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Question: Will bitcoin ever go below $10K again in your lifetime?
Yes - 12 (40%)
No - 18 (60%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 22638476 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (148 posts by 37 users deleted.)
Rosewater Foundation
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November 08, 2017, 10:57:30 PM


I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has...  ...)))) with Starbucks.  Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.

LN is a toy. Who gives a shit? Who gives a shit about buying gewgaws from bloody Amazon?
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November 08, 2017, 11:00:45 PM


I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has...  ...)))) with Starbucks.  Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.

LN is a toy. Who gives a shit? Who gives a shit about buying gewgaws from bloody Amazon?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476196/number-of-active-amazon-customer-accounts-quarter/
Rosewater Foundation
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November 08, 2017, 11:03:01 PM

ok well... Tongue
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November 08, 2017, 11:07:47 PM


I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has...  ...)))) with Starbucks.  Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.

You will open an account (payment channel) with a bank (lightning node hub) which routes your payments where they need to go. The lightning network will certainly evolve to be central hubs routing payments.  These banks (lightning node hubs) will settle on the blockchain when you close your account (payment channel) but otherwise won't really need the blockchain much.

Unless I'm mistaken
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November 08, 2017, 11:19:01 PM


I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has...  ...)))) with Starbucks.  Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.
It's still peer to peer (no central authority), but not one-to-one. There will be multiple routes. Irregular mesh topology over Tor.

You will open an account (payment channel) with a bank (lightning node hub) which routes your payments where they need to go. The lightning network will certainly evolve to be central hubs routing payments.  These banks (lightning node hubs) will settle on the blockchain when you close your account (payment channel) but otherwise won't really need the blockchain much.

Unless I'm mistaken

Right, not much need for on-chain stuff except opening/closing channels. Or possibly topping them up, I am still not clear on what will happen with "refill" operations as the protocol evolves. The hubs will be "central" only in the sense of "hyperconnected, with lots of money at stake in multiple channels". They won't be able to censor transactions or tamper with the protocol - or even figure out where the coins ultimately go. Hubs can be routed around if desired or necessary. Someone else will get the fees - if any. Not that shabby, is it?
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November 08, 2017, 11:21:21 PM

Open a node over Tor for online shopping. w/e Cheesy
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November 08, 2017, 11:22:53 PM

Open a node over Tor for online shopping. w/e Cheesy
Are you trolling? BTC can already use Tor as the network layer if it works on your BTC node.
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November 08, 2017, 11:25:21 PM

Open a node over Tor for online shopping. w/e Cheesy
Are you trolling? BTC can already use Tor as the network layer if it works on your BTC node.
No I just don't get it. Isn't there a law about using fiat for shopping, because it's basically disintegrating anyway? Gresham or Hanlon or Newton...there's a law.
Sorry, I'll butt out.
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November 08, 2017, 11:28:28 PM

Open a node over Tor for online shopping. w/e Cheesy
Are you trolling? BTC can already use Tor as the network layer if it works on your BTC node.
No I just don't get it. Isn't there a law about using fiat for shopping, because it's basically disintegrating anyway? Gresham or Hanlon or Newton...there's a law.

The "bad money pushes good money out of circulation" law? That's Gresham's.
But - admitting you wish to use BTC for coffee or whatever - it will be your LN client that manages the Tor connection, figures out a route to the recipient, and initiates the transaction. You don't have to actually set up any Tor node.
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November 08, 2017, 11:34:26 PM


I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has...  ...)))) with Starbucks.  Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.
It's still peer to peer (no central authority), but not one-to-one. There will be multiple routes. Irregular mesh topology over Tor.

You will open an account (payment channel) with a bank (lightning node hub) which routes your payments where they need to go. The lightning network will certainly evolve to be central hubs routing payments.  These banks (lightning node hubs) will settle on the blockchain when you close your account (payment channel) but otherwise won't really need the blockchain much.

Unless I'm mistaken

Right, not much need for on-chain stuff except opening/closing channels. Or possibly topping them up, I am still not clear on what will happen with "refill" operations as the protocol evolves. The hubs will be "central" only in the sense of "hyperconnected, with lots of money at stake in multiple channels". They won't be able to censor transactions or tamper with the protocol - or even figure out where the coins ultimately go. Hubs can be routed around if desired or necessary. Someone else will get the fees - if any. Not that shabby, is it?

I appreciate your answers. It sounds very interesting, but still highly speculative.
I have a question, related to the bitcoin incentive system. What will happen in the long term, when the reward for each block decreases, and a large part of the transactions are made out of the chain?
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November 08, 2017, 11:42:33 PM

I have a question, related to the bitcoin incentive system. What will happen in the long term, when the reward for each block decreases, and a large part of the transactions are made out of the chain?

It will not matter what will happen, the "root" of the value will always be a chain. if they want to raise the value of business they do off-chain they will always have to raise the value of the chain first.
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How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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November 08, 2017, 11:55:34 PM

We can celebrate, but let's not gloat guys.

I, for one, praise the S2X camp for achieving the internal consensus to pull back from the brink.

We will eventually, in a safe and orderly manner, address their concerns regarding scaling.

In the end, they behaved like rational adults.  Perhaps we can have nice things.


You are too nice....  Roll Eyes


Giving too much credit to confirmed terrorists.    Tongue
afbitcoins
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November 09, 2017, 12:01:44 AM


I can be wrong, correct me if I do.
To use LN you must create payment channels. If I want to buy something on Amazon, I should open a payment channel with Amazon. But, if tomorrow I want to buy something on Ebay, I must also open a channel with them? And if later I want to buy a coffee at Starbucks, should I open another channel?

No such need, as long as you share a channel with a node (that has a channel shared with a node (that has...  ...)))) with Starbucks.  Same for Amazon. It's a mesh network. The general opinion is that there will be enough channels open to reach any relevant agent.

Ah you mean like Bitcoin? But then without the peer to peer? Sounds great.
It's still peer to peer (no central authority), but not one-to-one. There will be multiple routes. Irregular mesh topology over Tor.

You will open an account (payment channel) with a bank (lightning node hub) which routes your payments where they need to go. The lightning network will certainly evolve to be central hubs routing payments.  These banks (lightning node hubs) will settle on the blockchain when you close your account (payment channel) but otherwise won't really need the blockchain much.

Unless I'm mistaken

Right, not much need for on-chain stuff except opening/closing channels. Or possibly topping them up, I am still not clear on what will happen with "refill" operations as the protocol evolves. The hubs will be "central" only in the sense of "hyperconnected, with lots of money at stake in multiple channels". They won't be able to censor transactions or tamper with the protocol - or even figure out where the coins ultimately go. Hubs can be routed around if desired or necessary. Someone else will get the fees - if any. Not that shabby, is it?

Very tough question for me, how shabby? On the face of it sounds quite cool. But deep down I remain very suspicious of lightning network which stems from my distrust of banks. It feels like a banking layer being plonked down on top of bitcoin with the aim of bypassing hard money constraints that having transactions logged on a blockchain imposses. I have immense dislike of banking system which is what led me to bitcoin in the first place. "Be your own bank" At least having bitcoin as a settlement layer is a constraint of some form. It could be that the system if it does go that way will be a bit like an updated gold standard system whereas gold used to be the settlement layer now it will be bitcoin.
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November 09, 2017, 12:04:58 AM

There's no point in talking about Lightning Networks until we get some actual ones to play with. Until then it's completely pointless conjecture. Ain't no one who knows what they're going to be yet.
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November 09, 2017, 12:07:26 AM



You are too nice....  Roll Eyes



Perhaps, but I think it is important now to take the high road and build a path forward with as broad a consensus as possible.  While actual evil actors may have been at work in this drama, many in the other camp do, in fact, have genuine concerns and believe that they are acting in the best interests of Bitcoin.  I may disagree with them on how we get there, or even on where "there" is, but these people are not the evil ones.

Bitcoin will find it's real enemies, let us not make them out of our friends.
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November 09, 2017, 12:11:08 AM



You are too nice....  Roll Eyes



Perhaps, but I think it is important now to take the high road and build a path forward with as broad a consensus as possible.  While actual evil actors may have been at work in this drama, many in the other camp do, in fact, have genuine concerns and believe that they are acting in the best interests of Bitcoin.  I may disagree with them on how we get there, or even on where "there" is, but these people are not the evil ones.

Bitcoin will find it's real enemies, let us not make them out of our friends.

Another civil war has come to an end. Bygones will be bygones.
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November 09, 2017, 12:22:28 AM

https://medium.com/@bartjellema/why-i-just-bought-90-b2x-bitcoin-segwit2x-futures-f94d0ee13eb9

(You only need to read the title)
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November 09, 2017, 12:27:00 AM

Quote
So if SegWit2X becomes the needed upgrade to Bitcoin it’s trying to be, I walk away with a cool half mil. If not I take maybe a $40k hit. I think my odds are pretty good here, but time will tell.

smh
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November 09, 2017, 12:31:01 AM

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So if SegWit2X becomes the needed upgrade to Bitcoin it’s trying to be, I walk away with a cool half mil. If not I take maybe a $40k hit. I think my odds are pretty good here, but time will tell.

smh

I wonder how one feels when he has forever publicly documented his stupidity. He is probably stabbing Jeff Garzik's voodoo doll the whole day today...
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November 09, 2017, 12:31:10 AM

Ouch
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