Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[JorgeStolfi]

Oh yeah - Brazilians love there tax regime - it's so efficient!
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2014/04/22/study-finds-brazils-state-to-be-tax-guzzling-inefficient/

Just like in the US, the opposition party loves to blast the current government for overtaxing and wasting money.  Only to do even worse when they get to power.   

When they were in power, those neocons who set up the "impostômetro" created a huge public debt by borrowing money at 40% interest per year or more.  Even today, 12 years after they lost the national government, more than half of all the tax revenue goes to pay interest on that debt, which only keeps growing.  (THAT is real armed robbery, because if the government tried to reject that debt, even with popular support, it would probably be toppled in short time.)  Still, "taxing Dilma" stands a good chance of winning a second term, with support not only from the lower- and middle-class "parasites" but from business people in general.

[dreamspark]

Anybody knows anxbtc exchange? They seem to have popped from nowhere and are now number 2 for volume.

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=24h

Never heard of it but its in Hong Kong and lists in pounds for me, does it detect your local currency ?

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[JorgeStolfi]

BTW people please don't think he represents academics in general. I'm one and I take great offense.

There is no such thing as an "academic in general".  As you must know, they come in all colors - from unrepentant hippies to crypto-nazis.

[manfred]

Anybody knows anxbtc exchange? They seem to have popped from nowhere and are now number 2 for volume.

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=24h

Never heard of it but its in Hong Kong and lists in pounds for me, does it detect your local currency ?

Currently in Barcelona and lists pounds too

[Walsoraj]

Anybody knows anxbtc exchange? They seem to have popped from nowhere and are now number 2 for volume.

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=24h

"volume"

[JorgeStolfi]

Guess what: most intelligent people understand that government and public services are a good thing, and that taxes are necessary to have them.

Most intelligent people 300 years ago thought people could be owned, leeches were medicine, and that outer space was filled with ether. The logical fallacy you are making is called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum. 

I am not advancing that fact that as proof that governments are good. The point is that calling taxation "stealing from the people" is not reasonable, since most people believe (rightly or wrongly) that taxes are necessary and everybody should pay them. 

Of course, many or even most people may think that certain taxes are unjustified or unfair, and that certain government spending is waste.  That does not invalidate the point.

[billyjoeallen]

BTW people please don't think he represents academics in general. I'm one and I take great offense.

There is no such thing as an "academic in general".  As you must know, they come in all colors - from unrepentant hippies to crypto-nazis.

What really bugs me is not that you know nothing of economics, but you and many others don't even think there is anything to know. You don't know classical, Marxist, Keynesian, monetarist or Austrian economics. You're like a woman who criticizes a product of automotive engineering because you don't like the color of the cars or the attitude of the drivers. You are not a worthy opponent. You don't even know what game you are attempting to play. You. don't. get. it.

[xyzzy099]

BTW people please don't think he represents academics in general. I'm one and I take great offense.

There is no such thing as an "academic in general".  As you must know, they come in all colors - from unrepentant hippies to crypto-nazis.

What really bugs me is not that you know nothing of economics, but you and many others don't even think there is anything to know. You don't know classical, Marxist, Keynesian, monetarist or Austrian economics. You're like a woman who criticizes a product of automotive engineering because you don't like the color of the cars or the attitude of the drivers. You are not a worthy opponent. You don't even know what game you are attempting to play. You. don't. get. it.

+1
QFT

[JorgeStolfi]

Anybody knows anxbtc exchange? They seem to have popped from nowhere and are now number 2 for volume.

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=24h

It has been around for a while, but used to trade in Hong Kong dollars:
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/anxhkHKD#rg180zigDailyztgOzm1g10zm2g25zv

That quoted list is quite incomplete, it omits OKCoin (more volume than Huobi) and several other Chinese exchanges, as well as LakeBTC which handles USD and is comparable to Bitstamp.
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/lakeUSD#rg180zigDailyztgOzm1g10zm2g25zv

[nrd525]

Guess what: most intelligent people understand that government and public services are a good thing, and that taxes are necessary to have them.  

That's condescending as fuck. You're trying to imply that, agreeing with public services and charging taxes to fund them, is a prerequisite for being intelligent. That's absolute and utter bullshit.

BTW people please don't think he represents academics in general. I'm one and I take great offense.

Fact Check: see how Libertarian candidates do in US elections.  Most people vote for the Democrats and Republicans - parties that support taxes and public services.

Second fact check: the majority of US professors are liberals.
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/10/24/survey-finds-professors-already-liberal-have-moved-further-left#sthash.A8ga6kGk.dpbs

[aminorex]

Some taxes are inevitable, and I won't complain much.  You have to pay someone to keep away all the other people who would extort you if you didn't.  Fine. Whenever I am tempted to think that life sucks, I just consider the alternatives.  There are even some taxes which are used in a socially positive manner.  Okay, not where I think the effort should be expended perhaps, but at least it's not actively evil.  In my (admittedly limited) experience, the lion's share of taxes are either lost to corruption or applied to categorical manifest evil.

When you allow people to cloak themselves with "legitimacy", the gates of hell open.  Precious few people, and no institutions, in history have had the moral fiber not to be corrupted by the power of the state, to kill or let live, according to a whim, and when you convince them that this is the moral high ground, well... what hope then?  We're watching, in real-time, the ongoing simultaneous breakdown of all of the paradigms of legitimacy with their intrinsic restraints AND the checks and balances which had previously restrained abuse by design.  It has all been sold to the highest bidder, and those bidders are NOT interested in buying your children a bright future.

I can see why someone who matured in a developing nation might consider progress to be the current norm.  We can endure so much if we hope for a better future.  It is not.  The peak daylight of human liberty and dignity is over.  It's time to prepare for the night which follows.  Prepare, and defend, in depth.

The situation would be different perhaps, were it not for the abdication of parenthood to the state creche.  Decades of propaganda leaves young adults unable to think in a way that is grounded in reality.  It typically takes decades of deprogramming before they are competent to manage their own affairs.  By that time, much of their revolutionary capacity is lost.  By middle-age, one tends to play it safe and restrict ones ambitions.  And the elderly (poor majority) do love the social safety net, so they are thoroughly bought, where one exists.

These unfortunate conditions will be temporary, but I suspect that they may endure for at least a decade, probably two.  The ones which are intrinsic to human nature will endure longer still, I hope (but am not certain).

[Adrian-x]

Guess what: most intelligent people understand that government and public services are a good thing, and that taxes are necessary to have them.

Most intelligent people 300 years ago thought people could be owned, leeches were medicine, and that outer space was filled with ether. The logical fallacy you are making is called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum. 

I am not advancing that fact that as proof that governments are good. The point is that calling taxation "stealing from the people" is not reasonable, since most people believe (rightly or wrongly) that taxes are necessary and everybody should pay them. 

Of course, many or even most people may think that certain taxes are unjustified or unfair, and that certain government spending is waste.  That does not invalidate the point.

So much tension, think despite your warnings many are long on Bitcoin.
Taking pride in paying tax is relative to the wealth one think they deserve, and the gratitude one reserves after the fact.

[aminorex]

Anybody knows anxbtc exchange? They seem to have popped from nowhere and are now number 2 for volume.

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=24h

Never heard of it but its in Hong Kong and lists in pounds for me, does it detect your local currency ?

Currently in Barcelona and lists pounds too

They have been around since late 2013.  They have a lot of visibility in Hong Kong.  I have never done business with them, but I would not be averse to it, if I saw an adequate reason.  I would not hold a very large part of my BTC there, unless during the tail end of a total liquidation operation (which probably means "never ever").  

I am guessing: PRC clients are switching to the best Chinese-language off-shore exchange, as on-shore exchanges become less usable, and they find anxbtc.

[ag@th0s]

Oh yeah - Brazilians love there tax regime - it's so efficient!
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2014/04/22/study-finds-brazils-state-to-be-tax-guzzling-inefficient/

Just like in the US, the opposition party loves to blast the current government for overtaxing and wasting money.  Only to do even worse when they get to power.   

When they were in power, those neocons who set up the "impostômetro" created a huge public debt by borrowing money at 40% interest per year or more.  Even today, 12 years after they lost the national government, more than half of all the tax revenue goes to pay interest on that debt, which only keeps growing.  (THAT is real armed robbery, because if the government tried to reject that debt, even with popular support, it would probably be toppled in short time.)  Still, "taxing Dilma" stands a good chance of winning a second term, with support not only from the lower- and middle-class "parasites" but from business people in general.

So the Neocons created the debt 12 years ago <bad?> at exactly the same time you were running around downtown with your scary "nota fiscal" that made everyone shut up shop because they thought you were a tax inspector?  Pardon me if I say I can't work out which side you are on.

[lyth0s]

http://advivo.com.br/blog/jorge-stolfi/cuidado-com-bitcoin

Yes.  Jorge thinks bitcoin is a dangerous ponzi and makes an argument there by first presenting a stawman argument in the form of an extreme false dichotomy.

Is this news?  He has seemed fairly transparent in his views of bitcoin.

I personally think he is wrong.

But who knows?

Statements like the one quoted below get me everytime. Isn't this statement also true for every central bank fiat currency, IE the USD? The USD is only worth what we believe its worth, in that what we are willing to trade for the $1.

The fact is that bitcoins have no value in themselves : they are only worth what people believe they are worth .

If anyone has better insight as to why or how this statement is true for bitcoin, but not for fiat. Please, please let me know. I'm awaiting enlightenment

the bank note is a promise

A promise of what though? Only that they would give you a different US dollar for it?

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[hmmmstrange]

BTW people please don't think he represents academics in general. I'm one and I take great offense.

There is no such thing as an "academic in general".  As you must know, they come in all colors - from unrepentant hippies to crypto-nazis.

"crypto-nazis"

What the fuck??

You even know what Nazis is? National socialism...... Show me one crypto coin that is socialist?

[Toxic2040]

Oh yeah - Brazilians love there tax regime - it's so efficient!
http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2014/04/22/study-finds-brazils-state-to-be-tax-guzzling-inefficient/

Just like in the US, the opposition party loves to blast the current government for overtaxing and wasting money.  Only to do even worse when they get to power.   

When they were in power, those neocons who set up the "impostômetro" created a huge public debt by borrowing money at 40% interest per year or more.  Even today, 12 years after they lost the national government, more than half of all the tax revenue goes to pay interest on that debt, which only keeps growing.  (THAT is real armed robbery, because if the government tried to reject that debt, even with popular support, it would probably be toppled in short time.)  Still, "taxing Dilma" stands a good chance of winning a second term, with support not only from the lower- and middle-class "parasites" but from business people in general.

So the Neocons created the debt 12 years ago <bad?> at exactly the same time you were running around downtown with your scary "nota fiscal" that made everyone shut up shop because they thought you were a tax inspector?  Pardon me if I say I can't work out which side you are on.

I really don't care anymore at this point. Welcome to ignore Jorgi. Statements like the above really piss me off, especially coming from the mouth of a so called educated person.

p.s. I call bullshit on the "Academic interest only"

Thanks bye.

[JimboToronto]

You even know what a Nazis is? National socialism...... Show me one crypto coin that is socialist?

Um. Just because they called themselves Socialists doesn't make them socialist.

They were in fact fascists, right-wingers not left-wingers.

[/politics]