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Author Topic: [0 GH/s 0% fee SMPPS] ArsBitcoin mining pool!  (Read 117439 times)
Luke-Jr
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August 18, 2011, 12:14:31 AM
 #381

Hopefully our luck turns soon, but if not, I thought I would again explain how payouts work when we can not pay all of the Total PPS work.

So, various miners have a Total PPS work > Paid PPS Work.  This is because the pool doesn't have BTC to pay anyone.  Once we get more BTC, the following occurs:

Each miner has an 'ideal payment' of Total PPS Work - Paid PPS work.  For example, Miner 1 could have 100 Total PPS Work, 99 Paid.  His ideal payment is 1 BTC.  Miner 2 has 50 Total PPS work, and 48 Paid PPS work, or an ideal payment of 2.

Lets say the pool just confirmed a new block that is worth 1 BTC.  First, we get the ratio of what we can pay everyone.  Total outstanding ideal payments in this 2 miner pool is 3 (2 + 1.)  So, our total ratio that we can pay people is (1 / 3) or 0.333333etc. 

This means that Miner 1 gets (1 * 0.333333etc) BTC and Miner 2 gets (2 * 0.3333333etc) BTC, for a total of 1 paid out (all that the pool has available.)

Note that this isn't exactly like Eligius' SMPPS, where older shares get paid first I believe.
No, this is exactly the same as Eligius' SMPPS-- we do not prioritize (nor track) any shares.

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BurningToad
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August 18, 2011, 12:28:12 AM
 #382

No, this is exactly the same as Eligius' SMPPS-- we do not prioritize (nor track) any shares.

Ah, ok, sorry Smiley  Good to know!  I incorrectly mixed the reward system with the payment system.

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August 18, 2011, 11:33:08 PM
 #383

changing the payment scheme is a big deal and not something you should rush into,

I'd like to continue the "grand SMPPS experiment" and see what happens, but I would very much like to see the pseudo PPLNS system side-by-side to compare the two options.

I've made arsbitcoin my home for the past month or two for a number of reasons:
1) purely sentimental, this is where I found my first (and only) block Grin
2) it has pretty good uptime (compared to some others I've tried)
3) it has a low (zero) fee
4) and I get low stales (around 0.3% lifetime - I have gotten up to 10 times that at some other pools)

I've read a bit about pool hopping and how it can affect payouts for steady miners in proportional pools, I'm curious how it affects us? (I realize that it shouldn't have an effect, but I've also seen that our buffer has been steadily going down ever since the hashrate started spiking like it has in the last few weeks)

whatever payment plan discourages pool hopping the most, while still offering low fees and good performance (low stales) is where I wanna be.

"You have no moral right to rule us, nor do you possess any methods of enforcement that we have reason to fear." - John Perry Barlow, 1996
oo-oo
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August 19, 2011, 02:08:17 AM
 #384

So basically, as soon as we find a block we r going to be paid ?
Meatball
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August 19, 2011, 03:42:09 AM
 #385

So basically, as soon as we find a block we r going to be paid ?

That's not how it works.  As long as the pool has Confirmed BTC available in the buffer, you get paid for your shares immediately.  If there isn't enough confirmed BTC available you build up your "Unpaid" shares and as new blocks get confirmed those will start getting paid out.

Basically we have to wait for 120 future blocks to confirm a found block before the pool can start using those BTC to payout.
BadPenny
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August 19, 2011, 03:58:45 PM
 #386

So basically, as soon as we find a block we r going to be paid ?

You need to look at the Pool Stats, then notice Total PPS and Paid PPS Work.  As the SMPPS Buffer gets replenished (i.e. good luck), then the difference between those two gets smaller. (i.e. gettin' paid)

Right now, the difference is -145.18059901.  The buffer only has +54.81940099.  So that still leaves -90.36119802 to be paid out.  
There are 200 BTC unconfirmed, but as those get confirmed, more work gets done, thus increasing the Total PPS Work owed to miners.  
The buffer really needs to be (what, like 5x?) bigger than the difference between Total and Paid for SMPPS to keep up day after day without going into a deficit.

It's like if all the workers are simultaneously letting water out of a rain barrel.  Unpaid Work is just a way to keep the barrel from getting completely empty before it rains again.  Think of this as a block drought.
Every payment method is subject to luck.  

In other words, what Meatball said.   Cheesy

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twmz
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August 19, 2011, 04:12:59 PM
 #387

So basically, as soon as we find a block we r going to be paid ?

Isn't oo-oo asking how about the future PPLNS and not asking about how it works now?  In PPLNS, you get credited when blocks are found based on your contribution over the past N shares.  That goes in an unconfirmed balance.  When that block gets 120 confirmations, that amount moves to the confirmed balance.  When your confirmed balance gets over your configured threshold, a payment is sent.  There are no buffers in PPLNS.

Was I helpful?  1TwmzX1wBxNF2qtAJRhdKmi2WyLZ5VHRs
WoT, GPG

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BadPenny
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August 19, 2011, 04:30:46 PM
 #388

Isn't oo-oo asking how about the future PPLNS and not asking about how it works now?

Not sure.  oo-oo, what say you?

Either way, things are looking a little better today.

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oo-oo
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August 19, 2011, 04:53:27 PM
 #389

Isn't oo-oo asking how about the future PPLNS and not asking about how it works now?

Not sure.  oo-oo, what say you?

Either way, things are looking a little better today.

No u were right with ur ansewer, also metball, and twmz helps me to understand someething that was unclear. Ty!

BTW:
Last 10 Blocks Found
141,643   1   User 791   2011-08-19 16:45
141,639   5   maximF   2011-08-19 16:15
141,625   19   AD / DuffMan   2011-08-19 13:35

This r really good new, arent this ?
BadPenny
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August 19, 2011, 05:09:24 PM
 #390

Yes, excellent news.  Three recent blocks <1,000,000 shares each.  They should confirm rather quickly, and then into the buffer.

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Hotdog453
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August 19, 2011, 05:10:50 PM
 #391

Yeah. Quicker blocks = good.
BurningToad
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August 19, 2011, 06:21:15 PM
 #392

changing the payment scheme is a big deal and not something you should rush into,

I'd like to continue the "grand SMPPS experiment" and see what happens, but I would very much like to see the pseudo PPLNS system side-by-side to compare the two options.

I've made arsbitcoin my home for the past month or two for a number of reasons:
1) purely sentimental, this is where I found my first (and only) block Grin
2) it has pretty good uptime (compared to some others I've tried)
3) it has a low (zero) fee
4) and I get low stales (around 0.3% lifetime - I have gotten up to 10 times that at some other pools)

I've read a bit about pool hopping and how it can affect payouts for steady miners in proportional pools, I'm curious how it affects us? (I realize that it shouldn't have an effect, but I've also seen that our buffer has been steadily going down ever since the hashrate started spiking like it has in the last few weeks)

whatever payment plan discourages pool hopping the most, while still offering low fees and good performance (low stales) is where I wanna be.


Thanks for the input!  I was kind of rushing into it, afraid of everyone leaving when we weren't able to act like a 0% fee PPS pool.  However, it has turned out that users have not been too bothered by the delay in payment that has popped up lately, so I'm not as worried about it for the moment.

This means, I will plan on completing PPLNS code, and enabling it in a "simulation mode" like I mentioned before.  Then we can see what it looks like!

As far as what discourages pool hopping the most, I think PPLNS is a little better than SMPPS.  Neither is vulnerable to the "Prop pool" style of hopping based on round length, but, SMPPS is somewhat vulnerable to people hopping out based on going into a negative buffer.  They stop mining, but those who continue mining basically help pay their past credit deficit.  This was the main reason to consider a switch to PPLNS.

BurningToad
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August 19, 2011, 06:23:43 PM
 #393

Would it be possible to make it so that workers can be deleted, not just hidden?

Can you elaborate on why you would like this feature?  The only thing I can think of is that you want to erase all stats for some worker name, and re-use the same worker name for new stats.  Otherwise, hiding a worker is basically like deleting one.  While it sounds like a simple task to allow real worker deletion, it is not.  Therefore unless there is some very strong reason to allow it, it won't get done Smiley

BadPenny
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August 19, 2011, 06:55:30 PM
 #394

The only thing I can think of is that you want to erase all stats for some worker name, and re-use the same worker name for new stats. 
Yes, just a little housekeeping.

While it sounds like a simple task to allow real worker deletion, it is not.  Therefore unless there is some very strong reason to allow it, it won't get done Smiley
If it's a lot of trouble, I understand.  Maybe it can be worked in later on?  Some other pools allow deletion, so I just thought I'd ask.

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cdb000
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August 20, 2011, 03:28:06 PM
 #395

Would it be possible to make it so that workers can be deleted, not just hidden?

Can you elaborate on why you would like this feature?  The only thing I can think of is that you want to erase all stats for some worker name, and re-use the same worker name for new stats.  Otherwise, hiding a worker is basically like deleting one.  While it sounds like a simple task to allow real worker deletion, it is not.  Therefore unless there is some very strong reason to allow it, it won't get done Smiley


As I don't run a pool, it's not really my place to suggest, but...

... you could create a 'DELETE' button that renames the offending miner to a name that cannot be reused (eg. starting with a ~ or some such) and hides it permanently. This would look like a delete to the user, but might be easier to program.
BadPenny
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August 20, 2011, 03:57:54 PM
 #396

262,664 shares in 6 hours 30 minutes?  Is that right?   Huh

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Hotdog453
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August 20, 2011, 04:20:52 PM
 #397

I think we found a block, and then it failed to update the Time Since Last Block.

I've been glancing at it this morning, and I believe that's what might of happened.
BurningToad
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August 20, 2011, 04:37:03 PM
 #398

I think we found a block, and then it failed to update the Time Since Last Block.

I've been glancing at it this morning, and I believe that's what might of happened.

Hey,

Sorry, my code that tries to fix block numbers to be correct (could be off a bit before) was causing problems.  I've fixed it for now.

Hotdog453
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August 20, 2011, 05:19:09 PM
 #399

I think we found a block, and then it failed to update the Time Since Last Block.

I've been glancing at it this morning, and I believe that's what might of happened.

Hey,

Sorry, my code that tries to fix block numbers to be correct (could be off a bit before) was causing problems.  I've fixed it for now.

Not a problem. I've just been trying to wrap my head around how this all works in practice, and figured that's what occurred.
Hotdog453
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August 21, 2011, 07:27:29 PM
 #400

The whole process of mining reminds me amazingly of Warhammer. I just keep screaming "Blood for the Blood God" as I watch the stats change.

There is something insanely wrong with me.
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