[Closed]Avalon Chips - 0.081 BTC (Global+Escrow)-BATCH2 SECURED

[klondike_bar]

Are the boards fully payed. Do you keep the funds in btc or are they payed/converted. How much can we get refunded.

I asked him personally ;

Code:

Hi,
It's a bit late as i have paid for the components already..

this is the answer i guess all things are paid!

even so, avalon chips are almost 70% of the cost. In any case an update would be nice, though the blame is clearly on avalon

[Henchman24]

The only solution to this is a simple vote on the matter. Majority wins.

I agree completely with hacko.bg - vote is the best that we can do.

It doesn't look like we're going to get that chance.  As I said before, the refund window is only open for another day or so and Steve doesn't appear to be interested.

Where did you read this?

It's littered throughout several of the group buy threads, bitsyncom posts, avalon emails, etc.

Here's a good synopsis at coindesk though:  http://www.coindesk.com/avalon-asic-customer-bitcoin-refunds-delivery-delays/

[t13hydra]

Hello all,
A few bits of news, information: i have received a newsletter from Avalon stating that they are offering the refunds, but there was no official deadline to ask for that refund. Besides this, they have stated that a large order is coming in tomorrow (Wednesday, 04.Sep) that will fulfill any order made in June. This means, in my perception, that our order made on 23rd of May, is already being shipped, or in transit to Romania. In any way, we're very close to get those chips, but that's just my opinion. Above this, i've sent a message to BitSyncom today asking for information on our batch and the alternatives to fix the late delivery and the destroyed ROI everybody (even me) is expecting.

Here's a piece of the newsletter sent by them:

Code:

In other news, for those who decided to wait or wish to know more about delivery schedule will be glad to note
we are receiving a batch of 400,000+ chips on Wednesday, with that we expect to be in good shape for meeting
the upcoming deadlines of chip deliveries for orders made in June and later.

Regarding the Klondike development, the following things happened:
- Firmware is ready
- Board is ready, no more "deadly" flaws in the design, so i went on and ordered in mass production
- Two proto boards (and pre-programmed controllers) are on their way to Romania, no response from BkkCoins after several e-mails asking for the delivery date (anybody got a personal phone number or e-mail address from BkkCoins, please?)
- Other logistic bits and pieces are falling into place
- The components are flowing in the production plant (slowly but surely)

In any way, i'm working on fixing their mistake and fixing the gone ROI. I have a few ideas, but let's wait for BitSyncom to respond. I may have some news later today and if i do, i will make sure i post them here. Meanwhile, try to stop panicing, because the BTC/USD pair is a rocket again. The value is testing the $145 resistance points and is likely to break it, heading towards $155 / 1 BTC. In this pace, we can see some recovery in value, after the recent difficulty jump.

Have a good day,
Steve

[skrubalov]

1. I don't need them to ROI, i have payed with bitcoins mined from my farm witch have ROI-d itself long time ago. So this is reinvestemnt for me.
2. I don't pay for electricity
3. They will ROI. It will take 4 months for that according to my calculations.

All this points are really good. Especially 1 and 2:
1. You are getting back less than you had before, so, you're happily losing money.
2. You are either stealing energy or producing solar energy. But winter's coming / fotovoltaic is not for everybody. And stealing is forbidden.


Sad to say, but i must accept the most of you pay energy at better prices than me, and the most don't want to lose the money of the pcb order.
So i will follow la volontè generale, no problem with that.

But, i was thinking, many seem to be planning ROI in 3 months.
So: why nobodys buying my chips at 0.07? I will go back to 0.081 right now, with an estimate like that.

1. They will ROI and in the process i will make more money.
2. I don't steal. Electricity is included in my workplace montly rent. I pay nothing.
3. I don't know about k16 overclocking, but HEX 16 can go up to 450 mhz(mhs), and it is cheaper. Try to use these numbers in your calculations.
4. I will happily buy your chips, but my btc ballance shows 0.xxx so it won't be soon.

[t13hydra]

1. I don't need them to ROI, i have payed with bitcoins mined from my farm witch have ROI-d itself long time ago. So this is reinvestemnt for me.
2. I don't pay for electricity
3. They will ROI. It will take 4 months for that according to my calculations.

All this points are really good. Especially 1 and 2:
1. You are getting back less than you had before, so, you're happily losing money.
2. You are either stealing energy or producing solar energy. But winter's coming / fotovoltaic is not for everybody. And stealing is forbidden.


Sad to say, but i must accept the most of you pay energy at better prices than me, and the most don't want to lose the money of the pcb order.
So i will follow la volontè generale, no problem with that.

But, i was thinking, many seem to be planning ROI in 3 months.
So: why nobodys buying my chips at 0.07? I will go back to 0.081 right now, with an estimate like that.

1. They will ROI and in the process i will make more money.
2. I don't steal. Electricity is included in my workplace montly rent. I pay nothing.
3. I don't know about k16 overclocking, but HEX 16 can go up to 450 mhz(mhs), and it is cheaper. Try to use these numbers in your calculations.
4. I will happily buy your chips, but my btc ballance shows 0.xxx so it won't be soon.

A little bit of correction here: Even with a difficulty of 90M, the ROI will happen in 3 months for one full Klondike miner. If we take today's difficulty, we're talking two months and a couple of weeks.

[t13hydra]

Hi,
Have thought about the refunds and my decision is a no go. Of course, if Avalon doesn't give me an answer soon, i will have to listen to the majority, but for now i wouldn't want to back out right 2 meters before the finish line.. I repeat for the sake of those who did't read the above posts: Avalon is shipping orders made in June.. This means our first batch should already be shipped.
One of my ideas to compensate for the lost time here is to build the miners, but instead of sending them, keep them and host them (for free) at one of my places for a few months, making sure you recover your investment (you've got to love the electricity fees in Ro). After everybody has recovered his/her own personal investmens, either continue hosting them for 10% of the profits or ship them to the given delivery addresses.
This idea was in the back of my brain for a long time now, creating a mining organization based on shares / contracts and offering bitcoin for bitcoin, hassle-free, like AsicMiner does.

[alchimista]

Hi,
Have thought about the refunds and my decision is a no go. Of course, if Avalon doesn't give me an answer soon, i will have to listen to the majority, but for now i wouldn't want to back out right 2 meters before the finish line.. I repeat for the sake of those who did't read the above posts: Avalon is shipping orders made in June.. This means our first batch should already be shipped.
One of my ideas to compensate for the lost time here is to build the miners, but instead of sending them, keep them and host them (for free) at one of my places for a few months, making sure you recover your investment (you've got to love the electricity fees in Ro). After everybody has recovered his/her own personal investmens, either continue hosting them for 10% of the profits or ship them to the given delivery addresses.
This idea was in the back of my brain for a long time now, creating a mining organization based on shares / contracts and offering bitcoin for bitcoin, hassle-free, like AsicMiner does.

First of all, i really appreciate your effort and i agree with your point of view, even if i wouldn't trust BitSyncom has shipped our chips already (only orders from April has been satisfied since now): if they did, shouldn't we have a tracking number already?
Also, an hosting service would be really great, but are you considering all the costs you will have to cover for renting, cooling, electricity and all the time you will have to spend to setup and everything else? And the setup for an interface for the miners?
Really, hosting for free is possible for you? Maybe a little fee could cover your costs, like the fees of a pool, and we could still recover the investment.

[hacko.bg]

Everybody can check here what is the status of the orders: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277198.0

There is no movement around deliveries, for anybody, so I highly doubt that our chips are on the way.

[Henchman24]

Everybody can check here what is the status of the orders: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277198.0

There is no movement around deliveries, for anybody, so I highly doubt that our chips are on the way.

Agreed.  It sounds like the soonest our chips will ship is tomorrow.  Bitsyncom wouldn't be offering refunds for orders that have already shipped.

[zapperzme]

Orders were not shipped yet.

Code:

... note we are receiving a batch of 400,000+ chips on Wednesday...

They receive the chips from the foundry tomorrow and will probably procede to ship further. Right?

At least that's what I understand from those few lines in the newsletter transcript Steve posted.


Daniel.

[legendster]

Everybody can check here what is the status of the orders: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=277198.0

There is no movement around deliveries, for anybody, so I highly doubt that our chips are on the way.

Agreed.  It sounds like the soonest our chips will ship is tomorrow.  Bitsyncom wouldn't be offering refunds for orders that have already shipped.

Shut up you POS.

[hekiman]

Hi,
Have thought about the refunds and my decision is a no go. Of course, if Avalon doesn't give me an answer soon, i will have to listen to the majority, but for now i wouldn't want to back out right 2 meters before the finish line.. I repeat for the sake of those who did't read the above posts: Avalon is shipping orders made in June.. This means our first batch should already be shipped.
One of my ideas to compensate for the lost time here is to build the miners, but instead of sending them, keep them and host them (for free) at one of my places for a few months, making sure you recover your investment (you've got to love the electricity fees in Ro). After everybody has recovered his/her own personal investmens, either continue hosting them for 10% of the profits or ship them to the given delivery addresses.
This idea was in the back of my brain for a long time now, creating a mining organization based on shares / contracts and offering bitcoin for bitcoin, hassle-free, like AsicMiner does.

+1
You mean paid delivery costs are your hosting fees (for a few months)?

[t13hydra]

Hi,
Have thought about the refunds and my decision is a no go. Of course, if Avalon doesn't give me an answer soon, i will have to listen to the majority, but for now i wouldn't want to back out right 2 meters before the finish line.. I repeat for the sake of those who did't read the above posts: Avalon is shipping orders made in June.. This means our first batch should already be shipped.
One of my ideas to compensate for the lost time here is to build the miners, but instead of sending them, keep them and host them (for free) at one of my places for a few months, making sure you recover your investment (you've got to love the electricity fees in Ro). After everybody has recovered his/her own personal investmens, either continue hosting them for 10% of the profits or ship them to the given delivery addresses.
This idea was in the back of my brain for a long time now, creating a mining organization based on shares / contracts and offering bitcoin for bitcoin, hassle-free, like AsicMiner does.

+1
You mean paid delivery costs are your hosting fees (for a few months)?

Yes, something like that could be arranged. Haven't had the time to think about the last details, but i'm working on it every day. Will post back here later today.

[Twh]

making sure you recover your investment

The miners only reach ROI if you are very optimistic about future events. Price will not go below 100, difficulty increase won't speed up further, and most importantly, the miners will be up and running in a month.

What I don't see is why you dismiss the option of refunding chip costs and the shipping fees. It's not like it costs you anything, you're not refunding the components you bought, you're not refunding any surplus you might've gotten for the chips. If there are people who want their miners despite the not exactly stellar odds, and it seems that there are, you can still do what others did and only ask for refund for one of the two orders, or combine orders with other group buys.
Really, the very least you could do is ask everyone what they want and act accordingly, since you're managing a group buy that's kind of what you should do as well.

[t13hydra]

making sure you recover your investment

The miners only reach ROI if you are very optimistic about future events. Price will not go below 100, difficulty increase won't speed up further, and most importantly, the miners will be up and running in a month.

What I don't see is why you dismiss the option of refunding chip costs and the shipping fees. It's not like it costs you anything, you're not refunding the components you bought, you're not refunding any surplus you might've gotten for the chips. If there are people who want their miners despite the not exactly stellar odds, and it seems that there are, you can still do what others did and only ask for refund for one of the two orders, or combine orders with other group buys.
Really, the very least you could do is ask everyone what they want and act accordingly, since you're managing a group buy that's kind of what you should do as well.

I know bailing out is easy, making it work is the harder part, but if everyone bailed out at the first difficulty they had, we wouldn't be talking about Bitcoin... And i don't think we fight against "stellar odds". I'm very calculated and if i make a mistake, i'm also prepared to face the consequences. As far as i see now, 2.8 Terra hashes  make their ROI in two months. I don't understand the anger behind the tone you used above. If you would like your chips, that's ok with me. But if you think about it, you could have BTC flowing in faster than you might get your miners and start mining. I gues i understand you too, having the miner in your hand, bragging about it and showing it off to everybody, but the end results are the same: you need the BTC that it produces. And this is what i offer here. I guess i can't make everybody happy, i'll just do my best to satisfy most of them.
PS: What you don't see is my work here. I know it's easy to dismiss it, but just think about the hours invested in this and then all of a sudden, it fades away to 37000 pointless views and 850 pointless posts in a forum, hm? How does that sound?

[Twh]

I know bailing out is easy, making it work is the harder part, but if everyone bailed out at the first difficulty they had, we wouldn't be talking about Bitcoin... And i don't think we fight against "stellar odds". I'm very calculated and if i make a mistake, i'm also prepared to face the consequences. As far as i see now, 2.8 Terra hashes  make their ROI in two months. I don't understand the anger behind the tone you used above. If you would like your chips, that's ok with me. But if you think about it, you could have BTC flowing in faster than you might get your miners and start mining. I gues i understand you too, having the miner in your hand, bragging about it and showing it off to everybody, but the end results are the same: you need the BTC that it produces. And this is what i offer here. I guess i can't make everybody happy, i'll just do my best to satisfy most of them.
PS: What you don't see is my work here. I know it's easy to dismiss it, but just think about the hours invested in this and then all of a sudden, it fades away to 37000 pointless views and 850 pointless posts in a forum, hm? How does that sound?

Oh no, you seemed to misunderstand me. I'll just be blunt, and please don't confuse this with rudeness, that's not my intention:
The most important bit I'm talking about here is the group buy. Not your hosting idea, not your assembly service. The group buy is a bunch of people who trusted you with their money to purchase chips. It's not up to you to decide what to do with that group buy, it's up to the people who took part, your task is carrying out what they want. If, out of the 2 group buys, 50% of the people want their money back instead of waiting for the chips, then you should request a refund from BitSyncom for one of the group buys and divide the money you get back amongst the people who want a refund.
The fact that you only added .003BTC/chip to the price, at points even less than that, is very nice of you, but the risk was yours to take, you expected to get compensated for your efforts from the assembly (for which, mind you, you could still keep some of the money for, others are doing the same as well, and thus getting more compensation for the effort you put in). So all things considered, unless you managed funds really really badly, you are getting compensated for your time, maybe not as well as you'd hoped, but that's still something.
If you have some idealistic reasons for going on and not even asking people what they want, e.g. "We started this so let's finish it" or "We need to help bitcoin grow!", then you have to put those aside real fast, because this is other people's money you're talking about. You can do what you want with your own money, but others should have a right to decide. If you ask everyone and it turns out only some 10% wants a refund, then I'll shut up and go with it, but you're saying you don't have to ask people what they want because you know better. That's a horrible thing to even think, nevermind actually doing it.

Again, the assembly is different thing entirely that you have to handle differently, and it's not what I'm talking about here.

The hosting option, considering the circumstances, is a good idea, but I'd much rather have my money back than to wait for BitSyncom to ship. You don't have any idea when the chips are going to arrive. Neither does any of us, and neither does BitSyncom by the looks of it. But at this point, when we can be sure that they missed their planned time of delivery by almost 100%, the odds of this not being profitable are high enough to make me want to get a refund over investing more into it just to possibly reach ROI and some minor profit beyond that, if I get lucky.

[Xialla]

Steve,

could you please explain me, why I can't request refund here? I'm pretty sure, that majority wants the same (please check another groupbuy threads - nobody trust avalon and (almost) everybody wants his funds back)

batch 1 of this group buy fits requirements for refund, chips + boards + hosting (if you paid by BTC) are already without ROI. please consider this option. everybody will be happy and lost will not be so big..

OR

create VOTE and ask users via PM for their opinion. This day by day waiting cost money. All of us.

D.

[t13hydra]

Ok, you're right. I'm not the one to decide and Avalon doesn't give a shit about my sent e-mail. Poll added.

What is Hosting? A new idea that is very old in my mind, an idea that i haven't had the time to develop:

Hosting:
- Waiting for chips, assembling miners straight away after arrival and starting a mining farm for GB members to recover the expected ROI while investing in the Group-Buy.
- Dividends will be paid weekly based on the number of chips owned in this GB
- Costs will only be for electricity in the first 3 months, the rest of the mined funds will be divided among the GB members. After the first 3 months, there will be the option to receive the miner or continue with the hosting for a fee of 10% out of the total BTC mined
- The hosting will evolve to a shares/contracts organization that will eventually (in the very near future) start investing in other miners as well as other technologies. The mining farm will grow and also share prices will grow.
- Members who want the bare chips can ask for them and receive them right away
- Any other questions are about any aspect are most welcomed. Please ask.

[Twh]

Ok, you're right. I'm not the one to decide and Avalon doesn't give a shit about my sent e-mail. Poll added.

I don't want to come off as someone who's never pleased and I appreciate that you are willing to make a vote now, but what you're doing now still isn't the best. For one, anyone can vote on this poll regardless of whether or not they have an order. For two, the vote should be focused solely on one thing, does the person want his chips or not, and once you know who wants to keep chips, you can ask them what they want to do with them.
I strongly recommend doing exactly what the other two group buys have been doing: send a PM to everyone involved asking them how many chips they want to keep and where to send the refund if applicable, then count the replies. I know this is more time consuming for you, but it's pretty much the only way of getting accurate results, you'll know exactly how many chips are wanted, as opposed to this poll, where someone with 1000 chips matters as much as someone with 16.

[t13hydra]

Thanks in advance for the votes: They have been changed to simple votes: Yes or No for the refund.
GB members, please check your PMs. And sorry for this tutti-frutty-upside down-black and white mix... I'm running out of patience, but still hanging in here, waiting for my chips. One thing i can promise: never do business with Avalon and BFL anyomore... I'm terribly disappointed and i think you are as well.

Thanks,
Steve