Is taxation theft?

[Sithara007]

Taxation where collected revenues are spent effectively to produce tangible benefits equal to the taxes collected are not theft.

Wasteful, destructive, spending on the part of a state which destroys wealth, productivity and innovation (currency might be said to represent these things) however could be considered worse than theft.

Agreed. For example, the United States spent more than $2 trillion to invade Iraq. And they still have not achieved their objectives. That money should have been better spent on education and healthcare.

[1715145082]

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[1715145082]

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[1715145082]

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[RealBitcoin]

Well, we are almost to the point of everyone working for Government right now... except if they are on welfare.

Not everyone, otherwise  the local currencies would be worthless, and everyone have to be imported.

There are many people in manufacturing, but they are paid so little, because they need to sustain this system.

The people should really participate and do their job as well. Everyone should speak up and share their thoughts and opinion on things. This is one way to regulate those government acts that are obviously deemed useless and abusive.

people dont bite the hand that feeds them

[RealBitcoin]

Right. Start by filing a W-4 with your employer that has "n-a" on all the lines, but "EXEMPT" on line 7. Then sign it "non-assumpsit, your signature." And sue your employer if he doesn't stop withholding.

Since the W-2 is hearsay, and nobody will step up and swear in court that the amount on your W-2 is your gross income (unless you have signed some document saying that it is), nobody can prove what your gross income is.

Stand as a man/woman, without representation. Attorneys argue what the law is all the time. How does anyone think that you will ever understand it. You have an out there.

In court, if a person stands unrepresented, but rather, present, and requires an injured man or woman come forth to accuse him of the injury, there is no case without real injury. Standard law. But you have to stand not represented to use it.

Standard law is the way out regarding the IRS. Start by studying Karl Lentz, and then putting it all into action.

http://www.myprivateaudio.com/Karl-Lentz.html = Angela Stark's Talkshoe.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5duR4OvEHHxOSdEZhANETw = TrustInAllLaw snippets of Karl's audios.

http://www.broadmind.org/ = Karl's main page.

http://www.unkommonlaw.co.uk/ = Karl's United Kingdom page.

http://www.youtube.com/user/765736/videos?view=0&live_view=500&flow=grid&sort=da = Craig Lynch's snippets page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOkAHRzuiOA&list=PLHrkQxgz0mg6kUBciD-HIvTXByqjcIZ-D = Ten great Youtube videos, might be the best introduction to Karl.

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=127469&cmd=tc = Karl's Talkshoe site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iua56K4Mysk = Karl Lentz - The Brian Bonar Incident - YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdHLHWS4gPE = Lentz-Sense - don't be a More~On - YouTube.


Other Info

http://voidjudgments.com/ = The Secret is most judgments are Void on their face and not merely voidable.

http://educationcenter2000.com/Trinsey-v-Paglario.htm = Trinsey v. Pagliaro - Attorneys cannot "speak" in common law trials if the one who is bringing the suit orders it. Holding from Trinsey v. Pagliaro: "An attorney for the plaintiff cannot admit evidence into the court. He is either an attorney or a witness."

I dont think you should be putting out legal advice here, unless you know the law 1000%. There is a lot of pseudo-law in the internet, that could hurt people in real court cases.


Besides even if what you say is true, it doesnt matter. The courts and prosecutors will always find a tiny hole that they can exploit, and fuck the defendant.

You cant fight the system, it's their will eventually . You and I are just slaves.

[BADecker]

Right. Start by filing a W-4 with your employer that has "n-a" on all the lines, but "EXEMPT" on line 7. Then sign it "non-assumpsit, your signature." And sue your employer if he doesn't stop withholding.

Since the W-2 is hearsay, and nobody will step up and swear in court that the amount on your W-2 is your gross income (unless you have signed some document saying that it is), nobody can prove what your gross income is.

Stand as a man/woman, without representation. Attorneys argue what the law is all the time. How does anyone think that you will ever understand it. You have an out there.

In court, if a person stands unrepresented, but rather, present, and requires an injured man or woman come forth to accuse him of the injury, there is no case without real injury. Standard law. But you have to stand not represented to use it.

Standard law is the way out regarding the IRS. Start by studying Karl Lentz, and then putting it all into action.

http://www.myprivateaudio.com/Karl-Lentz.html = Angela Stark's Talkshoe.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5duR4OvEHHxOSdEZhANETw = TrustInAllLaw snippets of Karl's audios.

http://www.broadmind.org/ = Karl's main page.

http://www.unkommonlaw.co.uk/ = Karl's United Kingdom page.

http://www.youtube.com/user/765736/videos?view=0&live_view=500&flow=grid&sort=da = Craig Lynch's snippets page.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOkAHRzuiOA&list=PLHrkQxgz0mg6kUBciD-HIvTXByqjcIZ-D = Ten great Youtube videos, might be the best introduction to Karl.

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=127469&cmd=tc = Karl's Talkshoe site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iua56K4Mysk = Karl Lentz - The Brian Bonar Incident - YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdHLHWS4gPE = Lentz-Sense - don't be a More~On - YouTube.


Other Info

http://voidjudgments.com/ = The Secret is most judgments are Void on their face and not merely voidable.

http://educationcenter2000.com/Trinsey-v-Paglario.htm = Trinsey v. Pagliaro - Attorneys cannot "speak" in common law trials if the one who is bringing the suit orders it. Holding from Trinsey v. Pagliaro: "An attorney for the plaintiff cannot admit evidence into the court. He is either an attorney or a witness."

I dont think you should be putting out legal advice here, unless you know the law 1000%. There is a lot of pseudo-law in the internet, that could hurt people in real court cases.

Sounds reasonable. So, what makes you so special that you can do it? Are you an attorney?

Besides even if what you say is true, it doesnt matter. The courts and prosecutors will always find a tiny hole that they can exploit, and fuck the defendant.

Courts and attorneys are people. They aren't necessarily the smartest people. It's just their focus. Besides, if what you say is true, they would have become kings over us long ago.

You cant fight the system, it's their will eventually . You and I are just slaves.

The stuff I listed, above, doesn't have anything to do with fighting the system. It has to do with using the rest of the system, the part that few people know about anymore, but everyone knew at the beginning of the country in the 1700s.

[RealBitcoin]

Sounds reasonable. So, what makes you so special that you can do it? Are you an attorney?

No, i'm not a lawyer and i havent put out any legal advice here. What makes you think I did?

Courts and attorneys are people. They aren't necessarily the smartest people. It's just their focus. Besides, if what you say is true, they would have become kings over us long ago.

Yes they are people with the power of an army behind them, so it doesnt matter if they are wrong, you can appeal I think 3 times and then you are toast.

So if you find 3 bad judges, you are toast. That is the system for you.

So if 50% of the justice system is corrupt, then you have a 12.5% chance of losing a court case, no matter how right you are.

[andrei56]

Taxation where collected revenues are spent effectively to produce tangible benefits equal to the taxes collected are not theft.

Wasteful, destructive, spending on the part of a state which destroys wealth, productivity and innovation (currency might be said to represent these things) however could be considered worse than theft.

The problem with your first statement is there is no government that is effective in using money to produce benefits since governments by definition create a bureaucracy that consumes a part of the taxes collected and that does not take into account corruption.

[Deep In The Mines LLC]

Taxation is a necessity for government to function and balance its budget, for the majority of the governments, its also generally a safe way to gain revenue, and sometimes the only way for the government to gain revenue.

Some governments allow the tax-payer to choose how much money to allocate to what, that in my opinion is the right way to do taxes as people feel more contributive, rather than being forced into throwing cash without having much of a say on how its spent.

Some things are quite important for tax money, E.G: Firemen, Police (Althrough some can consider them bad, they are quite important) and so on.

[RealBitcoin]

Some governments allow the tax-payer to choose how much money to allocate to what

Really, like which one?

What if a person chooses to allocate the tax money on himself, a.k.a not paying taxes. What will happen then?

[Deep In The Mines LLC]

Some governments allow the tax-payer to choose how much money to allocate to what

Really, like which one?

What if a person chooses to allocate the tax money on himself, a.k.a not paying taxes. What will happen then?

Dosen't work that way, they let you allocate a percentage of your taxes to what you want it to be used on, E.G: Health and care, Improved infrastructure, Research, Military, and so on.

You can't allocate your taxes to not pay, you have to pay, you just get to choose how your money will be spent.

[margarete11]

Well for me It's not a theft because it is the citizen obligation to pay tax to the government it becomes a theft for me when the government abuses the taxation and put tax in anyting they think they can be tax , here in the philippines they planning to tax when buying some make ups , gadgets and anything that contains sugar , what do you think guys? is this abuse or will this benefit the majority? well for me its an abuse

[BADecker]

Sounds reasonable. So, what makes you so special that you can do it? Are you an attorney?

No, i'm not a lawyer and i havent put out any legal advice here. What makes you think I did?

Well, when you said that you didn't think I should be giving legal advice, weren't you giving me legal advise? After all, I wasn't advising anyone of anything. I was just expounding some info. But you were talking to me, that is, advising me about a legal aspect.

Courts and attorneys are people. They aren't necessarily the smartest people. It's just their focus. Besides, if what you say is true, they would have become kings over us long ago.

Yes they are people with the power of an army behind them, so it doesnt matter if they are wrong, you can appeal I think 3 times and then you are toast.

So if you find 3 bad judges, you are toast. That is the system for you.

So if 50% of the justice system is corrupt, then you have a 12.5% chance of losing a court case, no matter how right you are.

The law applies to government people more than it applies to the rest of us. Why? Because they took an oath to uphold the Constitution... meaning everything that flows out of it as well. Many of the rest of didn't take such an oath.

This means, that you and I have the power of the law to use against them if they do wrong, way more than they have it to use against us. Why? Because they took an oath... signed a contract... to uphold government. You and I didn't. Our name is not listed on any contract. The laws do not apply to us until we accept them as applying to us.

Our legal and lawful strength over government people is way stronger than theirs over us.

Consider. Who can arbitrarily make a law and say that you have to obey it. Your neighbor? The guy down the street? Neither can the people of government arbitrarily make laws  that you have to obey. You have to have some form of acknowledgement of those laws before any of them apply to you.

If you don't understand this, you are a long ways away from freedom.

[RealBitcoin]

Some governments allow the tax-payer to choose how much money to allocate to what

Really, like which one?

What if a person chooses to allocate the tax money on himself, a.k.a not paying taxes. What will happen then?

Dosen't work that way, they let you allocate a percentage of your taxes to what you want it to be used on, E.G: Health and care, Improved infrastructure, Research, Military, and so on.

You can't allocate your taxes to not pay, you have to pay, you just get to choose how your money will be spent.

I know, I was just pointing out the contradiction in your statement.

You said you can allocate your money to be spent on whaever you want, but if the not paying is not on the table, that means that you actually dont have that right.

Or in other words, you can pay others but you cant pay yourself. Which means that you dont have a right to your money, you have to give it away.

So you have to wait for other people to give you money because you cant have your own money.

And then you are at the mercy of other people.

Complete insanity.

[RealBitcoin]

Well, when you said that you didn't think I should be giving legal advice, weren't you giving me legal advise? After all, I wasn't advising anyone of anything. I was just expounding some info. But you were talking to me, that is, advising me about a legal aspect.

Lol, that is not how it works.

First of all by saying "I think" i suggested that it was my opinion, not a universal truth, nor an advice.

Secondly, by warning somebody about a danger, is not the same thing as actually doing the danger.


I probably assumed that you are not a lawyer, and thus putting out legal info is not wise, and in some jurisdiction might even be illegal, without a lawyer license.

People might take that info as a legal advice, and if they fail, then the responsibility could be on you.

So I think at least you should have put some disclaimer at the bottom of that post, warning people that you are not a lawyer.



But again these are just my thoughts, I know little about these things.

The law applies to government people more than it applies to the rest of us. Why? Because they took an oath to uphold the Constitution... meaning everything that flows out of it as well. Many of the rest of didn't take such an oath.

This means, that you and I have the power of the law to use against them if they do wrong, way more than they have it to use against us. Why? Because they took an oath... signed a contract... to uphold government. You and I didn't. Our name is not listed on any contract. The laws do not apply to us until we accept them as applying to us.

Our legal and lawful strength over government people is way stronger than theirs over us.

Consider. Who can arbitrarily make a law and say that you have to obey it. Your neighbor? The guy down the street? Neither can the people of government arbitrarily make laws  that you have to obey. You have to have some form of acknowledgement of those laws before any of them apply to you.

If you don't understand this, you are a long ways away from freedom.

I think that is some pseudo law right there.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pseudolaw


Many libertarians like to play around with that, until they get fucked by it.

The truth is that you can interpret the law in infinite many ways, almost every word you sad could be interpretend in a lot of ways. And it's not you who will interpret them, but an authority.

So basically, you have no rights, because the authority will say what you have and what you dont, whenever they feel like it, and they can justify it however they want.

It's the position of authority that is the ultimate judge either way, so it would be like a rabbit going to a lion's court for a trial about the dinner. The rabbit might argue, but eventually he will be the dinner either way.

[Alfa123]

Well for me It's not a theft because it is the citizen obligation to pay tax to the government it becomes a theft for me when the government abuses the taxation and put tax in anyting they think they can be tax , here in the philippines they planning to tax when buying some make ups , gadgets and anything that contains sugar , what do you think guys? is this abuse or will this benefit the majority? well for me its an abuse

If you voluntarily pay taxes that it is not robbery. And who voluntarily pays them? Probably still a robbery. If officials have not stolen the money from taxes then I think that people in all countries live well. I do believe that more than 10% is robbery.

[santaclaws]

Tax is a necessary evil if we wish to live in a society with police, fire stations, roads and garbage collection. There are many reasons to pay taxes that benefit us. Schools for our children and care for the elderly.

The big problem I have with taxes is when I get taxed on money that I have already been taxed on.

I pay income tax and its quite a lot. So now that I have paid tax on my income why do I have to pay tax on something I'm buying with my income? How about when they are taxing us without telling us. Like taxes on gasoline PLUS the sales tax. WTF. How can I pay tax on tax? Thats right fucked and the legal arm of our governments should be doing something about this robbery. I guess all you can do to get ahead is steal like they do.

[beafheart]

Tax is a necessary evil if we wish to live in a society with police, fire stations, roads and garbage collection. There are many reasons to pay taxes that benefit us. Schools for our children and care for the elderly.

The big problem I have with taxes is when I get taxed on money that I have already been taxed on.

I pay income tax and its quite a lot. So now that I have paid tax on my income why do I have to pay tax on something I'm buying with my income? How about when they are taxing us without telling us. Like taxes on gasoline PLUS the sales tax. WTF. How can I pay tax on tax? Thats right fucked and the legal arm of our governments should be doing something about this robbery. I guess all you can do to get ahead is steal like they do.

Any state is the exploitation of man. Officials steal, the population tries not to pay possible taxes and the government believes that people steal. In the end, all are thieves. Unfortunately methods of dealing with this are not yet invented.

[audaciousbeing]

Looking at it from the position of the taxpayer then its stealing from the moral point because for someone who does not work with you, labour in the sun with you now staying some where asking to give him a share of the income, if that is not theft then tell me what it is? On the otherhand, looking it from the position of government means if this citizen wants good roads or school, bridge, payment of salaries among other things, do they expect me to use my money? Then they have to pay for it so its not stealing. Now from what we have now in this world today, Taxation is not theft because it has been legalized.

[beafheart]

Looking at it from the position of the taxpayer then its stealing from the moral point because for someone who does not work with you, labour in the sun with you now staying some where asking to give him a share of the income, if that is not theft then tell me what it is? On the otherhand, looking it from the position of government means if this citizen wants good roads or school, bridge, payment of salaries among other things, do they expect me to use my money? Then they have to pay for it so its not stealing. Now from what we have now in this world today, Taxation is not theft because it has been legalized.

If the person does not want to work and lives off benefits, I'm against. I wish to pay them their money. Another thing is if my money will go to purchase construction materials, and the unemployed will be free to build bridges.

[andrei56]

Well for me It's not a theft because it is the citizen obligation to pay tax to the government it becomes a theft for me when the government abuses the taxation and put tax in anyting they think they can be tax , here in the philippines they planning to tax when buying some make ups , gadgets and anything that contains sugar , what do you think guys? is this abuse or will this benefit the majority? well for me its an abuse

That is precisely the problem with taxes, in a deep level you think, well they need to run a country so I need to pay, but then they get greedy and they try to get more and more until the people get really mad about it, things can get so bad some governments get overthrown because of it.

[philggg]

taxation is good unless it is not use for what it I'd meant for,tax is use for building the economy, e.g construction of roads ,bridges, hospital and other useful things but if it use for other thing which does not benefit the people or due to corruption that means it I'd not good