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Author Topic: [0 GH/s 0% fee SMPPS] ArsBitcoin mining pool!  (Read 117411 times)
BurningToad
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July 06, 2011, 04:28:45 PM
 #181

Ok, I'm going to try to stop responding to every post.  This IS a new payment system, and we will have to see how it goes.  Almost every other pool out there is proportional, so there are plenty of options if you prefer that method.  For those that are interested in this method, you're welcome to stay.  I think it just comes down to preference.

Here are some more resources to compare payment methods, courtesy of luke-jr from Eligius.

Charts comparing real-world payouts:
http://eligius.st/~luke-jr/samples/800MH/

Notice the pros and cons of proportional:
    Easy math: (your shares / total shares) * reward
    Pays full reward for every block for work on that same block
    Pays in excess of work done for short blocks
    Pays less than work done for long blocks
    Easy payout improvement with pool hopping
    Risk from withholding is distributed among miners

And the pros and cons of SMPPS:
    Fixed rate of payout for work performed, limited overall by actual miner performance
    Never overpaid based on pool earnings; underpaid only when overall work performed has failed to deliver
    No benefit for pool hopping
    Risk from withholding is distributed among miners
    Non-reward credits carry over for future payment, regardless of future work

More discussion of various payment methods:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=21999.0

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bitblazing
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July 06, 2011, 09:33:48 PM
 #182

As one on the first 7  or eight to join I do not like this change. I liked the randomness and the massive payouts. I do not like the new system at all.
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July 06, 2011, 09:59:03 PM
 #183

I can understand folks maybe not liking the switch, but don't say that BT just 'sprung' this on anyone.  He brought up the idea over a week ago and asked for comments.  If you had a problem back then, you should have spoke up, and if you're new, you should read at least a few pages of the posts before you hop into a pool.

That being said, this will level the playing field and give more standardized payouts, but it's not better or worse than any other way to mine for your wallet, you'll get paid the same.  Over the long haul, you are going to make XX amount of bitcoins (assuming the same hashrate/difficulty) no matter how you mine, minus any fees you pay of course.  It's probability, you may not like it, but you can't escape it. Smiley  

While it was great to get 9 payouts over the last 4 days, there were times we went way above the average number before you had a payout.  Eventually things would level out.  So maybe some of the 'excitement' of the pool is gone and it's now more of a steady payout, but it's really just a matter of preference.  If the system doesn't work out, I'm sure BT will switch back, but I still think it's better to see a regular, steady payout than see 9 in 4 days and then maybe go 6 days without one.

There's ton's of pools out there doing proportional shares (Bitclockers is awesome and is my backup pool) if you really don't want to do PPS and like the smaller pool/excitement thing.

Whatever you do though, don't go to deepbit.  They charge way too much and are too big already Smiley
BurningToad
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July 06, 2011, 10:07:50 PM
 #184

For anyone who wants MORE proportional/SMPPS discussion to help them decide what they prefer, there is more fun here! http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=24966.msg333619#msg333619


bitblazing
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July 07, 2011, 01:08:43 AM
 #185

I can understand folks maybe not liking the switch, but don't say that BT just 'sprung' this on anyone.  He brought up the idea over a week ago and asked for comments.  If you had a problem back then, you should have spoke up, and if you're new, you should read at least a few pages of the posts before you hop into a pool.

That being said, this will level the playing field and give more standardized payouts, but it's not better or worse than any other way to mine for your wallet, you'll get paid the same.  Over the long haul, you are going to make XX amount of bitcoins (assuming the same hashrate/difficulty) no matter how you mine, minus any fees you pay of course.  It's probability, you may not like it, but you can't escape it. Smiley  

While it was great to get 9 payouts over the last 4 days, there were times we went way above the average number before you had a payout.  Eventually things would level out.  So maybe some of the 'excitement' of the pool is gone and it's now more of a steady payout, but it's really just a matter of preference.  If the system doesn't work out, I'm sure BT will switch back, but I still think it's better to see a regular, steady payout than see 9 in 4 days and then maybe go 6 days without one.

There's ton's of pools out there doing proportional shares (Bitclockers is awesome and is my backup pool) if you really don't want to do PPS and like the smaller pool/excitement thing.

Whatever you do though, don't go to deepbit.  They charge way too much and are too big already Smiley

No one said any of this. Some of us have jobs and dont read everythread posted. Like I said I love BT and all he has done but I dont like this and I most likely will leave because of it. I like the small pool feel and this no longer has it.
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July 07, 2011, 01:26:23 AM
 #186

No one said any of this. Some of us have jobs and dont read everythread posted. Like I said I love BT and all he has done but I dont like this and I most likely will leave because of it. I like the small pool feel and this no longer has it.

I'm not saying you did, just that someone did.

I was considering joining your pool. . .
I'm glad you showed a willingness to do a rapid change of the pool's ToS that significantly materially affects the mining agreement with little or no notice to your customers.
That alone is a deal-breaker for me.
The fact that the change was from 0% proportional to a system that credits users a fraction of that on short rounds (see my thread on reward comparison) is in itself a deal breaker even if you had given a bare minimum of 48 hrs or so notice by email or some other form like the header of your thread.
Finally, the fact your site doesn't have ssl as all the more popular ones is another.
It is unlikely these differences will ever be reconciled.

Best of luck though, I hope you make some money off the miners using this pps, and I hope they get what they deserve.

I admit I'll miss the excitement of logging on in the morning and finding 2 or 3 found blocks, but after watching my backup pool Bitclockers hit a 3 million share block and then a 6 million share block and then another 3 million share block back to back last round, I'd rather be a bit bored with a steady payout than deal with variance like that.
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July 07, 2011, 01:46:11 AM
 #187

This is great for people who want to just set it and forget it. In the old system, blocks that last for millions of rounds are really bad; I might personally shut down the miner as the probable rewards probably aren't worth it. For making money, boring is good.
I would suggest buying the lottery if you want some excitement. Keep in mind that the expected return is <1, which is the same case as PPS the way it was implemented (due to hoppers).
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July 07, 2011, 03:18:16 AM
 #188

ArsBitcoin current stats:

Current Hashrate: 94.3 GH/s
Current Workers:  324

Seems like more have joined with the new payout.


"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
twmz
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July 07, 2011, 04:30:15 AM
 #189

Stick to your guns.  SMPPS was a good choice.

Was I helpful?  1TwmzX1wBxNF2qtAJRhdKmi2WyLZ5VHRs
WoT, GPG

Bitrated user: ewal.
loglow
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July 07, 2011, 06:40:22 AM
 #190

I support the change in payout scheme and have resumed mining at this pool.
miscreanity
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July 07, 2011, 11:57:29 AM
 #191

This is great for people who want to just set it and forget it. In the old system, blocks that last for millions of rounds are really bad; I might personally shut down the miner as the probable rewards probably aren't worth it. For making money, boring is good.
I would suggest buying the lottery if you want some excitement. Keep in mind that the expected return is <1, which is the same case as PPS the way it was implemented (due to hoppers).

Exactly. It's kind of like the difference between a dividend-paying stock and the next high-flying tech darling - not sexy, but very reliable. Consistency and stability will be much more important as the Bitcoin environment develops anyway.

SMPPS +1
happyraul
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July 07, 2011, 12:26:15 PM
 #192

I like the new payment scheme. Consistent payouts and the like are fine, but the main draw for me is the protection against pool hoppers.

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theowalpott
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July 07, 2011, 02:10:45 PM
 #193

One question about the new system.

Suppose the pot is in the negative (ie, ppl are owed coins, but we haven't mined enough yet).. if I try to cash out, will I have to wait until we have mined the next block? Also, is there an order to who gets paid, ie who tried to cash out first, and so on?

1FwGATm6eU5dSiTp2rpazV5u3qwbx1fuDn
Lightspeed
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July 07, 2011, 02:12:43 PM
 #194

Hi,

Tom Lightspeed here, did some stats work, if you like it please donate: 1LYjJCtP8RFJ6zz6orxf5ym9CrvxPS4pDr

I could do some of the things you guys want too from what I am reading

May the force be with you

I do appreciate it tom!  I sent you 0.5 BTC a while back.  If the pool becomes a net positive for me, or we request some work, I can send some more Smiley Others are of course welcome to donate too if you like the stats page!

Ahh that was you! thanks Cheesy

Overclocking = money? Greatest full time hobby ever!
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Zoomer
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July 07, 2011, 02:38:43 PM
 #195

Up to 102 GH/s.

I noticed another block was found 4 hours ago. The other pools must hate us.
BurningToad
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July 07, 2011, 04:14:03 PM
 #196

One question about the new system.

Suppose the pot is in the negative (ie, ppl are owed coins, but we haven't mined enough yet).. if I try to cash out, will I have to wait until we have mined the next block? Also, is there an order to who gets paid, ie who tried to cash out first, and so on?

So, there is "Total PPS Work".  This is the number of shares you've submitted that have been counted and noted.  Then, there is "Paid PPS Work".  When the pool gets available BTC (currently, there is 50 BTC unconfirmed), this BTC will immediately go towards trying to make everyone's "Paid PPS Work" equal to their "Total PPS Work".  It does this in a fair way.  If 5 people are owed 2 BTC each (10 total) but only 5 BTC are available to pay out, each person gets 1 BTC added to their "Paid PPS Work".  The "SMPPS Buffer" would now be at -5.  The next time the pool gets BTC, it will continue to try and pay everyone.  

You can only "cash out" Paid PPS Work.  When BTC is added to your Paid PPS work, it is added to your actual "Current Balance".  When you have a current balance, that is when you can request a payout.  If you have a current balance, you don't have to wait for any blocks or anything like that.  The BTC is all ready to send to you.

BurningToad
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July 07, 2011, 07:17:45 PM
 #197

You can get a free cert here. Compatible with any modern browser.
http://www.startssl.com/

This has been set up.  Let me know if there are any issues.  Right now everything is redirected to SSL.  Do people prefer that, or prefer to have the option of HTTP/HTTPS?

miscreanity
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July 07, 2011, 09:12:09 PM
 #198

Do people prefer that, or prefer to have the option of HTTP/HTTPS?

HTTPS all the way.
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July 08, 2011, 01:15:14 AM
 #199

I was considering joining your pool. . .
I'm glad you showed a willingness to do a rapid change of the pool's ToS that significantly materially affects the mining agreement with little or no notice to your customers.
That alone is a deal-breaker for me.
The fact that the change was from 0% proportional to a system that credits users a fraction of that on short rounds (see my thread on reward comparison) is in itself a deal breaker even if you had given a bare minimum of 48 hrs or so notice by email or some other form like the header of your thread.
Finally, the fact your site doesn't have ssl as all the more popular ones is another.
It is unlikely these differences will ever be reconciled.

Best of luck though, I hope you make some money off the miners using this pps, and I hope they get what they deserve.

I have been mentioning the switch to SMPPS for quite a while now in this thread as well as on IRC.  I could have given better warning, but the expected reward for mining on the pool has not been reduced at all.

Your reward comparison thread shows some payment problems at Eligius, not payment problems here.  If the pool has BTC to pay, and someone is owed BTC, it WILL pay them.  It is very clear on our website how much the pool owes, how much it has, how much it has paid out, etc.  Miners will NOT get short changed on this system.  The pool will NOT "make money off the miners".  Over time, the SMPPS buffer will trend towards zero by definition.  I am not going to suddenly stop the pool with a large BTC buffer and not pay it out to miners.
Please don't feed the troll just to promote your pool. The fact is that GimEEE's nonsensical rant against Eligius is not much different from his rant here. Eligius, also, announced the plans to transition to the new system about a month in advance. Eligius, also, will pay whatever BTC is owed. Etc.

BurningToad
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July 08, 2011, 02:10:37 AM
 #200

Please don't feed the troll just to promote your pool. The fact is that GimEEE's nonsensical rant against Eligius is not much different from his rant here. Eligius, also, announced the plans to transition to the new system about a month in advance. Eligius, also, will pay whatever BTC is owed. Etc.

Sorry, I didn't mean to slight Eligius in any way.  I am indeed done with answering GimEEE now.

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