Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[xhomerx10]

Yeah, I saw that too. Also the tulip mania only lasted for 3 years, and we all know that tulips are beautiful but otherwise worthless and plentiful. How that mania ever manifested in the first place is beyond me.

The most expensive bulbs were infected with a virus which retarded propagation, and I think prevented it after several generations. Despite the limited supply, storing value in organic matter that decays doesn't seem very smart.

 I don't know.  It certainly wouldn't be good for storing wealth but it seems like an organic version of Freicoin.  I imagine it would appeal to those who complain about the energy requirements of cryptocurrencies and who might therefore be open to sustainable alternatives.

[r0ach]

In simple terms, why you should hope cryptocurrency dies and gold and silver defeats them:

All cryptocurrencies are inherently rent seeking usury systems and a pseudo form of debt based currency if you will. The PoW chain does not just magically stay up on it's own, it requires a constant upkeep to exist at all (rent). A peer to peer physical gold or silver transaction can be done with no overhead cost; they're the equivalent of an off-chain transaction with no middleman or monopoly man gouging you with usury fees.  

Cryptocurrency is completely different.  Even if you attempt to do off-chain transactions via something like lightning network, or even in-person transactions with physical bitcoin bearer bonds, the transactions ALWAYS have to be settled on-chain eventually, so you are NEVER escaping the rent seeking usury system.  Since the blockchain is highly scaling constrained, it's like condeming yourself to extreme usury in the end game.  Bitcoin PoW is designed to centralize and the cartels running the mining operations will either be taken over by TPTB who already run the current system, or will just be a recreation of them in practice.

The further you abstract money away from barter, the larger a scam it is.  Only physical commodity based currencies are sound money that remove middlemen while allowing you to escape the debt based, rent seeking usury system.

[oblox]

In simple terms, why you should hope cryptocurrency dies and gold and silver defeats them:

All cryptocurrencies are inherently rent seeking usury systems and a pseudo form of debt based currency if you will. The PoW chain does not just magically stay up on it's own, it requires a constant upkeep to exist at all (rent). A peer to peer physical gold or silver transaction can be done with no overhead cost; they're the equivalent of an off-chain transaction with no landlord or monopoly man gouging you with usury fees. 

Cryptocurrency is completely different.  Even if you attempt to do off-chain transactions via something like lightning network, or even in-person transactions with physical bitcoin bearer bonds, the transactions ALWAYS have to be settled on-chain eventually, so you are NEVER escaping the rent seeking usury system.  Since the blockchain is highly scaling constrained, it's like condeming yourself to extreme usury in the end game.  Bitcoin PoW is designed to centralize and the cartels running the mining operations will either be taken over by TPTB who already run the current system, or will just be a recreation of them in practice.

The further you abstract money away from barter, the larger a scam it is.  Only physical commodity based currencies are sound money while also being the only thing that allows you to escape the debt based, rent seeking usury system.

You lost on your journey to ZH?

[r0ach]

snip

You lost on your journey to ZH?

There is so much fallacy to his argument, not sure where to begin. Try exchanging gold for anything without some usery fee.

There is no fee.  You're talking about an arb fee for exchanging between a debt based currency system where the USD is unit of account to a different system.  If metals are the unit of account, there is no arb fee and no debt based currency or usury fees either.  If you transfer into bitcoin, you're back into a debt based usury system once again.  Bitcoin does NOT remove the middleman, only physical commodity based currencies like metals do.

[sirazimuth]

same old ..same old...bla bla bla

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Torque]

Bitcoin does NOT remove the middleman, only physical commodity based currencies like metals do.

r0ach, you're kinda insulting everyone's intelligence here. You know darn well that you cannot transact among hundreds of thousands, millions of employees, employers, goods producers, suppliers, service providers, merchants, shippers, corporations, nations, etc. without a middleman or middle-service/network of some kind. At the speed/throughput needed for the world's current daily transactions (50-100k/second), peer-to-peer / face-to-face metals transactions would be impossible and unworkable.

Metals are great for wealth preservation and face-to-face snail trade, and some industry usage, but nothing more. Or a fall back SHTF face-to-face barter system if the world goes to complete hell. Even in that scenario, the world would eventually rebuild a new world currency (perhaps backed by metals? who knows) but I'm pretty sure that it would be digital moving forward.

[r0ach]

Bitcoin does NOT remove the middleman, only physical commodity based currencies like metals do.

r0ach, you're kinda insulting everyone's intelligence here. You know darn well that you cannot transact among hundreds of thousands, millions of employees, employers, goods producers, suppliers, service providers, merchants, shippers, corporations, nations, etc. without a middleman or middle-service. At the speed/throughput needed for the world's current daily transactions (50-100k/second), peer-to-peer / face-to-face metals transactions would be impossible and unworkable.

Metals are great for wealth preservation and face-to-face snail barter, and some industry usage, but nothing more.

I will use the same argument bitcoin core uses about block size.  You can create a centralized system on top of a decentralized one, but not vice versa.  Using physical metals as the base unit of account and settlement (Exter's Pyramid) allows you to remove all middlemen and if you would like some other type of convenience, you can then build a centralized system on top of it.  Using bitcoin as the base of unit of account or settlement gives you middlemen right out of the gate already, so it's completely useless as a form of settlement.

[Icygreen]

Personally I prefer Bitcoin due to the fact I can travel with it and not be questioned by customs when I cross boarders. (I travel quite a lot)  Try taking gold bars through customs x-ray and you'll likely have them confiscated. Bitcoin circumnavigates that BS.   I suspect gold shops in Asia will be the first ones to start exchanging XBT.
No doubt gold and silver have their place, just saying, you failed to note the areas where Bitcoin is superior and the reason it exists in the first place.

[Torque]

Using physical metals as the base unit of account and settlement (Exter's Pyramid) allows you to remove all middlemen and if you would like some other type of convenience, you can then build a centralized system on top of it.

So how would build a centralized or decentralized system on top of metal without an enormous amount of counter-party risk? How would you guarantee who held what, for whom, and how much? Goldmoney.com is currently already doing it, but you have to fully trust that they secure your metal and will deliver it in full on demand. And that it will never get seized. HUGE counter-party risk.

[infofront]

Using physical metals as the base unit of account and settlement (Exter's Pyramid) allows you to remove all middlemen and if you would like some other type of convenience, you can then build a centralized system on top of it.

So how would build a centralized or decentralized system on top of metal without an enormous amount of counter-party risk? How would you guarantee who held what, for whom, and how much? Goldmoney.com is currently already doing it, but you have to fully trust that they secure your metal and will deliver it in full on demand. And that it will never get seized. HUGE counter-party risk.

Gold backed, nation state issued currency.
Because certainly there was no usury going on when the USD was backed by gold. /s

[r0ach]

Using physical metals as the base unit of account and settlement (Exter's Pyramid) allows you to remove all middlemen and if you would like some other type of convenience, you can then build a centralized system on top of it.

So how would build a centralized system on top of metal without an enormous amount of counter-party risk? How would you guarantee who held what? Goldmoney.com is currently already doing it, but you have to fully trust that they secure your metal and will deliver it in full on demand. HUGE counter-party risk.

There is no difference whatsoever in practice between metals and bitcoin in that case.  For instance, for bitcoin to have any market penetration in the upper middle class of the world, you would need around 8 MB blocks, then on-chain transactions would still only be economical for something like transactions of $10k in value.  This means you would have, say $100k in savings and transfer $10k at a time onto a centralized BTC debit card or something.  With metals you would do the exact same thing, move small amounts at a time onto a more centralized system if you need the convenience.  

Do you see now why bitcoin doesn't actually solve any problem whatsoever? lol. It just makes the base settlement layer of your system less sound than precious metals and introduces middlemen where middlemen shouldn't exist. This is why legacy banking shills like Larry Summers and Ben Bernanke support bitcoin, because it allows them to insert themselves as middlemen where you should be immune to them.

[Torque]

This means you would have, say $100k in savings and transfer $10k at a time onto a centralized BTC debit card or something.  With metals, you would do the exact same thing, move small amounts at a time onto a more centralized system if you need the convenience.  

You could not do this and have this system exist without fees to transact. Not possible.

[r0ach]

This means you would have, say $100k in savings and transfer $10k at a time onto a centralized BTC debit card or something.  With metals, you would do the exact same thing, move small amounts at a time onto a more centralized system if you need the convenience.  

You could not do this and have this system exist without fees to transact. Not possible.

The point is you are not REQUIRED to expose yourself to any 3rd party middlemen using metals as a settlement layer like in bitcoin (the miners who demand rent).  The energy input >0 required at all times for bitcoin to exist at all makes it a debt based system in practice.  Metals are not a rent seeking vortex, they exist with no energy input; they're not a debt based system.  You cannot use a debt based system as the base settlement layer.  It's completely absurd to even suggest it.

[bones261]

This means you would have, say $100k in savings and transfer $10k at a time onto a centralized BTC debit card or something.  With metals, you would do the exact same thing, move small amounts at a time onto a more centralized system if you need the convenience.  

You could not do this and have this system exist without fees to transact. Not possible.

The point is you are not REQUIRED to expose yourself to any 3rd party middlemen using metals as a settlement layer like in bitcoin (the miners who demand rent).  The energy input >0 required at all times for bitcoin to exist at all makes it a debt based system in practice.  Metals are not a rent seeking vortex; they exist with no energy input; they're not a debt based system.  You cannot use a debt based system as the base settlement layer.  It's completely absurd to even suggest it.

So I suppose everyone should then become an expert in examining coins and bullion, to make sure they are not getting counterfeits or debased metals. In the old days, that was what the money changers used to do. They weren't middlemen nor charged usurious fees at all.

[Torque]

Yeah, not to mention that r0ach is only right about metal being non-debt based while it's sitting still.

But just try to move that metal as payment anywhere but to a bubba sitting right next to you, and transaction fees will be required through third party middlemen or services.

And if you don't actually move it for payment (i.e., don't take possession), you introduce counter-party risk and rehypothecation.

[bones261]

Yeah, not to mention that r0ach is only right about metal being non-debt based while it's sitting still.

But just try to move that metal as payment anywhere but to a bubba sitting right next to you, and transaction fees will be required.

And if you don't move it for payment (don't take possession), you introduce counter-party risk and re-hypothecation.

I suppose they could make a machine that checks out the coins/bullion for you. However, I am sure the makers of such machines will charge a pretty penny for said machine or tack on a small "fee" to rent for the use.

[r0ach]

I suppose they could make a machine that checks out the coins/bullion for you. However, I am sure the makers of such machines will charge a pretty penny for said machine or tack on a small "fee" to rent for the use.

They already exist.  You can also use free android phone apps and a ping test where the microphone can spot fake coins by resonance of the ping.  Hell, I can tell the difference between real or fake with my ear with ease.
There are also things like the specific gravity test.  It actually seems far easier to spot fake silver than fake gold because tungsten is EXTREMELY close to gold in the specific gravity test, while nothing to my knowledge is for silver, plus silver has several other unique traits gold doesn't.

See again with the fallacy...."they(metals) exist with no energy input" yes they exist on Earth but in order to retrieve them it costs (guess what?) MONEY!!ENERGY!!!CALORIES!!!

They are not debt based instruments because they require no rent or energy input greater >0 to exist at all while bitcoin is a debt based instrument.

[Elwar]

Hey gang. I have no life and have run out of things to do in my mom's basement.

Does anyone know of a good gold speculation forum I can go to and talk about bitcoin all day? The only reason I would do it is that I have no life. I have no interest at all in gold but I think they would appreciate me talking about bitcoin in a place where they go to discuss gold.

Any help would be appreciated.

[r0ach]

Hey gang. I have no life and have run out of things to do in my mom's basement.

Does anyone know of a good gold speculation forum I can go to and talk about bitcoin all day? The only reason I would do it is that I have no life. I have no interest at all in gold but I think they would appreciate me talking about bitcoin in a place where they go to discuss gold.

Any help would be appreciated.

http://www.zerohedge.com/

The Winklevoss are still mad at the jews and Larry Summers after facebook.  We could convince them to dump and destroy bitcoin while using the money to buy silver at the same time.  This would implode the bitcoin debt based usury system Larry Summers is trying to hoist on people, while also imploding banker's metals manipulation and sending silver to $100+ at the same time.  Profit while destroying your enemies in the process.  Win win.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Hey gang. I have no life and have run out of things to do in my mom's basement.

Does anyone know of a good gold speculation forum I can go to and talk about bitcoin all day? The only reason I would do it is that I have no life. I have no interest at all in gold but I think they would appreciate me talking about bitcoin in a place where they go to discuss gold.

Any help would be appreciated.

http://www.voy.com/64855/ ... funny things is they can't get enough about bitcoin on the thinking gold forums ... must really grate on roach that hehehe  

btw his debt-base doodoo is just some made up shit FUD that he likes to throw around recently, next week it'll be some more bitcoin BS FUDstering. On the whole roach is reflective of the extremely slow onboarding of the slower goldbugs. You can see the development of their thought processes as they go through all the old arguments and throw FUD up every time they think they've found the "flaw" in bitcoin ... it seems to good to be true to them.

But it isn't, it's just better than gold but not perfect. Perfect money probably only exists as an abstract concept, like Euclidian geometry. Useful as a concept for simplified analysis but will never exist in the real world. Even so, bitcoin is demonstrably better as a monetary instrument than gold on an overall analysis, each has it's own strengths and weaknesses but on balance bitcoin looks superior for the computer age. The free market for money will be the final arbiter of course.