Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Peter R]

He is speaking about NXT and its future developments.

I don't trust NXT at all!

[kkaspar]

Look kkaspar is a bit like Jorge in the sense that he/she is trying incredibly hard to find good reasons why bitcoin can't and will not work.

I think it speaks for itself that both keep posting here.
If they truly didn't think bitcoin could succeed they'd have left and done something else.

They are either trolling or secretly want to get in.
It is the same as me posting in a my little pony forum how stupid the franchise is.

No, actually I'm trying to find the opposite. Only without success.
Wouldn't it just be great if bitcoin will just expand and expand, and the coins will just get more expensive and expensive, with me getting richer and richer, and all while doing absolutely no work? It would be awesome! Like winning the lottery!
Sadly in my experience, the world doesn't work like that.

[bassclef]

Look kkaspar is a bit like Jorge in the sense that he/she is trying incredibly hard to find good reasons why bitcoin can't and will not work.

I think it speaks for itself that both keep posting here.
If they truly didn't think bitcoin could succeed they'd have left and done something else.

They are either trolling or secretly want to get in.
It is the same as me posting in a my little pony forum how stupid the franchise is.

No, actually I'm trying to find the opposite. Only without success.
Wouldn't it just be great if bitcoin will just expand and expand, and the coins will just get more expensive and expensive, with me getting richer and richer, and all while doing absolutely no work? It would be awesome! Like winning the lottery!
Sadly in my experience, the world doesn't work like that.

No it doesn't. It's been a rocky road and it will likely only get rockier. However distributed consensus networks (in which currency is one application) are a revolutionary technology, you cannot deny this or else you wouldn't be wasting your time here.

[ShroomsKit_Disgrace]

He is speaking about NXT and its future developments.

I don't trust NXT at all!

As far as I know, it is the unique crypto to implement the "Turing Completeness" method:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=463731.0

[kkaspar]

No it doesn't. It's been a rocky road and it will likely only get rockier. However distributed consensus networks (in which currency is one application) are is a revolutionary technology, you cannot deny this or else you wouldn't be wasting your time here.

I agree with your every word. That's exactly why I'm here! I really believe in the future of transparent monetary systems that are based on open source development and supported by the internet. Bitcoin is just too flawed and simplistic to fill the shoes of that idea. There has to be something a lot more complex to be considered as an serious currency that can offer price stability.
Some say that bitcoin can develop into something more complex, but I just can't see that. There are too many flaws in the very core that won't be changed. A total remake is a more probable option to me.

[jojo69]

Ok then, when you'll take away all the centralized exchanges and leave localbitcoins to handle exchange, then what do you think will be the volume of trade and the price of bitcoin? Do you really think that any serious investor will buy their coins from craigslist?
Without an centralized exchange system, then bitcoin will be values as much as bitcoin was valued when it didn't have a centralized exchange system.

wow

the fail is strong in this one

[bassclef]

No it doesn't. It's been a rocky road and it will likely only get rockier. However distributed consensus networks (in which currency is one application) are is a revolutionary technology, you cannot deny this or else you wouldn't be wasting your time here.

I agree with your every word. That's exactly why I'm here! I really believe in the future of transparent monetary systems that are based on open source development and supported by the internet. Bitcoin is just too flawed and simplistic to fill the shoes of that idea. There has to be something a lot more complex to be considered as an serious currency that can offer price stability.
Some say that bitcoin can develop into something more complex, but I just can't see that. There are too many flaws in the very core that won't be changed. A total remake is a more probable option to me.

Well enjoy the ride then I'm sure we will be the first to know if something better comes along.

[raid_n]

Look kkaspar is a bit like Jorge in the sense that he/she is trying incredibly hard to find good reasons why bitcoin can't and will not work.

I think it speaks for itself that both keep posting here.
If they truly didn't think bitcoin could succeed they'd have left and done something else.

They are either trolling or secretly want to get in.
It is the same as me posting in a my little pony forum how stupid the franchise is.

No, actually I'm trying to find the opposite. Only without success.
Wouldn't it just be great if bitcoin will just expand and expand, and the coins will just get more expensive and expensive, with me getting richer and richer, and all while doing absolutely no work? It would be awesome! Like winning the lottery!
Sadly in my experience, the world doesn't work like that.

That is the dumbest answer I've seen from you yet.

As much as it annoys me that you keep introducing new reasons of why bitcoin is not for you whenever an argument shows that it is not a black and white answer and bitcoin could have merit I do value that this discussion is taking place with solid arguments.

The potential for getting rich is a reflection of the high risks you are actually pointing out.
Bitcoin could be replaced by some other crypto currency.
All the points you are making are the reasons why bitcoins current value is what it is and why it might be magnitudes more once they are resolved.
Just like you many many people are saying the risk is too high.

[isov]

Look kkaspar is a bit like Jorge in the sense that he/she is trying incredibly hard to find good reasons why bitcoin can't and will not work.

I think it speaks for itself that both keep posting here.
If they truly didn't think bitcoin could succeed they'd have left and done something else.

They are either trolling or secretly want to get in.
It is the same as me posting in a my little pony forum how stupid the franchise is.

No, actually I'm trying to find the opposite. Only without success.
Wouldn't it just be great if bitcoin will just expand and expand, and the coins will just get more expensive and expensive, with me getting richer and richer, and all while doing absolutely no work? It would be awesome! Like winning the lottery!
Sadly in my experience, the world doesn't work like that.

Surely it's possible that it is not bitcoin itself that is going to be the HUGE thing. but if some other cryptocurrency should come in existence and starts to look better and better it's going to be easy to jump from bitcoin to that one. And still get the huge profits because nothing can come to existence with possibilities to compete with bitcoin and not being so that it has to gain its value little by little. Problem solved and everyones still going to be rich if they have the insight to do this possibly upcoming jump from btc to this other that in my mind doesn't exist yet. Because I think thats the case with almost everyone of us in here, I don't believe that too many of us have to insist that is HAS TO BE bitcoin that is the end game, we just jump to this better one when it seems necessary. Because if we wouldn't then that would really be cultist behaviour in my opinion. But I think we can agree that cryptocurrencies are here NOW and they are not going away. Lots of money coming to those guys who know what is the best place to be holding a position. ATM I think bitcoin is the thing. Hope someone agrees with me.  

[yrtrnc]

No, I'm defending the fact that a commodity does not need a "market system" to have an exchange rate.

"Market system" being what I am assuming you mean as a group of centralized exchanges where we can see in real time the most recent trades between one commodity and another.

Ok then, when you'll take away all the centralized exchanges and leave localbitcoins to handle exchange, then what do you think will be the volume of trade and the price of bitcoin? Do you really think that any serious investor will buy their coins from craigslist?
Without an centralized exchange system, then bitcoin will be values as much as bitcoin was valued when it didn't have a centralized exchange system.

You probably shouldn't underestimate your lack of imagination that is limiting the extent and coherence of your arguments.

Let's just say that you are not the type of intellect that I would rate to be inventing (or even merely imagining) anything like a P2P internet crypto-currency any time soon, or any other world changing technology that humanity can benefit from, like a P2P exchange for P2P currencies.

For example, check this out. This will widen your imagination
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=462236.0

[kkaspar]

That is the dumbest answer I've seen from you yet.

As much as it annoys me that you keep introducing new reasons of why bitcoin is not for you whenever an argument shows that it is not a black and white answer and bitcoin could have merit I do value that this discussion is taking place with solid arguments.

The potential for getting rich is a reflection of the high risks you are actually pointing out.
Bitcoin could be replaced by some other crypto currency.
All the points you are making are the reasons why bitcoins current value is what it is and why it might be magnitudes more once they are resolved.
Just like you many many people are saying the risk is too high.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I have never said that bitcoin is not for me. I have earned quite a buck with investing in bitcoin. The disagreement comes where I don't see that bitcoin has a very long future infront of it. I see about a year or maybe two.
And I have been telling if the problems with the current market threat is resolved, then the price can go up.

It seems that if you don't agree with the constant shouts of "now this is the bottom and it will go up!" or arguments like "bitcoin will be used for decades to come!" then people here will actually start to demonize you, with acting like you are saying things that you have never actually said.

[TERA]

Ok then, when you'll take away all the centralized exchanges and leave localbitcoins to handle exchange, then what do you think will be the volume of trade and the price of bitcoin? Do you really think that any serious investor will buy their coins from craigslist?
Without an centralized exchange system, then bitcoin will be values as much as bitcoin was valued when it didn't have a centralized exchange system.

wow

the fail is strong in this one

Actually the only exchange we need to take down is Bitstamp and then everything is fucked. It would be much MUCH worse than mtgox, even if mtgox was still running.

[fonzie]

Some of you should consider selling, this upcoming shitstorm about Mt.Gox is goin to be evil and might last a few weeks/months.
It is not at all comparable to Silkroad.

[TERA]

Some of you should consider selling, this upcoming shitstorm about Mt.Gox is goin to be evil and might last a few weeks/months.
It is not at all comparable to Silkroad.

Looks like some whales on stamp would LOVE a shitstorm and have set nets for it.



There are only a handful of things I look at to determine if were bottom: the volume, the technicals, the orderbooks, and the log trendline. I don't care about silly gox and speculating about news events.

[fonzie]

Some of you should consider selling, this upcoming shitstorm about Mt.Gox is goin to be evil and might last a few weeks/months.
It is not at all comparable to Silkroad.

Looks like some whales on stamp would LOVE a shitstorm and have set nets for it.

We have seen huge bid depth on Gox before.....

It´s probably just whales trying to calm everyone down, tryin to protect their investment. I wouldn´t bet on it that all buy walls are real.

[Adrian-x]

Anyone notice the wall we call hashrate it's still going exponential.
http://bitcoin.sipa.be/

[kkaspar]

Surely it's possible that it is not bitcoin itself that is going to be the HUGE thing. but if some other cryptocurrency should come in existence and starts to look better and better it's going to be easy to jump from bitcoin to that one. And still get the huge profits because nothing can come to existence with possibilities to compete with bitcoin and not being so that it has to gain its value little by little. Problem solved and everyones still going to be rich if they have the insight to do this possibly upcoming jump from btc to this other that in my mind doesn't exist yet. Because I think thats the case with almost everyone of us in here, I don't believe that too many of us have to insist that is HAS TO BE bitcoin that is the end game, we just jump to this better one when it seems necessary. Because if we wouldn't then that would really be cultist behaviour in my opinion. But I think we can agree that cryptocurrencies are here NOW and they are not going away. Lots of money coming to those guys who know what is the best place to be holding a position. ATM I think bitcoin is the thing. Hope someone agrees with me.  

I agree that it will be easy to jump coins. The only thing is that most of the people who are showing strong cult behavior won't notice the opportunity and they will be forever hodling. I think that bitcoin will forever hold some value for it's historical importance. It just won't ever become an serious financial tool.
Most of the people here seem to think that bitcoin is the end game. I will always fall under a series of furious attacks when I say that bitcoin will probably only have couple of years max left in it. Just look how this discussion started and how so many people felt a sudden urge to direct their posts towards me.

[raid_n]

That is the dumbest answer I've seen from you yet.

As much as it annoys me that you keep introducing new reasons of why bitcoin is not for you whenever an argument shows that it is not a black and white answer and bitcoin could have merit I do value that this discussion is taking place with solid arguments.

The potential for getting rich is a reflection of the high risks you are actually pointing out.
Bitcoin could be replaced by some other crypto currency.
All the points you are making are the reasons why bitcoins current value is what it is and why it might be magnitudes more once they are resolved.
Just like you many many people are saying the risk is too high.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I have never said that bitcoin is not for me. I have earned quite a buck with investing in bitcoin. The disagreement comes where I don't see that bitcoin has a very long future infront of it. I see about a year or maybe two.
And I have been telling if the problems with the current market threat is resolved, then the price can go up.

It seems that if you don't agree with the constant shouts of "now this is the bottom and it will go up!" or arguments like "bitcoin will be used for decades to come!" then people here will actually start to demonize you, with acting like you are saying things that you have never actually said.

There is no reason to get defensive here.
So you do not believe that the protocol can last much longer than maybe a few years?
That's great but I feel that half of your arguments have nothing to do with that sentiment.

And to clarify things on the protocol level.
Bitcoin does something elegant that Lamport already proposed in 84 when talking about the consensus problem.
Cryptographically signed messages make solving the Byzantine generals problem easier because attackers can't forge the general's message
This is the basic building block for bitcoin.
Other consensus variants are better for other tasks (Like using a Total order multicast for a replicated state machine).
Sticking everything into one protocol makes absolutely no sense.
You bloat the system, the code gets messy and ultimately this can lead to major problems in the long run.

A slim protocol is a good thing in this respect. It is easier to maintain and better to understand

[TERA]

Some of you should consider selling, this upcoming shitstorm about Mt.Gox is goin to be evil and might last a few weeks/months.
It is not at all comparable to Silkroad.

Looks like some whales on stamp would LOVE a shitstorm and have set nets for it.

We have seen huge bid depth on Gox before.....

It´s probably just whales trying to calm everyone down, tryin to protect their investment. I wouldn´t bet on it that all buy walls are real.

I would bet that for every buy wall there, there are 3 dark orders also.

[polyclef]

Turing completeness is a horrible idea for scripting in a cryptocurrency. Just look at the past couple of decades of vulnerabilities in java, javascript, flash, etc, etc.  Turing complete money will drain your wallet on it's own.

The only thing I can see stopping it is another cryptocurrency which accomplishes everything that Bitcoin does and more, only with a codebase so different that Bitcoin can not adopt these added desirable features.

May I ask how important you feel Turing completeness is in the scripting language?

I'm sorry, I do not have the technical knowledge to answer this question. Give me a few days and I may be able to give you an answer.