pay for it.
What about health insurance?
Military?
Are you really so naive to think that we, in today's world, don't need military or that anyone can afford doctor?
What about unemployed or homeless people?
Simple truth is that we need government and we need taxes.
How to organize public services and taxes, it's another question and there is no perfect answer.

[miki77miki]

First, you have to ask yourself, why we need country?
What is the purpose of country, government, schools, public services?
If you agree that we need all this public services than you have to accept simple fact that someone have to pay for it.
What about health insurance?
Military?
Are you really so naive to think that we, in today's world, don't need military or that anyone can afford doctor?
What about unemployed or homeless people?
Simple truth is that we need government and we need taxes.
How to organize public services and taxes, it's another question and there is no perfect answer.

Sure man, let's say we do need the government to do all of these things, but this isn't the question.  The question is "Is taxation theft?", personally I feel government should have some responsibilities such as maintaining a courts system, police, fire, national defense and I believe these should be achieved by some type of taxation. However, I still think taxation is theft, regardless how noble the cause, taking money from non-consenting people is theft, correct?

[BADecker]

First, you have to ask yourself, why we need country?
What is the purpose of country, government, schools, public services?
If you agree that we need all this public services than you have to accept simple fact that someone have to pay for it.
What about health insurance?
Military?
Are you really so naive to think that we, in today's world, don't need military or that anyone can afford doctor?
What about unemployed or homeless people?
Simple truth is that we need government and we need taxes.
How to organize public services and taxes, it's another question and there is no perfect answer.

Sure man, let's say we do need the government to do all of these things, but this isn't the question.  The question is "Is taxation theft?", personally I feel government should have some responsibilities such as maintaining a courts system, police, fire, national defense and I believe these should be achieved by some type of taxation. However, I still think taxation is theft, regardless how noble the cause, taking money from non-consenting people is theft, correct?

Right. When we get government to do all the good things that they do for us, it's because they steal a big chunk of our property while they do the little good they do.

This is good:
1. Roads and other benefits;
2. Government directing the making of roads and other benefits.
3. People paying government to do the directing.

What we get is:
1. Roads and other benefits;
2. Government directing the making of roads and other benefits.
3. People paying government to do the directing.
4. Government people covertly siphoning off a whole lot of the pay inappropriately.

Let's cut out the middleman and do the work ourselves, and save a whole bunch of our property from the middleman.

[Sithara007]

Taxation is not theft or an act of thieving. Taxation is our share that we must give back to society that transforms into  government welfare services and others.

Your statement might have been true a few decades back. But now, most of the tax revenue is being spent on the defense budget, and for giving salaries to the governmental staff.

Well we need the defense budget because other countries are also spending on defense. As for salaries I don't think so. The rest of the money goes into social programs and infrastructure. Salary is probably a small part of it.

OK.. let's take the American budget as an example. Here:



As you can see, defense and veterans affairs make up 20% of the total spending. Treasury amounts for another 14%.

[criptix]

Taxation is not theft or an act of thieving. Taxation is our share that we must give back to society that transforms into  government welfare services and others.

Your statement might have been true a few decades back. But now, most of the tax revenue is being spent on the defense budget, and for giving salaries to the governmental staff.

Well we need the defense budget because other countries are also spending on defense. As for salaries I don't think so. The rest of the money goes into social programs and infrastructure. Salary is probably a small part of it.

OK.. let's take the American budget as an example. Here:



As you can see, defense and veterans affairs make up 20% of the total spending. Treasury amounts for another 14%.

But the truth is that the military budget is atleast 30% bigger then the base budget you are showing.

Here is something detailed:

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-military-budget-components-challenges-growth-3306320

[inlovewith]

No.

And if you use common sense if we didn't get taxed then it doesn't mean we will have any extra money to buy stuff. The worth of things balances out. And now you won't even have roads and infrastructure.

[RealityTruth]

I think minimal taxes equals a night-watchman state with high social tensions and in the end, wealth being accumulated by the few lucky individuals. Higher taxes can be used to distribute some of the wealth for the poor. I'm not talking about full-scale socialism. But I understand this kind of idea is probably not very popular in the US where there's still a culture of a mythical self-made success even though it's being made almost impossible for the poor people of the society. Money is being printed out as much as it's being needed so it's not really about lack of funds to have a few social programs for the poor. But the current situation, "the central banking socialism", where the printed money is being given straight to the top 1% and then others have to get by on what's left is totally unsustainable. But it's done on purpose, to destroy the system completely from inside to take control of everything.

[popcorn1]

Take control of everything you end up with control of nothing..^

[coolcoinz]

I think minimal taxes equals a night-watchman state with high social tensions and in the end, wealth being accumulated by the few lucky individuals. Higher taxes can be used to distribute some of the wealth for the poor. I'm not talking about full-scale socialism. But I understand this kind of idea is probably not very popular in the US where there's still a culture of a mythical self-made success even though it's being made almost impossible for the poor people of the society. Money is being printed out as much as it's being needed so it's not really about lack of funds to have a few social programs for the poor. But the current situation, "the central banking socialism", where the printed money is being given straight to the top 1% and then others have to get by on what's left is totally unsustainable. But it's done on purpose, to destroy the system completely from inside to take control of everything.

This idea is unpopular everywhere, not only in the US. Don't mix in helping the poor (charity) with a socialist redistribution of wealth. Taking money from the rich to give to the poor is theft. I'm not a rich person myself, but I'm against it. Give people free money because they are poor and they will stay poor. Do you really think that giving a poor family benefits of $200 a month is going to change something? Make them start their own business for instance or start looking for a job? You have to give them means to support themselves, the rod not the fish.

[Sithara007]

I think minimal taxes equals a night-watchman state with high social tensions and in the end, wealth being accumulated by the few lucky individuals. Higher taxes can be used to distribute some of the wealth for the poor.

This is ridiculous. How the poor are going to benefit, when a large part of the tax revenue is being spent on big corporations? The rich will get richer, as they have multiple avenues for tax evasion. The poor will remain poor, and the middle class will suffer from decreased purchasing power.

[ridery99]

I think minimal taxes equals a night-watchman state with high social tensions and in the end, wealth being accumulated by the few lucky individuals. Higher taxes can be used to distribute some of the wealth for the poor. I'm not talking about full-scale socialism. But I understand this kind of idea is probably not very popular in the US where there's still a culture of a mythical self-made success even though it's being made almost impossible for the poor people of the society. Money is being printed out as much as it's being needed so it's not really about lack of funds to have a few social programs for the poor. But the current situation, "the central banking socialism", where the printed money is being given straight to the top 1% and then others have to get by on what's left is totally unsustainable. But it's done on purpose, to destroy the system completely from inside to take control of everything.

Make them start their own business for instance or start looking for a job? You have to give them means to support themselves, the rod not the fish.

Well I agree with this for now but how about when robots and automation owned by few companies and individuals make most of the jobs obsolete?

For example:
Self-driving trucks: what's the future for America's 3.5 million truckers?
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/17/self-driving-trucks-impact-on-drivers-jobs-us

[BADecker]

I think minimal taxes equals a night-watchman state with high social tensions and in the end, wealth being accumulated by the few lucky individuals. Higher taxes can be used to distribute some of the wealth for the poor. I'm not talking about full-scale socialism. But I understand this kind of idea is probably not very popular in the US where there's still a culture of a mythical self-made success even though it's being made almost impossible for the poor people of the society. Money is being printed out as much as it's being needed so it's not really about lack of funds to have a few social programs for the poor. But the current situation, "the central banking socialism", where the printed money is being given straight to the top 1% and then others have to get by on what's left is totally unsustainable. But it's done on purpose, to destroy the system completely from inside to take control of everything.

Make them start their own business for instance or start looking for a job? You have to give them means to support themselves, the rod not the fish.

Well I agree with this for now but how about when robots and automation owned by few companies and individuals make most of the jobs obsolete?

For example:
Self-driving trucks: what's the future for America's 3.5 million truckers?
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/17/self-driving-trucks-impact-on-drivers-jobs-us

If people can't afford the things that robots make and do, then companies will fail because nobody buys their products. The robots will go down with the companies.

Before the companies go down, people will get on welfare because they are not earning the money because robots all have the jobs. Prices on everything will come down, because robots, once set up, can manufacture and do everything free, including making and repairing themselves.

After this there will be no incentive for anyone to be wealthy, because money won't be needed any longer. People will get everything free, from the robots. The robots do everything for free because (if they are not AI) they will have no incentive to ask for pay.

[coolcoinz]

OK.. let's take the American budget as an example. Here:



As you can see, defense and veterans affairs make up 20% of the total spending. Treasury amounts for another 14%.

They are spending whole 20% on social security and only 3% on education. Isn't this a great way to have a society full of dumb and lazy people?
Benefits were always the easiest way to bribe voters.

[Sithara007]

They are spending whole 20% on social security and only 3% on education. Isn't this a great way to have a society full of dumb and lazy people?
Benefits were always the easiest way to bribe voters.

You are absolutely right. These sort of retarded logic results in the creation of an entire generation of welfare rats, who are not capable of any productive activity. BTW, in my opinion education must be free.

[freeyourmind]

You have used services that cost money without paying for them (taxes), you have stolen money from every citizen you ever met in your country, you're a thief and force must be used against you in order for you pay if you won't do it willingly.

Ahh... yes. The famous, "what about the roads" argument. How tedious.

If you honestly believe that things such as roads wouldn't be built without taxes, then you have no imagination and are truly stuck with a slave mentality.

Have you ever heard of a toll road? They exist today, and they are paid for by the people who drive on them... I know, it may be hard for you to grasp the concept of people who actually use the product as being the ones who pay for it, as opposed to everyone.

I'd be more than happy to pay voluntary taxes when I have complete say over how my money is spent. Where I live, the government is almost 20 trillion dollars in debt, the infrastructure (including roads) is falling apart, and a huge amount of taxpayer money is used to wage war on people on the other side of the planet. So yes, fuck taxes. I am going to do everything in my power to legally avoid paying as many taxes as possible.

Without taxes (including the hidden tax known as inflation), governments would not be able to pool enough resources to wage large scale war. So yes, fuck taxes.

Excellent point of view.  Or maybe just because I agree with it.

I am not necessarily against taxing, but I am usually for minimal government because it is a very poorly executed business from my experience.  It has the potential to be beneficial, but it seems to very easily grow into a self serving institution when people value their government job more than the service they provide to the public.  I think government should play a role in setting regulations and slowing the destruction caused to the environment in hopes of profit.  The private sector can take care of the rest.

[ridery99]

I think minimal taxes equals a night-watchman state with high social tensions and in the end, wealth being accumulated by the few lucky individuals. Higher taxes can be used to distribute some of the wealth for the poor. I'm not talking about full-scale socialism. But I understand this kind of idea is probably not very popular in the US where there's still a culture of a mythical self-made success even though it's being made almost impossible for the poor people of the society. Money is being printed out as much as it's being needed so it's not really about lack of funds to have a few social programs for the poor. But the current situation, "the central banking socialism", where the printed money is being given straight to the top 1% and then others have to get by on what's left is totally unsustainable. But it's done on purpose, to destroy the system completely from inside to take control of everything.

Make them start their own business for instance or start looking for a job? You have to give them means to support themselves, the rod not the fish.

Well I agree with this for now but how about when robots and automation owned by few companies and individuals make most of the jobs obsolete?

For example:
Self-driving trucks: what's the future for America's 3.5 million truckers?
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/17/self-driving-trucks-impact-on-drivers-jobs-us

If people can't afford the things that robots make and do, then companies will fail because nobody buys their products. The robots will go down with the companies.

Before the companies go down, people will get on welfare because they are not earning the money because robots all have the jobs. Prices on everything will come down, because robots, once set up, can manufacture and do everything free, including making and repairing themselves.

After this there will be no incentive for anyone to be wealthy, because money won't be needed any longer. People will get everything free, from the robots. The robots do everything for free because (if they are not AI) they will have no incentive to ask for pay.

So you believe it's going to be a full-scale socialism?  

[Tyrantt]

They are spending whole 20% on social security and only 3% on education. Isn't this a great way to have a society full of dumb and lazy people?
Benefits were always the easiest way to bribe voters.

You are absolutely right. These sort of retarded logic results in the creation of an entire generation of welfare rats, who are not capable of any productive activity. BTW, in my opinion education must be free.

Well that's what happens when a country gives out welfare to lazy people, to everyone like its candy. In my country elementary and high school are free, tho college costs a little more money but if you have good scores you can enroll on a state budget and study for free, I mean there are still some fees for books and means if you want to but studying college that year is free, no need to pay yearly money for college that way and also if you want to stay on the state budget you need to keep up the good work of studying hard.