Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Coinseeker]

...where as Bitcoin is in violation of the laws of nearly every country.  ...

No way. You are spreading FUD.
There is a distinction which needs to be understood. Bitcoin is not a class A drug, or a bottle of your own moonshine whiskey. It is not in violation of laws. Some people who use it might trade illegal items (such as moonshine), but this is true of any medium of exchange. It is what people do with a currency such as evade taxes which can break laws, not the currency itself.

And no, Dwolla is not illegal, where as Bitcoin is in violation of the laws of nearly every country.

Bitcoin is not in violation of any laws in most countries. That is, as far as I know, it is perfectly legal to own, buy and sell Bitcoins in most of the world. Many things that can be, and are being, done with Bitcoins ARE in violation of laws, though.

Im not a law expert so grant me that.  But in most developed countries, sending anonymous payments to anonymous users, tax free, and/or using an alternate currency within those borders is absolutely a violation of law.  It is in the US for sure.

When you trade one good for another, by law you owe taxes on that transaction.  Even if I were to trade say $100 TV for a $100 car stereo on Craigslist, by law, I'm supposed to pay taxes on that transaction.  That's called tax evasion here in the US, if you don't pay.  That's a crime, thus against the law.

I think we have all this grey area because of the advent of the internet which is why it is no coincidence the online tax bill is making it swiftly through congress.  They are setting up their chess pieces.

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[Rampion]

As the US goes, so goes the rest of the world.

The rest of western world. Which is not "the world".

Bitcoin is in violation of the laws of nearly every country.  Now I

That's utter BS. Can you show me how is bitcoin violating the laws of Italy, Russia, China, Sweden, Iran, Japan... Just to have a few examples. Be concrete, if you are so sure.

And yes, in the US you have some negative precedent (the e-gold thing, liberty dollar, etc.) - but again, the US is not "the rest of the world".

[Rampion]

And no, Dwolla is not illegal, where as Bitcoin is in violation of the laws of nearly every country.

Bitcoin is not in violation of any laws in most countries. That is, as far as I know, it is perfectly legal to own, buy and sell Bitcoins in most of the world. Many things that can be, and are being, done with Bitcoins ARE in violation of laws, though.

Im not a law expert so grant me that.  But in most developed countries, sending anonymous payments to anonymous users, tax free, and/or using an alternate currency within those borders is absolutely a violation of law.  It is in the US for sure.

So you really do not understand how BTC works.

BTC is "pseudoanonymous" (not anonymous). Additionally, all the transactions are public. Legitimate business transactions can be very easily tracked, much easier than with cash.

And BTW: cash has very similar properties to BTC - and if you operate only in cash you can also be "tax free". Which obviously does not means that cash is illegal.

[Coinseeker]

And no, Dwolla is not illegal, where as Bitcoin is in violation of the laws of nearly every country.

Bitcoin is not in violation of any laws in most countries. That is, as far as I know, it is perfectly legal to own, buy and sell Bitcoins in most of the world. Many things that can be, and are being, done with Bitcoins ARE in violation of laws, though.

Im not a law expert so grant me that.  But in most developed countries, sending anonymous payments to anonymous users, tax free, and/or using an alternate currency within those borders is absolutely a violation of law.  It is in the US for sure.

So you really do not understand how BTC works.

BTC is "pseudoanonymous" (not anonymous). Additionally, all the transactions are public. Legitimate business transactions can be very easily tracked, much easier than with cash.

And BTW: cash has very similar properties to BTC - and if you operate only in cash you can also be "tax free". Which obviously does not means that cash is illegal.

Put that way, that's a good point however that means you have to define BTC as an actual currency and using an alternate currency is against the law in the US.

[Stephen Gornick]

Im not a law expert so grant me that.  But in most developed countries, sending anonymous payments to anonymous users, tax free, and/or using an alternate currency within those borders is absolutely a violation of law.  It is in the US for sure.

FinCEN just provided guidance stating that Bitcoins can be used to pay for purchases from merchants.  

This is irregardless of the merchant remaining anonymous and/or the customer operating anonymously.

So, anonymous payments to anonymous users is most certainly not something FinCEN has indicated that it has any problem with.   Now, of course, if that transaction incurs a tax obligation, simply because it was paid using Bitcoins does not remove any obligations, so taxes would still be do.  But that doesn't make using Bitcoin illegal.

Care to clarify your statement?  

[Coinseeker]

As the US goes, so goes the rest of the world.

The rest of western world. Which is not "the world".

Bitcoin is in violation of the laws of nearly every country.  Now I

That's utter BS. Can you show me how is bitcoin violating the laws of Italy, Russia, China, Sweden, Iran, Japan... Just to have a few examples. Be concrete, if you are so sure.

And yes, in the US you have some negative precedent (the e-gold thing, liberty dollar, etc.) - but again, the US is not "the rest of the world".

This may very well have been overstated.  Just my understanding but certainly not fact as it relates to the countries listed.  Point taken.   

[Coinseeker]

Im not a law expert so grant me that.  But in most developed countries, sending anonymous payments to anonymous users, tax free, and/or using an alternate currency within those borders is absolutely a violation of law.  It is in the US for sure.

FinCEN just provided guidance stating that Bitcoins can be used to pay for purchases from merchants.  

This is irregardless of the merchant remaining anonymous and/or the customer operating anonymously.

So, anonymous payments to anonymous users is most certainly not something FinCEN has indicated that it has any problem with.   Now, of course, if that transaction incurs a tax obligation, simply because it was paid using Bitcoins does not remove any obligations, so taxes would still be do.  But that doesn't make using Bitcoin illegal.

Care to clarify your statement?  

If you're not paying taxes on those transactions, it's illegal.  That's cut and dry.  By US policy anyway.  I will confine my statements to the US for now.  Again, I think there is too much grey area and that's exactly why they are moving on this online tax bill.  Which only hits major retailers now but is just the platform to go after everyone else.

[solex]

Put that way, that's a good point however that means you have to define BTC as an actual currency and using an alternate currency is against the law in the US.

This article discusses the issue and it seems it is not illegal for US citizens to accept a payment in foreign currency (since 1977).
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/3582/are-there-any-countries-where-citizens-are-free-to-use-any-currency

[ChartBuddy]

[Coinseeker]

Put that way, that's a good point however that means you have to define BTC as an actual currency and using an alternate currency is against the law in the US.

This article discusses the issue and it seems it is not illegal for US citizens to accept a payment in foreign currency (since 1977).
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/3582/are-there-any-countries-where-citizens-are-free-to-use-any-currency

Coinage Act of 1965, Section 102 states: “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues.” Only United States currencies (including Federal Reserve Notes) are currently legal tender in the US.

Keyword being LEGAL tender.  Thanks for that BTW.

[samson]

Put that way, that's a good point however that means you have to define BTC as an actual currency and using an alternate currency is against the law in the US.

This article discusses the issue and it seems it is not illegal for US citizens to accept a payment in foreign currency (since 1977).
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/3582/are-there-any-countries-where-citizens-are-free-to-use-any-currency

Coinage Act of 1965, Section 102 states: “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues.” Only United States currencies (including Federal Reserve Notes) are currently legal tender in the US.

Keyword being LEGAL tender.  Thanks for that BTW.

Try and pay for your lunch with a $100 bill and see what happens.

[DougTanner]

Good morning! Hope you all grabbed some cheap coins yesterday 

[Coinseeker]

Put that way, that's a good point however that means you have to define BTC as an actual currency and using an alternate currency is against the law in the US.

This article discusses the issue and it seems it is not illegal for US citizens to accept a payment in foreign currency (since 1977).
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/3582/are-there-any-countries-where-citizens-are-free-to-use-any-currency

Coinage Act of 1965, Section 102 states: “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues.” Only United States currencies (including Federal Reserve Notes) are currently legal tender in the US.

Keyword being LEGAL tender.  Thanks for that BTW.

Try and pay for your lunch with a $100 bill and see what happens.

Um...they'll give me some food and hand me back the change.      What am I missing?

[d5000]

@Coinseeker: Bitcoin can be compared to the "currencies" of barter clubs. There are barter organizations in many countries, including nearly all western ones. Another "currencies" that are similar are flight miles. There is nothing illegal with that, many multi-million-dollar companies use them.

[samson]

Put that way, that's a good point however that means you have to define BTC as an actual currency and using an alternate currency is against the law in the US.

This article discusses the issue and it seems it is not illegal for US citizens to accept a payment in foreign currency (since 1977).
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/3582/are-there-any-countries-where-citizens-are-free-to-use-any-currency

Coinage Act of 1965, Section 102 states: “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues.” Only United States currencies (including Federal Reserve Notes) are currently legal tender in the US.

Keyword being LEGAL tender.  Thanks for that BTW.

Try and pay for your lunch with a $100 bill and see what happens.

Um...they'll give me some food and hand me back the change.      What am I missing?

You're missing all the signs that say no bills higher than $20 will be accepted.

[needmorecoins]

Not familiar with any laws (or how to read them lawyer speak) so might a dumb question...but does the USD being legal tender in the US mean that other currencies are illegal? Or the other currencies can still be be used but just not legally obliged to be accepted?

[Coinseeker]

@Coinseeker: Bitcoin can be compared to the "currencies" of barter clubs. There are barter organizations in many countries, including nearly all western ones. Another "currencies" that are similar are flight miles. There is nothing illegal with that, many multi-million-dollar companies use them.

I agree and that's where that grey area comes in.  But even flight miles are not the same as Bitcoin.  You can't exchange them for cash (to my knowledge) and are only available on products and services the airlines have paid for at discounted rates, to offer as incentives.  They pass these extra cost to their customers so really, it's just a brilliant marketing strategy and not an actual currency.  Bitcoin is a currency.  No question about it.

[solex]

Coinage Act of 1965, Section 102 states: “All coins and currencies of the United States (including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties, and dues.” Only United States currencies (including Federal Reserve Notes) are currently legal tender in the US.

Keyword being LEGAL tender.  Thanks for that BTW.

"An astute reader may note that legal tender only concerns the repayment of debt, taxes, duties, and dues."
Citizens are free to use any currency for an unofficial transaction.

Not familiar with any laws (or how to read them lawyer speak) so might a dumb question...but does the USD being legal tender in the US mean that other currencies are illegal? Or the other currencies can still be be used but just not legally obliged to be accepted?

That's your answer. Legal tender only matters where the government or judicial system is involved.
So you can't pay taxes in bitcoins. But you can pay your neighbor bitcoins for some vegetables.

[Coinseeker]

Not familiar with any laws (or how to read them lawyer speak) so might a dumb question...but does the USD being legal tender in the US mean that other currencies are illegal? Or the other currencies can still be be used but just not legally obliged to be accepted?

From my limited understanding as well (so nothing dumb about it, my friend) a business can not accept a foriegn currency.  It can only deal in US legal tender.  It's not illegal to possess them, but to spend them in the US, on US goods and services is a clear violation of US policy.

So by that thinking, and as one stated earlier, owning Bitcoins is not illegal.  Using them is or at least technically.

[MickeyT2008]

Bitcoin might be a currency but since it's only numbers in a computer and not a physical object can it even be said to exist?  Anyway, surely it wouldn't be a crime for someone in the US to pay someone else in Euros or Stirling if they were both happy about it.  If the US government start using a clause like that then it's obviously only because they're miffed about not getting to tax it, but they'd probably use some BS excuse like counter-terrorism, protecting kids, etc like they always do for things they don't like.

Besides which, contrary to popular opinion the US is not the whole planet