Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[mindrust]

Of course there is absolutely no investment that is 100% risk free, but real estate is "safe enough".

Real estate as an investment is ok if:

1. You own it outright, or are actively working to own it outright

2. It pays you back (e.g., renter or leaser income)

3. It has some appreciation

Otherwise, it definitely isn't an "asset" unless it meets those criteria. It is a liability. I cringe when I hear people talk about their home as an "asset", especially when it's not paid off and they have zero intention of ever selling it.

Real Estate sucks.

1) Taxes are way too high. They eat your income.
2) Maintenance costs are usually high unless its a condo. Which eats your income.
3) If it is a condo type of RE, you'll probably end up with a broke-ass tenant who'll delay payments or refuse to leave the house. Lawyers... Say good bye to your profits.
4) Your asset won't get hired away instantly unless you let it go cheaper than the market price and with everyday passing you'll lose money.

Tldr; Fuck real estate.

I didn't forget to tell you about the insurance costs. I intentionally skipped it because I didn't wanna ruin your dreams further. I am such a nice guy.

I'd rather buy gold than bricks/cement. And then there is bitcoin which makes gold redundant. A man only needs one house. Owning more than one is asking for trouble.

[1714873489]

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[1714873489]

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[Torque]

A home is an asset because it has the ROI of not having to spend in renting. I don't know about other countries, but here you can basically pay your home for what would otherwise be 20-25 years of renting. You would spend the same... but you would end up fully owning it instead of having nothing. I know in some countries (like US) mobility is some extreme that you can't attach to fixed location for more than a few years.... YMMV

In some cases that's true. But for most people in the U.S., they basically end up spending 1.5X to 2X as much for the cost of their house over the life of the loan than they would have spent on rent for that same period.

And most people rarely stay in their house more than 10 years. So every time they sell, they lose on cap gain taxes. Then they start the whole debt clock over again with a brand new 30 yr mortgage with fresh new interest. So effectively, they never end up owning anything.

[Raja_MBZ]

We crossed $9000 few minutes back... why no celebrations & Vegeta?

This seriously is pretty correct:

You all don't realize how powerful the Dragon Ball franchise is. They have been milking the "It's is over 9000!" thing for all it's worth. They had to rush to crash the market when it jumped to almost $20k pushing the price back down so they could repeatedly have the price go over 9000.

Some theorize that this is the sole purpose of the creation of Bitcoin.

[Torque]

Real Estate sucks.

1) Taxes are way too high. They eat your income.
2) Maintenance costs are usually high unless its a condo. Which eats your income.
3) If it is a condo type of RE, you'll probably end up with a broke-ass tenant who'll delay payments or refuse to leave the house. Lawyers... Say good bye to your profits.
4) Your asset won't get hired away instantly unless you let it go cheaper than the market price and with everyday passing you'll lose money.

Tldr; Fuck real estate.

I didn't forget to tell you about the insurance costs. I intentionally skipped it because I didn't wanna ruin your dreams further. I am such a nice guy.

Just curious, are you saying this from experience? Were you at one time a landlord?

[mindrust]

Just curious, are you saying this from experience? Were you at one time a landlord?

Not me, but my father. He dumped his position for good and never went back to that business.

This is 2018 folks.

You gotta be mobile. Everything changes so fast now. Buying a house and waiting for it to ROI in 20 years? Ain't no-one got time for this shit.

[Torque]

You gotta be mobile. Everything changes so fast now. Buying a house and waiting for it to ROI in 20 years? Ain't no-one got time for this shit.

If I was young and single and had to do it all over again, I'd either live out of an RV or mobile tiny home. Pay it off. Rent-to-own or buy the property it sat on.

Then once everything was all paid off, either sell the RV/tiny home for profit and build another house on the same property, or rent out / AirBnB the tiny home and build or buy another house somewhere else.

I would keep doing this until I had a completely paid off house on the property that I wanted to retire on.

[valkener]

Of course there is absolutely no investment that is 100% risk free, but real estate is "safe enough".

Real estate as an investment is ok if:

1. You own it outright, or are actively working to own it outright

2. It pays you back (e.g., renter or leaser income)

3. It has some appreciation

Otherwise, it definitely isn't an "asset" unless it meets those criteria. It is a liability. I cringe when I hear people talk about their home as an "asset", especially when it's not paid off and they have zero intention of ever selling it.

That's simply not true and depends highly on how much equity you have in the house. In fact, not living in the house and having to sell it makes you pay a lot more capital gains taxes compared to selling a house you're actually living in (or have lived within a certain amount of years). Of course it depends on the neighborhood and location, but generally Americans have a lot of their wealth stored in their home and that's not a bad thing. It's generally much safer to live in the house that you are paying off (the benefits are greater) but renting can also be great as long as you're able to find good renters, which can be very difficult. It's still an asset if you have paid off a decent amount and don't live in an undesirable location.

[oblox]

A home is an asset because it has the ROI of not having to spend in renting. I don't know about other countries, but here you can basically pay your home for what would otherwise be 20-25 years of renting. You would spend the same... but you would end up fully owning it instead of having nothing. I know in some countries (like US) mobility is some extreme that you can't attach to fixed location for more than a few years.... YMMV

In some cases that's true. But for most people in the U.S., they basically end up spending 1.5X to 2X as much for the cost of their house over the life of the loan than they would have spent on rent for that same period.

And most people rarely stay in their house more than 10 years. So every time they sell, they lose on cap gain taxes. Then they start the whole debt clock over again with a brand new 30 yr mortgage with fresh new interest. So effectively, they never end up owning anything.

In the US, cap gains on primary residence are exempt up to $250k ($500k for married) as long as you have lived in the house two of the last five years.

[jojo69]

When you have to pay property taxes can you ever really say "You own it outright"?

indeed

the lack of allodial title is one of the clearest indications of our serfdom

[bitserve]

Well, as I said YMMV, but many years ago when I was almost a "child" I started buying my home with a mortgage. Now I have it FULLY paid and never had to pay more than what a rent would have cost me. That is not counting appreciating which would currently mean an additional 2x 3x of the purchase price.

Interests? Around 1% which would amount in total much less than what I were able to deduct in tax payments (like 5% annually).

Couldn't be happier about that as an investment. Well, except for Bitcoin. Yeah, that has been better for sure and in a shorter investment timeframe.

P.S.: YMMV, again. #DYOR

[Torque]

Just so everyone is clear, I'm not arguing against owning a house. I'm actually pro-home ownership. Just pay it off as fast as possible.

I'm merely saying that it's not an "asset" if a) you still have debt owed on it w/ interest, b) it doesn't pay you back, and c) you never plan to sell it. It is a liability, not an asset.

And if you sell a house every 5-10 years just to buy a new one w/ a new 30 yr mortgage. Not an asset. And you'll never own anything that way. Just "leasing" indefinitely.

[greensheep]

Happy May Day!!!



Workers Of The World Unite!

Happy May Day.

Today I lit a candle in front of my Karl Marx statue and repeated the planks of the Communist Manifesto...again.

So many socialist holidays...so few candles...

Too many red candles on red socialist day

[Raja_MBZ]

Your real-estate discussion is ruining bitcoin. Stop it! This is a wall-observer thread, not a walls-creating-a-home thread!

[Torque]

Your real-estate discussion is ruining bitcoin. Stop it! This is a wall-observer thread, not a walls-creating-a-home thread!

Didn't you get the memo? Bitcoin is boring as shit right now.

[UnDerDoG81]

Somebody is having fun dumping his coins. He will regret 

[bitserve]

Your real-estate discussion is ruining bitcoin. Stop it! This is a wall-observer thread, not a walls-creating-a-home thread!

Dude, real estate is totally appropiate as Bitcoin discussion.

What do you want to use your amazing profits for in the future?

A lambo? *THAT* is a totally NON-asset.

*THIS* is what I want to be able to build for my retirement when the time comes (I already own the land in the perfect location... but won't start developing until I am fully covered for life):



Or this, with a more modest budget:

[Torque]

The MSM is a contrarian indicator, only ever bullish when the price is going to drop.

So I feel like all the pro-Bitcoin news I've read over the last week or so tells me another dump is coming.

I'm guessing we'll retest the $8K level again soon^TM.

[gentlemand]

Dude, real estate is totally appropiate as Bitcoin discussion.

I would only consider it as a place for myself to live in. As any type of investment it's way too much ball ache. You have to install tenants who grow pot, defecate in the gutters, spurt semen all over the windows, ovulate in the hot water tank, leave their hymen and placentas to rot in the air vents.

Fuck that.

If I had to do something with property I'd get a bunch of paddocks. There's no shortage of stupid people where I'm at who'll pay sometimes 50% or more of a house rental for a field to park their horse in. And you can't eat a human tenant if they don't cough up.

[Toxic2040]

https://twitter.com/stlouisfed/status/990689717384613894

https://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/2018/02/13/the-case-for-central-bank-electronic-money-and-the-non-case-for-central-bank-cryptocurrencies?&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SM&utm_term=other&utm_content=pub&utm_campaign=3599

Conclusion

The distinguishing characteristic of cryptocurrencies is the decentralized nature of transaction handling, which enables users to remain anonymous and allows for permissionless access. These key characteristics are a red flag for central banks, and we predict that no reputable central bank would issue a decentralized virtual currency where users can remain anonymous. The reputational risk would simply be too high. Rather, central banks could issue central bank electronic money. This money would be tightly controlled by them, and users would be subject to standard KYC ("know your customer") and AML ("anti-money laundering") procedures.

Some central banks supposedly are evaluating the issuance of a central bank cryptocurrency. However, a closer look at these projects reveals that these are not cryptocurrencies according to our definition in Figure 1. The projects usually are highly centralized.

In general, we don't think that a central bank should be in the business to satisfy the demand for anonymous payments. We believe that such a demand can and will be perfectly satisfied by the private sector, in particular through cryptocurrencies. History and current political reality show that, on the one hand, governments can be bad actors and, on the other hand, some citizens can be bad actors. The former justifies an anonymous currency to protect citizens from bad governments, while the later calls for transparency of all payments. The reality is in between, and for that reason we welcome anonymous cryptocurrencies but also disagree with the view that the government should provide one.

Its the last paragraph that really caught my attention.

[jojo69]

... you can't eat a human tenant if they don't cough up.

of course you can

please, this dystopia is no place to be squeamish