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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26370867 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Erdogan
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November 01, 2014, 07:30:15 PM



Is it OK to sell a bitcoin below the current already low price to somebody. Or, do you supply letters of indulgance?
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fonsie
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November 01, 2014, 07:31:58 PM

Since I already lost 2 million dollars, I think I'm going to ride this one out. But don't worry, I should be safe because I only invested about 0.5% of my wealth.

May I ask then, if you are that wealthy, why are you bothering with a cheap-ass referral link in your signature?

So that people can find a reliable solution for securing their bitcoins, with the affiliate link I can monitor the amount of sales that are being done...
grappa_barricata
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November 01, 2014, 07:35:37 PM

Since I already lost 2 million dollars, I think I'm going to ride this one out. But don't worry, I should be safe because I only invested about 0.5% of my wealth.

May I ask then, if you are that wealthy, why are you bothering with a cheap-ass referral link in your signature?

So that people can find a reliable solution for securing their bitcoins, with the affiliate link I can monitor the amount of sales that are being done...

Ah right. Is that you, Bruce Wayne?  Cheesy
JorgeStolfi
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November 01, 2014, 07:37:17 PM

I think a long-term trend is starting to develop.  Any TA pros care to weigh in?

I edited the Wikipedia article on "cup and handle" for style.  Is that "pro" enough?  Grin

The Janyary--April 2013 bubble took the price from ~14$ to ~120$ (steady-state after the oscillations died out), and the November 2013 bubble took it from there to ~800$ (ditto).

It seems pretty certain that the Nov/2013 bubble was due to demand by the "popular" commodity speculation market in Mainland Chinese, opened to bitcoin by Huobi, OKCoin and other Mainland exchanges. That is supported both by articles in the media at the time, and by how the price reacted (and failed to react) to news since Dec/2013.

The Apr/2013 bubble too may be due to China; specifically to BTC-China catering to a different population in Shanghai, a special economic zone in China.

The "mini-bubble" at the end of May/2014, from ~450$ to ~650$, remains unexplained.  However, its rise was sudden and not exponential.  It may have been a few whales (perhaps only one) who got some insider info or original analysis, and "panic bought" a large amount.

From Feb/2014 to May/2014, the price dropped nearly 400$.  Again, that drop was almost certainly due to shrinking of the  Chinese demand in the wake of government decisions.  The overall trend in that period was roughly exponential decay (rouhgly straight in the log-scale chart).  Extrapolating that trend to the present gives ~130$, plus or minus some 30$.

The price is now ~130$ lower than it was at the start of the May mini-bubble. Therefore the drop since Jun/2014 cannot be due solely to that mini-bubble deflating.  On the other hand, the difference between the price extrapolated from Feb--May (~130$) and the current price (~330$) is 200$, the same as the mini-bubble rise from May to June.

There is no sign that large stashes of OLD coins are being sold.  Presumably, those who bought at 10$ or less are not in a hurry to sell, and may choose to hold for another few months in case there is another mega-bubble.  Those who bought in November or later must be feeling very bad and presumably are more likely to sell in order to cut their looses losses.

Therefore, my theory is that the decline since Jun/2014 was due mainly to the Chinese pulling out, according to the same exponential decay trend from Feb to May; while those buyers who caused the May mini-bubble are still holding.

If this theory is correct, then the price should gradually drop to the price before the November bubble (~120$) plus the increase of the May mini-bubble (~200$); that is, only a bit lower than now.  

If the April 2013 bubble too is deflating, but the May mini-bubble is not, then the price should continue to drop gradually to about 14$ + 200$, that is, about 215$.

If the May mini-bubble is deflating too, but the April one is not, the bottom should be ~120$.

If all three bubbles are deflating, the bottom should be in the low double digits.

The markets that were responsible for the pre-2013 bubbles may have continued to grow.  However, the price during their steady-state phases (such as Mar--May 2012) was quite flat, suggesting that the market growth was small or zero.  Also, there is no evidence that use of BTC for e-payment has increased since January, and the attractiveness of BTC as an investment cannot be growing (net sales of SMBIT shares, for example, have been nearly zero for several months.) .  Moreover, the influx of the newly mined coins would cancel some or all of that "vegetative" growth in older markets.


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November 01, 2014, 07:38:26 PM

Since I already lost 2 million dollars, I think I'm going to ride this one out. But don't worry, I should be safe because I only invested about 0.5% of my wealth.

May I ask then, if you are that wealthy, why are you bothering with a cheap-ass referral link in your signature?

So that people can find a reliable solution for securing their bitcoins, with the affiliate link I can monitor the amount of sales that are being done...

Ah right. Is that you, Bruce Wayne?  Cheesy

ssshhhh, don't blow my cover.

I don't want to create another false identity called NotLampChop.
btcney
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November 01, 2014, 07:38:52 PM

Lots of old coins are moving.
fonsie
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November 01, 2014, 07:40:49 PM

Lots of old coins are moving.

Some graphs/proof please or should we take your word for it.
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November 01, 2014, 07:43:09 PM

Dropping like a stone Roll Eyes
fonsie
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November 01, 2014, 07:44:00 PM

Dropping like a stone Roll Eyes

Like some small pebbles you mean.
inca
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November 01, 2014, 07:44:45 PM

Ok the price is going nowhere. Off out for a few pints.
BlindMayorBitcorn
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November 01, 2014, 07:44:55 PM

Dropping like a stone Roll Eyes

Like some small pebbles you mean.

Gravity tends to not discrimintate
fonsie
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November 01, 2014, 07:47:02 PM

Dropping like a stone Roll Eyes

Like some small pebbles you mean.

Gravity tends to not discrimintate

Doesn't it?

BlindMayorBitcorn
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November 01, 2014, 07:48:22 PM

 Cheesy
btcney
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November 01, 2014, 07:49:03 PM

Lots of old coins are moving.

Some graphs/proof please or should we take your word for it.
http://btc.blockr.io/block/info/328067
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November 01, 2014, 07:51:45 PM

But why would they decide to spend money on a long-term pump when they have the shorting bonanza of legends right now for free?

On the other hand, with all the VC money flowing into bitcoin why don´t any of these entrepreneurs do anything to stabilize the price of bitcoin? They sort of depend on bitcoin being an attractive proposition.

Just look at the pump from 300- to 400+, why they did that? Profit. You may think they are net buying during a pump but that is seldom the case. Regarding venture capitalists, most of them are rich kids that will lose all the money their dad has hard-earned during a lifetime. Some of them get lucky, once in a while, but that is all. Do not count on them stabilizing the price.

And now we are back to ≈$300 and peering into the abyss. What could result in bitcoin not plummeting every time it climbs a bit? I understand speculators manipulate the market quite fiercely, but a pump without some new influence on the fundamentals would have to be a bubble, even if it´s from $10 to $100. What would make anyone here honestly believe we where heading up?

We need some news , good news .  Paypal is one of them Wink .

But Paypal is here, it didn´t help. I thought it would. But it didn´t. That´s what makes me worried. If it behaved like a share it should have gone consistently up after such an announcement. If it behaved like a currency it certainly shouldn´t plummit like it does now. If someone wanted to make money it would surely be worthwhile to pump that news to heaven and back, but it just plummited. I would imagine an adoption wave would make XBT prices rise, but who would adopt a digital currency that halves in value in a matter of days. This is not a rhetorical question, I want to know!
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November 01, 2014, 07:53:14 PM


I thought you said "Lots of old coins are moving.", would hardly call that "lots".
BlindMayorBitcorn
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November 01, 2014, 07:54:01 PM

But why would they decide to spend money on a long-term pump when they have the shorting bonanza of legends right now for free?

On the other hand, with all the VC money flowing into bitcoin why don´t any of these entrepreneurs do anything to stabilize the price of bitcoin? They sort of depend on bitcoin being an attractive proposition.

Just look at the pump from 300- to 400+, why they did that? Profit. You may think they are net buying during a pump but that is seldom the case. Regarding venture capitalists, most of them are rich kids that will lose all the money their dad has hard-earned during a lifetime. Some of them get lucky, once in a while, but that is all. Do not count on them stabilizing the price.

And now we are back to ≈$300 and peering into the abyss. What could result in bitcoin not plummeting every time it climbs a bit? I understand speculators manipulate the market quite fiercely, but a pump without some new influence on the fundamentals would have to be a bubble, even if it´s from $10 to $100. What would make anyone here honestly believe we where heading up?

We need some news , good news .  Paypal is one of them Wink .

But Paypal is here, it didn´t help. I thought it would. But it didn´t. That´s what makes me worried. If it behaved like a share it should have gone consistently up after such an announcement. If it behaved like a currency it certainly shouldn´t plummit like it does now. If someone wanted to make money it would surely be worthwhile to pump that news to heaven and back, but it just plummited. I would imagine an adoption wave would make XBT prices rise, but who would adopt a digital currency that halves in value in a matter of days. This is not a rhetorical question, I want to know!

Degenerate gamblers?


.... Grin
JorgeStolfi
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November 01, 2014, 07:54:18 PM

Now bigger, smarter, girthier kids are providing the surprise buttsecs.

There is way more money in it for them to rally the price higher yet again than crashing the market into the floor. Hundreds of millions of VC money, infrastructure, rising user numbers, potential ETF to draw in investment capital. It's really a matter of when we go up. There is too much money to be made in this space for us not to mount another bubble or three. I still think this is all a distribution phase prior to the next run up. Unless we smash below the previous ATH on heavy volume, bitcoin days destroyed goes berzerk, or the black swan - the US comes out and bans bitcoin. Smiley

I don't see how one can make money with a pure pump-and-dump strategy (buying to increase the price, then selling at the higher price).  Sounds like those old perpetual-motion machines where falling weights are supposed to pull other weights up.  A successful pump-and-dump must include substantial misleading marketing as well.

Venture capital (which seems to grow 2--3x each time the original estimates are re-quoted  Grin) has been going mostly into auxiliary services like exchanges, payment processors, fund management, gambling sites, etc.  Those enterprises do not profit from BTC price increase, but from fees collected from BTC users.  While increasing price and/or usage would increase their fees, the investment they would have to make in order to pump the price is much more than what they expect to profit from the resulting price increase.

There is no data on actual BTC usage for e-commerce.  More shops accepting bitcoins may be just splitting the same market niche (owners of old coins who decide to cash in by shopping) over a larger merchant base.  Ditto for the increasing numbers of payment processors, funds, gamblings sites etc..
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November 01, 2014, 07:57:50 PM

analysis of bubbles

Hi Jorge. Nice analysis. I was thinking about the May/June rally and its demise... look at the 'phases' (always few very big market buys) and the price levels (especially on the way down). What i think is that many people were expecting a new bubble to start before August and some big player gave them the illusion of that, trapping lots of money above 600$.
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November 01, 2014, 07:59:28 PM

$319.88 here it comes again!
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