Bitcoin Forum
November 11, 2024, 12:28:49 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 28.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Poll
Question: When will BTC get back above $70K:
7/14 - 0 (0%)
7/21 - 1 (0.8%)
7/28 - 11 (8.9%)
8/4 - 16 (12.9%)
8/11 - 8 (6.5%)
8/18 - 6 (4.8%)
8/25 - 8 (6.5%)
After August - 74 (59.7%)
Total Voters: 124

Pages: « 1 ... 15958 15959 15960 15961 15962 15963 15964 15965 15966 15967 15968 15969 15970 15971 15972 15973 15974 15975 15976 15977 15978 15979 15980 15981 15982 15983 15984 15985 15986 15987 15988 15989 15990 15991 15992 15993 15994 15995 15996 15997 15998 15999 16000 16001 16002 16003 16004 16005 16006 16007 [16008] 16009 16010 16011 16012 16013 16014 16015 16016 16017 16018 16019 16020 16021 16022 16023 16024 16025 16026 16027 16028 16029 16030 16031 16032 16033 16034 16035 16036 16037 16038 16039 16040 16041 16042 16043 16044 16045 16046 16047 16048 16049 16050 16051 16052 16053 16054 16055 16056 16057 16058 ... 33909 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26490909 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 3892
Merit: 11154


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
December 08, 2016, 08:13:40 PM


[edited out]


Ok, I think we're cool now JJG.  

I don't think that we are quite "cool" because in one sense, I was thinking that you were being "cool" to post your China/Trump post, but then you had to come back in "attack mode."

Further, your below explanation seems to be an attempt to eek some kind of victory out of a situation in which there does not seem to be any kind of need for a victor. no?


As long as you finally realize that a) speculation is just that, pure BS speculation, and b) that not everyone that disagrees with you or has an opinion that differs from yours is "trolling" the forum.  

Why would I agree to those conditions, they are not self-sustaining and non-controversial, and I don't even agree with either of them.

>>>>>a) speculation is just that, pure BS speculation,<<<<<

I don't have a problem with speculation.  My participation and interactions on this thread should demonstrate that.

As you should realize, all forms of speculation are not equal... some speculations are better backed up by facts and/or logic than other speculations. 

Sometimes there may be a need to back up speculation further especially if you might be engaging with another poster who makes a genuine request for a further explanation about how you arrived at your various conclusions, facts and/or logic.  Sometimes, the further explanation may be sufficient by asserting that it is just a feeling or that I looked at the stars or I am relying on numerology, as long as there is a kind of an attempt to interact rather than merely changing the topic and going into ad hominem attack mode without any kind of justification.




>>>>>b) that not everyone that disagrees with you or has an opinion that differs from yours is "trolling" the forum<<<<


Like I inferred above, posters can agree on all kinds of levels with me (facts, logic, conclusions), and probably I would not label them as a troll unless they have shown repeated conduct of engaging in various kinds of disingenuineness... sure a troll could recover and begin to engage in non-trolling comment, but that would not necessarily mean that the earlier conduct was not appearing to rise to the level of trolling.





By your post history, you seem to believe that everyone here that might have a short term bearish sentiment is a mere bear/troll account that needs calling out, which is just not true.  

Probably you are misreading my posts.


As a long time permabull that has outlasted many others on this sub forum, I get prickly whenever someone tries to call me out on some short term bearish sentiment I may have (which I don't have right now) depending on the day, and try to paint me as a troll.


No need to take it personally.  I am describing my perception of your behavior, and I am not wedded to permanently labelling anyone, unless their ongoing conduct would continue to justify such a label.




 I can guarantee I'm a bigger long term bull than you and many others are.


Who cares? And why should it matter?




It's my opinion that we should have been well north of $1K many years ago, that's how much I think bitcoin is undervalued right now.

Who knows?  Maybe we agree on some of these kinds of conclusions, but that does not mean that we necessarily agree on all of the relevant facts or the logic of how to get from point A to point B.


In other words, we should be able to have posts that engage on the topic rather than getting into attempts at oracle status or other kinds of status assertions.




That being said, though, just throwing numbers out there with no data to even remotely try to back it up is nothing more than uninformed cheerleading.  Which is fine, just call it for what it is.

Maybe we agree on the essence of this point?  Yet, I am not sure.  Sometimes, actions speak louder than words.

I think that if we take any particular post in context, then it is more relevant to talk about the contents of that particular post or a series of posts that are within the same spirit of the contents of a particular post rather than getting into various global generalizations that may or may not be relevant discussing the contents of a particular post topic.  For example, if in another post from a year ago, I said x, y and z, but in a current post I said a, b and c and not x, y nor z, then it may or may not be relevant that a year ago I said x, y and z; however, it could be relevant.. Whether it is relevant or not depends upon the context, no?  But at the same time, it could be necessary that I explain, especially if someone genuinely asks me in such a way that is not merely attacking me, but attempting to get clarification of the then seeming contradiction, which could potentially end up being a mere misunderstanding, no?





hulla
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1834
Merit: 566



View Profile
December 08, 2016, 08:16:58 PM

Saxo Bank prediction is that bitcoin will be 2100$ next year. Guys, it true that the price of bitcoin will reach 2100$ in the year 2017?
JimboToronto
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4186
Merit: 4865


You're never too old to think young.


View Profile
December 08, 2016, 08:17:52 PM

When are we actually gonna pass ATH Jimbo?  

I wish I could see into the future. I'd break my anti-gambling rule and already be rich.  Cheesy

I guess the ATH depends on where you are. Americans need current prices to rise 66% to reach an ATH, while Canadians only need to rise less than 25%.

If I have to take a stab at it, I'd say some time in 2017 for us Canadians and sometime in 2017-8 for Americans. I'm not all that familiar with other currencies but I think the yuan might be quicker than the USD. As for the rupee, aren't they getting close? I don't even want to mention the Chilean peso.  Grin
JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 3892
Merit: 11154


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
December 08, 2016, 08:34:21 PM

It's my opinion that we should have been well north of $1K many years ago, that's how much I think bitcoin is undervalued right now.

I fully agree with that. While it was over $1k 3 years ago, that was an artificial high.

Follow the exponential rise from a fifth of a penny in May 2010, through dime later that year, a dollar several months later, bubbling up past $39 in the Great Bubble only to settle in at over $2 later that year, then less than half a year later setting a new ATH at $266 during the second major bubble, only to drop to $50, and then reach $1200 during the 3rd big bubble.

The peaks of the 3 mega-bubbles all rose above the trend lines and were quickly brought back down to earth. Since then we've been substantially below the trend lines and are only recently recovering. The 2014-2015 prices in the $200s were as much an anomaly as the prices in the $5-$10 range were in 2012.

Of course Bitcoin is undervalued now. We have a lot of catching up to do.

agreed.  It is undervalued indeed but the value is showing so much maturity. Volatility seems a thing of the past: it will come back eventually but we saw much happening recently and price is still keeping up. To me that's good. I predicted 850 by the end of the year. We still have time


bitcoin may be undervalued for multiple reasons

future use of bitcoin
future developing markets we may not yet see
current fiat not viable in the future
mining revenue
limitation on the amount of bitcoin
the block chain and its inherent values

whats important to remember is what is driving the current market and where is the new bottom price going to stabilize at, previous bottom averaged at $240 USD



I agree with everything that you say, but regarding your last point, it seems that you are getting one step ahead of yourself, no?

We can have a working theory about the new resting point of the bottom, yet it seems somewhat depending on the intensity of the top too...

If we get some kind of mirroring of past performance, that may not be exactly scientific, then the top of the next bubble could be anywhere between $1,200 and $14,000, and I personally hypothesize that it would most reasonably land in the $3k to $5k territory, and if that happens, then the bottom would likely come resting back down in the $900 to $1,300 territory.  On the other hand, if the top ends up playing out in a different way than expected, then that kind of outcome would likely materially and significantly change the next step.   Accordingly, I think that there are too many steps in order to attempt to put any kind of range on the bottom without really knowing how the top plays out (which is also highly speculative, at this point). 




JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 3892
Merit: 11154


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
December 08, 2016, 09:47:17 PM

...the value is showing so much maturity. Volatility seems a thing of the past...

Maybe, but let's not forget that in 2012 volatility seemed to be done also. Then we had 2013.

I don't think we'll have quite the volatility as we had during the 3 great bubbles (or even last spring's micro-bubble) when it rocketed up in a few short weeks and plummeted just as quickly.

Hopefully the next bubble will take several months (or even years) instead of just weeks. The fractals of the bubbles are remarkably similar, but they are getting taller, longer, and with longer intervals between them.

Eventually one of them will be where the s-curve goes "vertical". Then the exponential growth phase will be done and the price will exponentially level off.

Hahahahaha

The wisdom that we gets is why we's gots to respect our elders - whether they be elder or not.   Cheesy


I do have one question in regards to your concept of "exponentially level off."  I gather that you are considering this to take place after we have experienced one or more exponential growth periods, then thereafter there would be a kind of post exponential period?  I ask for this clarification because I understand the concept of "exponential" and "level" to be in tension with one another.


Andre#
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 737
Merit: 500


View Profile
December 08, 2016, 09:56:52 PM

Edit: and how about https://transferwise.com/? Seems a great solution for remittances!

I used these jokers back in 2013 to wire money to Bitstamp as it was cheaper, until, lo and behold they banned deposits to all Bitcoin exchanges. If you trigger a hidden threshold, you also have to supply ID.

A year ago, I was arbitraging between Europe and India, and used them pay BTC sellers in India. When I hit the hidden threshold, they called me. While having a friendly chat, I was asked what I was paying for. Told them it was for Bitcoin (why not, I thought, it aint illegal). Next thing they do is close my (already verified) account.
Cassius
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1031


View Profile WWW
December 08, 2016, 10:00:44 PM

When are we actually gonna pass ATH Jimbo?  

I wish I could see into the future. I'd break my anti-gambling rule and already be rich.  Cheesy

I guess the ATH depends on where you are. Americans need current prices to rise 66% to reach an ATH, while Canadians only need to rise less than 25%.

If I have to take a stab at it, I'd say some time in 2017 for us Canadians and sometime in 2017-8 for Americans. I'm not all that familiar with other currencies but I think the yuan might be quicker than the USD. As for the rupee, aren't they getting close? I don't even want to mention the Chilean peso.  Grin

If you're in India or Nigeria, you've already seen ATH Smiley
In terms of market cap, which I'd say is a fairer measure, I think we're there in USD too.
European Central Bank
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288
Merit: 1087



View Profile
December 08, 2016, 10:06:42 PM

A year ago, I was arbitraging between Europe and India, and used them pay BTC sellers in India. When I hit the hidden threshold, they called me. While having a friendly chat, I was asked what I was paying for. Told them it was for Bitcoin (why not, I thought, it aint illegal). Next thing they do is close my (already verified) account.

they have to keep their banking relationships happy. that outweighs anything to do with bitcoin. i think i read somewhere them saying good things about bitcoin but they had to stop dealing with it.
JimboToronto
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4186
Merit: 4865


You're never too old to think young.


View Profile
December 08, 2016, 10:16:05 PM

I do have one question in regards to your concept of "exponentially level off."  I gather that you are considering this to take place after we have experienced one or more exponential growth periods, then thereafter there would be a kind of post exponential period?  I ask for this clarification because I understand the concept of "exponential" and "level" to be in tension with one another.

I was referring to the standard s-curve. At the start it moves up slowly and increases exponentially until it becomes almost vertical at the point of most adoption. Then it switches over and the rate of increase decreases, slowly at first then exponentially until it has leveled off at saturation and is horizontal.

This video is over 3 years old but its principles still hold strong:

https://youtu.be/qHUPPYzzZrI?list=PLzctEq7iZD-7-DgJM604zsndMapn9ff6q
JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 3892
Merit: 11154


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
December 08, 2016, 11:00:30 PM

I do have one question in regards to your concept of "exponentially level off."  I gather that you are considering this to take place after we have experienced one or more exponential growth periods, then thereafter there would be a kind of post exponential period?  I ask for this clarification because I understand the concept of "exponential" and "level" to be in tension with one another.

I was referring to the standard s-curve. At the start it moves up slowly and increases exponentially until it becomes almost vertical at the point of most adoption. Then it switches over and the rate of increase decreases, slowly at first then exponentially until it has leveled off at saturation and is horizontal.

This video is over 3 years old but its principles still hold strong:

https://youtu.be/qHUPPYzzZrI?list=PLzctEq7iZD-7-DgJM604zsndMapn9ff6q


Thanks for that clarification Jimbo.  I had not seen that video, and sure it seems to still be applicable to current bitcoin dynamics (or potential dynamics).
LFC_Bitcoin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3710
Merit: 10446


#1 VIP Crypto Casino


View Profile
December 08, 2016, 11:04:25 PM

We can definitely hope. It doesn't seem like a realily unrealistic prediction/forecast. We'd all be really happy if that kind of price became a reality.
Fakhoury
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1386
Merit: 1027


Permabull Bitcoin Investor


View Profile
December 08, 2016, 11:39:23 PM

When are we actually gonna pass ATH Jimbo?  

I wish I could see into the future. I'd break my anti-gambling rule and already be rich.  Cheesy

I guess the ATH depends on where you are. Americans need current prices to rise 66% to reach an ATH, while Canadians only need to rise less than 25%.

If I have to take a stab at it, I'd say some time in 2017 for us Canadians and sometime in 2017-8 for Americans. I'm not all that familiar with other currencies but I think the yuan might be quicker than the USD. As for the rupee, aren't they getting close? I don't even want to mention the Chilean peso.  Grin

Brother, most probably next year we will see $2K-$4K

Why ?

1. COIN ETF
2. BitCache and Megaupload 2
3. Saxo Bank predication (They predicated the Brexit back in 2014)

This is only few to list.
Meuh6879
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012



View Profile
December 08, 2016, 11:49:20 PM

Or ... cashless society.

JimboToronto
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4186
Merit: 4865


You're never too old to think young.


View Profile
December 09, 2016, 12:05:23 AM

Brother, most probably next year we will see $2K-$4K.

No argument from me on that one.

I was being conservative in my speculation. I figured we'd be there already if it weren't for Gox and 2014 setting us back a year.

We may have different reasons for that expectation but it seems we have similar ideas about where it will end up.

I see it having more to do with adoption in more and more new markets. The Cypriot banking crisis drove the spring bubble of 2013 while the autumn bubble of that year was driven in part by China coming onboard. Just as quickly, rumors of Chinese Bitcoin bans burst that bubble.

This spring's micro bubble was driven in part by the halving, but speculation about Brexit also played a large role. More recently it's been about cash and gold restrictions in India and uncertainty about Italian banks.

Who'll be next?
yefi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2842
Merit: 1511



View Profile
December 09, 2016, 12:10:28 AM

they have to keep their banking relationships happy. that outweighs anything to do with bitcoin. i think i read somewhere them saying good things about bitcoin but they had to stop dealing with it.

Really? I'm sure the CEO said the opposite - that Bitcoin was dead and that nobody uses it.
kurious
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2590
Merit: 1643



View Profile
December 09, 2016, 01:01:00 AM

they have to keep their banking relationships happy. that outweighs anything to do with bitcoin. i think i read somewhere them saying good things about bitcoin but they had to stop dealing with it.

Really? I'm sure the CEO said the opposite - that Bitcoin was dead and that nobody uses it.

I used to use them for a while and then when I sent a translator in France a payment for a translation for a job I was (legitimately) doing in French about Moscow and I put a reference 'Moscow translation' on the payment it was held up for ages, I complained and they asked (extensively) what it was for, why I was doing it etc.

I said it was a transfer of funds in Euros - exactly what they were advertising was 'easy' with their service. They were suspicious because of the use of the word 'Moscow' that it was a breach of Russian trade embargoes / money laundering etc. which was ridiculous.

They refused this legitimate (and totally legal) money transfer for UK to France totally and so I never used them again, and I never will.

One day, I will do all of this in Bitcoin - right now, realitstically I can't, but it's not long way off.  No one else can offer these legitimate payments without excessive charges and / or 'questions' about 'why ' a person wants to do it.

They are resisting the tide along with all the others.  This is why crypto will win and fiat banks will lose in the long run.

Long live frictionless, cheap transfer of money across borders. Long live BTC.

Meuh6879
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012



View Profile
December 09, 2016, 01:03:40 AM

Yes, the main goal of Bitcoin is the network ... so, litteraly = NO STOP SINCE 2009.

European Central Bank
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288
Merit: 1087



View Profile
December 09, 2016, 01:03:57 AM

Really? I'm sure the CEO said the opposite - that Bitcoin was dead and that nobody uses it.

http://www.newsbtc.com/2015/05/20/transferwise-ceo-bitcoin-is-a-friend/

their tune seems to change pretty regularly. like quite a few others they started off positive and then got huffy.
mymenace
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1061


Smile


View Profile
December 09, 2016, 03:20:43 AM

It's my opinion that we should have been well north of $1K many years ago, that's how much I think bitcoin is undervalued right now.

I fully agree with that. While it was over $1k 3 years ago, that was an artificial high.

Follow the exponential rise from a fifth of a penny in May 2010, through dime later that year, a dollar several months later, bubbling up past $39 in the Great Bubble only to settle in at over $2 later that year, then less than half a year later setting a new ATH at $266 during the second major bubble, only to drop to $50, and then reach $1200 during the 3rd big bubble.

The peaks of the 3 mega-bubbles all rose above the trend lines and were quickly brought back down to earth. Since then we've been substantially below the trend lines and are only recently recovering. The 2014-2015 prices in the $200s were as much an anomaly as the prices in the $5-$10 range were in 2012.

Of course Bitcoin is undervalued now. We have a lot of catching up to do.

agreed.  It is undervalued indeed but the value is showing so much maturity. Volatility seems a thing of the past: it will come back eventually but we saw much happening recently and price is still keeping up. To me that's good. I predicted 850 by the end of the year. We still have time


bitcoin may be undervalued for multiple reasons

future use of bitcoin
future developing markets we may not yet see
current fiat not viable in the future
mining revenue
limitation on the amount of bitcoin
the block chain and its inherent values

whats important to remember is what is driving the current market and where is the new bottom price going to stabilize at, previous bottom averaged at $240 USD



I agree with everything that you say, but regarding your last point, it seems that you are getting one step ahead of yourself, no?

We can have a working theory about the new resting point of the bottom, yet it seems somewhat depending on the intensity of the top too...

If we get some kind of mirroring of past performance, that may not be exactly scientific, then the top of the next bubble could be anywhere between $1,200 and $14,000, and I personally hypothesize that it would most reasonably land in the $3k to $5k territory, and if that happens, then the bottom would likely come resting back down in the $900 to $1,300 territory.  On the other hand, if the top ends up playing out in a different way than expected, then that kind of outcome would likely materially and significantly change the next step.   Accordingly, I think that there are too many steps in order to attempt to put any kind of range on the bottom without really knowing how the top plays out (which is also highly speculative, at this point).  



..."then the bottom would likely come resting back down in the $900 to $1,300 territory"...

a best guest is all anyone can do, a working theory

the more theory's allows for great opportunity for new investors to trade smarter

my belief is new investors want to come in but a lot would be misinformed and buying at the top would create a bubble.

a more steady growth and valuation of bitcoins real value will prove economic success in the use of bitcoin

rather than moon here we come $14000 bitcoin....

this is my belief and theory only and everyone should do their own research

great work all

JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 3892
Merit: 11154


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
December 09, 2016, 04:07:21 AM

It's my opinion that we should have been well north of $1K many years ago, that's how much I think bitcoin is undervalued right now.

I fully agree with that. While it was over $1k 3 years ago, that was an artificial high.

Follow the exponential rise from a fifth of a penny in May 2010, through dime later that year, a dollar several months later, bubbling up past $39 in the Great Bubble only to settle in at over $2 later that year, then less than half a year later setting a new ATH at $266 during the second major bubble, only to drop to $50, and then reach $1200 during the 3rd big bubble.

The peaks of the 3 mega-bubbles all rose above the trend lines and were quickly brought back down to earth. Since then we've been substantially below the trend lines and are only recently recovering. The 2014-2015 prices in the $200s were as much an anomaly as the prices in the $5-$10 range were in 2012.

Of course Bitcoin is undervalued now. We have a lot of catching up to do.

agreed.  It is undervalued indeed but the value is showing so much maturity. Volatility seems a thing of the past: it will come back eventually but we saw much happening recently and price is still keeping up. To me that's good. I predicted 850 by the end of the year. We still have time


bitcoin may be undervalued for multiple reasons

future use of bitcoin
future developing markets we may not yet see
current fiat not viable in the future
mining revenue
limitation on the amount of bitcoin
the block chain and its inherent values

whats important to remember is what is driving the current market and where is the new bottom price going to stabilize at, previous bottom averaged at $240 USD



I agree with everything that you say, but regarding your last point, it seems that you are getting one step ahead of yourself, no?

We can have a working theory about the new resting point of the bottom, yet it seems somewhat depending on the intensity of the top too...

If we get some kind of mirroring of past performance, that may not be exactly scientific, then the top of the next bubble could be anywhere between $1,200 and $14,000, and I personally hypothesize that it would most reasonably land in the $3k to $5k territory, and if that happens, then the bottom would likely come resting back down in the $900 to $1,300 territory.  On the other hand, if the top ends up playing out in a different way than expected, then that kind of outcome would likely materially and significantly change the next step.   Accordingly, I think that there are too many steps in order to attempt to put any kind of range on the bottom without really knowing how the top plays out (which is also highly speculative, at this point).  



..."then the bottom would likely come resting back down in the $900 to $1,300 territory"...

a best guest is all anyone can do, a working theory

the more theory's allows for great opportunity for new investors to trade smarter

my belief is new investors want to come in but a lot would be misinformed and buying at the top would create a bubble.

a more steady growth and valuation of bitcoins real value will prove economic success in the use of bitcoin

rather than moon here we come $14000 bitcoin....

this is my belief and theory only and everyone should do their own research

great work all




I mentioned $14,000, merely because it was recently asserted to be in the high range of targets for the next bubble that would peak in mid February 2017 (that was in the megabull article that was linked above by Lauda), and to me that $14,000 seems much too rosey of a peak picture (and even was in the upper most range of that prediction), yet if such a rosey picture were to materialize into reality, then I have a hard time imagining any BTC price dip that would return below $3k...

The more realistic, but still highly speculative scenario, would be peaking in the $3k to $5k arena and taking a bit more time (rather than  mid-February, maybe somewhere between May and July 2017) and correcting at some point into the $900 to $1,300 arena, but what the fuck do I know?
Pages: « 1 ... 15958 15959 15960 15961 15962 15963 15964 15965 15966 15967 15968 15969 15970 15971 15972 15973 15974 15975 15976 15977 15978 15979 15980 15981 15982 15983 15984 15985 15986 15987 15988 15989 15990 15991 15992 15993 15994 15995 15996 15997 15998 15999 16000 16001 16002 16003 16004 16005 16006 16007 [16008] 16009 16010 16011 16012 16013 16014 16015 16016 16017 16018 16019 16020 16021 16022 16023 16024 16025 16026 16027 16028 16029 16030 16031 16032 16033 16034 16035 16036 16037 16038 16039 16040 16041 16042 16043 16044 16045 16046 16047 16048 16049 16050 16051 16052 16053 16054 16055 16056 16057 16058 ... 33909 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!