Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[nioc]

HAHA, we finally got a selfie of trollypop w/ her entourage. Seriously tho, did Adam get his computer taken away by the wife again or is he on vacation? Dude is abandoning his own thread when things are starting to heat up.

He posted a few days ago that he is on vacation and will not be posting.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[Erdogan]

You are obviusly not stupid, and yes, the value is defined not by the beer in itself, but individuals, considering it, all persons are different, so there is no yardstick, it is personal, psychological, individual. Every price you see, is the value from individuals preferring, with the help of their total life experience and individual needs, one thing over another. Is this your problem, do you think that therefore, we can not group value into two distinct types, intrinsic and speculative?

Oh, we can have many groups of value. In fact, I would say that intrinsic and speculative would surely not be enough since, in my book, intrinsic value would be an empty set. Speculative is a subset of extrinsic value since one might value something not merely because one hopes to exchange it for increased value/price later.

Now, the intrinsic properties of gold might have subjective value in the common sphere. It is shiny, resists corrosion, easily malleable, heavy (dense), all that jazz. But all those are location, time and context dependent.

At this stage, I think we both see where the other is coming from so there's little point beating it to death and there are many better places to read about the arguments. Austrian economics just tends to reject the idea of intrinsic value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

Again, you seem to be fixed on the word subjective, as if it under discussion. Who talks about objective value? Not me. Your struggle with the word intrinsic, is as if you are hypnotized, and programmed to go into delirium mode when the word intrinsic is uttered.

Well your attitude is not helpful. It is destructive. It is a barrier to learning a meaningful aspect of money.

And no, there are no better places for this discussion. This is the best place.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[PoolMinor]

Placed my bids at an avg. of $276, let's see how it goes...

I expect the next entry point to be as low as $1 = 0.00353357BTC

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[Fatman3001]

You are obviusly not stupid, and yes, the value is defined not by the beer in itself, but individuals, considering it, all persons are different, so there is no yardstick, it is personal, psychological, individual. Every price you see, is the value from individuals preferring, with the help of their total life experience and individual needs, one thing over another. Is this your problem, do you think that therefore, we can not group value into two distinct types, intrinsic and speculative?

Oh, we can have many groups of value. In fact, I would say that intrinsic and speculative would surely not be enough since, in my book, intrinsic value would be an empty set. Speculative is a subset of extrinsic value since one might value something not merely because one hopes to exchange it for increased value/price later.

Now, the intrinsic properties of gold might have subjective value in the common sphere. It is shiny, resists corrosion, easily malleable, heavy (dense), all that jazz. But all those are location, time and context dependent.

At this stage, I think we both see where the other is coming from so there's little point beating it to death and there are many better places to read about the arguments. Austrian economics just tends to reject the idea of intrinsic value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

Again, you seem to be fixed on the word subjective, as if it under discussion. Who talks about objective value? Not me. Your struggle with the word intrinsic, is as if you are hypnotized, and programmed to go into delirium mode when the word intrinsic is uttered.

Well your attitude is not helpful. It is destructive. It is a barrier to learning a meaningful aspect of money.

And no, there are no better places for this discussion. This is the best place.

The reason he might seem "as if [he is] hypnotized" is that that is what you are discussing. Does gold have intrinsic value? Is there such a thing as intrinsic value in economics or are all concepts of value in economics subjective? His position is a non-positivistic one.

[ticoti]

I expect lateral markets with going down progresively from now on
Greece problem is over right now, and market has to stabilize

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[TerraMaster]

I can't believe you guys are still talking about  intrinsic value....

Since I have no clue on how to explain intrinsic value. I looked it up lol

Watch the video midway down the page. Very simple now to understand or explain 

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/intrinsicvalue.asp

[Fatman3001]

I can't believe you guys are still talking about  intrinsic value....

Since I have no clue on how to explain intrinsic value. I looked it up lol

Watch the video midway down the page. Very simple now to understand or explain  

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/intrinsicvalue.asp

The problem occurred when aztecminer claimed that gold will always have intrinsic value. This problem can't be solved by purely looking at the problem through the specter of the financial definition of intrinsic value, since the basis of the premise is that the value of gold remains regardless of the market. So what do you have left? You can either claim that gold has intrinsic value, as in value in itself, through the specter of kantian concepts of value, which I doubt anyone is suggesting (come to think of it, not so sure anymore). Or, that gold has intrinsic value, value in itself, via a positivistic epistemological conception. I guess you could argue for this last one, but positivism is a very unsatisfactory basis for anything.

Edit: I might be reading too much into this.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[Erdogan]

You are obviusly not stupid, and yes, the value is defined not by the beer in itself, but individuals, considering it, all persons are different, so there is no yardstick, it is personal, psychological, individual. Every price you see, is the value from individuals preferring, with the help of their total life experience and individual needs, one thing over another. Is this your problem, do you think that therefore, we can not group value into two distinct types, intrinsic and speculative?

Oh, we can have many groups of value. In fact, I would say that intrinsic and speculative would surely not be enough since, in my book, intrinsic value would be an empty set. Speculative is a subset of extrinsic value since one might value something not merely because one hopes to exchange it for increased value/price later.

Now, the intrinsic properties of gold might have subjective value in the common sphere. It is shiny, resists corrosion, easily malleable, heavy (dense), all that jazz. But all those are location, time and context dependent.

At this stage, I think we both see where the other is coming from so there's little point beating it to death and there are many better places to read about the arguments. Austrian economics just tends to reject the idea of intrinsic value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value

Again, you seem to be fixed on the word subjective, as if it under discussion. Who talks about objective value? Not me. Your struggle with the word intrinsic, is as if you are hypnotized, and programmed to go into delirium mode when the word intrinsic is uttered.

Well your attitude is not helpful. It is destructive. It is a barrier to learning a meaningful aspect of money.

And no, there are no better places for this discussion. This is the best place.

The reason he might seem "as if [he is] hypnotized" is that that is what you are discussing. Does gold have intrinsic value? Is there such a thing as intrinsic value in economics or are all concepts of value in economics subjective? His position is a non-positivistic one.

Intrinsic value and subjective value are not opposite.

All value in economics is subjective, it is a strictly human concept, unmeasurable because it is different for every person, and it depends on everything in that persons life. Your question implies that only one of intrinsic and subjective is possible, and my response is no. Someone values something, it is subjective (it depends on the person valuing). That value can be either intrinsic to the thing valued, or the value can be decided by that individual based on the assumption that it can be exchanged for something else. That something else can also be exchange value (money value, speculative value), or it can be something of intrinsic value (value for direct use). In the end of the chain, there must be someting of intrinsic value, even if the time to exchange the money to something directly useful is deferred over generations. There is not much reason to collect money and keep them for ever, which is equivalent to destroying them.

[Erdogan]

I can't believe you guys are still talking about  intrinsic value....

Since I have no clue on how to explain intrinsic value. I looked it up lol

Watch the video midway down the page. Very simple now to understand or explain 

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/intrinsicvalue.asp

I am somewhat disbelieving too.

[Fatman3001]

I can't believe you guys are still talking about  intrinsic value....

Since I have no clue on how to explain intrinsic value. I looked it up lol

Watch the video midway down the page. Very simple now to understand or explain  

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/intrinsicvalue.asp

I am somewhat disbelieving too.

Sry, back to my gifs.



CCMF!!!

[Erdogan]

I can't believe you guys are still talking about  intrinsic value....

Since I have no clue on how to explain intrinsic value. I looked it up lol

Watch the video midway down the page. Very simple now to understand or explain  

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/intrinsicvalue.asp

The problem occurred when aztecminer claimed that gold will always have intrinsic value. This problem can't be solved by purely looking at the problem through the specter of the financial definition of intrinsic value, since the basis of the premise is that the value of gold remains regardless of the market. So what do you have left? You can either claim that gold has intrinsic value, as in value in itself, through the specter of kantian concepts of value, which I doubt anyone is suggesting (come to think of it, not so sure anymore). Or, that gold has intrinsic value, value in itself, via a positivistic epistemological conception. I guess you could argue for this last one, but positivism is a very unsatisfactory basis for anything.

Edit: I might be reading too much into this.

When you have the concepts well defined, it is straighforward.

Gold has partly intrinsic value, it is directly useful, and "regardless of the market" (your words). The last human on the planet (no market) can use it for something for himself, for benefit or pleasure. Only, of course, if that individual prefers it to something else (subjective).

This is in fact essential to gold bugs. If gold should lose its money value (due to bitcoin may be), it will still be around, have value, traded in the market, dispersed among the people of the earth, due to its intrinsic value. Therefore, in a catastrophic technology event where computers disappear, gold can take on the money function, and in which case it will regain its money value. A plus for gold.

Bitcoin does not have that. If it goes to zero in a catastrophic event (which it can because there is no intrinsic value), there is no special reason that it will regain its value. The world could just as well start a new blockchain.

The intrinsic value of gold is also essential for Mises' regression theorem, which has also been discussed here thoroughly.

Just two examples of how useful the concept is.

[Erdogan]

[...]
Sry, back to my gifs.



CCMF!!!

I'm Ok with gifs.

[macsga]

[...]
Sry, back to my gifs.



CCMF!!!

I'm Ok with gifs.

R3KT captured on tape... Did the door open again or he had to hit his Willy to every concrete wall during his trip home?

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[cbeast]

Preparing for 300.