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Author Topic: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary  (Read 434693 times)
BkkCoins
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May 06, 2013, 04:59:35 PM
Last edit: May 06, 2013, 07:58:03 PM by BkkCoins
 #201

Do we have enough room to have a 2-3mm keepout zone around the edge so that we can have the option of sliding the card into an edge guide rail instead of stacking?

On 2 sides only of course. In the format your board was presented, it would be the top and bottom.
I currently have about 6mm space along top and bottom because the corner holes are there.
The first metal exposed on the holes is at 2.8mm from edge.

Stacking/mounting hole centers from each corner are at 5mm, 5mm and dia. currently 3mm.
Holes centered between ASICs are at 18.5mm, 22.5mm same 3mm dia.
See diagram posted further up for layout.

You could probably use a VGA heat sink mounted under each quadrant of 4 ASICs. The total size covering 4 ASICs is 28mm x 25mm.

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May 06, 2013, 06:57:14 PM
 #202

Some HA (high available questions). So I know I already brought up temp sensors that will shut off faulty chips and Thanks for those replies.

Secondly I was thinking today what happens when the server/computer these PCB's are plugged into via USB go down. I can see in most scenarios people will be hosting either offsite in a DC or warehouse / office or in their own home. I also see that most people (at least from what I gather) will not be watching blinking lights 24/7. Would it make sense or even possible to have 2 USBs coming from the PCB to plug into two separate computers? That way if the one machine goes down but the ASICs are still functioning, can be failed over to the secondary machine?

i.e. if You can plug in multiple Boards into several USB ports on one computer, why couldn't you plugin in one UNIT into two machines. Then you can use some sort of HA tools that are out there to failover which USB cable the device should use? Could ensure downtime is kept to a minimum when certain problems arise, like a computer crashing and not need to be physically in front of the ASIC board to physically swap out the cable. In other words an active/passive HA setup.


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May 06, 2013, 07:53:18 PM
 #203

Some HA (high available questions). So I know I already brought up temp sensors that will shut off faulty chips and Thanks for those replies.

Secondly I was thinking today what happens when the server/computer these PCB's are plugged into via USB go down. I can see in most scenarios people will be hosting either offsite in a DC or warehouse / office or in their own home. I also see that most people (at least from what I gather) will not be watching blinking lights 24/7. Would it make sense or even possible to have 2 USBs coming from the PCB to plug into two separate computers? That way if the one machine goes down but the ASICs are still functioning, can be failed over to the secondary machine?

i.e. if You can plug in multiple Boards into several USB ports on one computer, why couldn't you plugin in one UNIT into two machines. Then you can use some sort of HA tools that are out there to failover which USB cable the device should use? Could ensure downtime is kept to a minimum when certain problems arise, like a computer crashing and not need to be physically in front of the ASIC board to physically swap out the cable. In other words an active/passive HA setup.


kosta

I would like that!
Although I guess that is far outside the scope here (= getting working boards as soon as possible).
Maybe a second generation version? With high chip density too, designed for the big boys?
For now, we could maybe connect some simple embedded linux box  as an "usb-router" in betrween the klondike and hostcomputers?

Ente
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May 06, 2013, 07:57:06 PM
 #204

i.e. if You can plug in multiple Boards into several USB ports on one computer, why couldn't you plugin in one UNIT into two machines. Then you can use some sort of HA tools that are out there to failover which USB cable the device should use? Could ensure downtime is kept to a minimum when certain problems arise, like a computer crashing and not need to be physically in front of the ASIC board to physically swap out the cable. In other words an active/passive HA setup.
You can't really plug into more than one USB slot - the protocol has no support for multiple masters.

I'd suggest using a small Raspberry Pi dedicated to this task and in a situation like that the chances of it going down are very slim. You're much more likely to see power failure and net connection failure. Both of those can be accounted for with a UPS and with two net connections and linux configured to do load balancing across them. RaspPi should be able to do that too.

The closest we can come to a failover USB is to have a bunch of boards on each of two separate USB ports on two machines and then in the I2C between the boards, it does support multi-master, there is a link from one set to the other and if I add the code to the firmware they could conceivably failover from one USB master to the other. That's doable but I'm not sure I'd bother with the extra code to do it.

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May 06, 2013, 07:57:29 PM
 #205

Now that you are hoping for a few different boards, can you give so updates for cost with and without parts? I am strongly considering going in on the funded ASIC group buy, and I am just trying to figure out how many I can afford. I am not looking you to lock into a price, maybe just a ballpark. Especially for the 64 chip board you mentioned.
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May 06, 2013, 08:10:43 PM
 #206

Well, I have become convinced that raw chips and pick and placing by hand/reflowing personally would not be a good investment.

I think there are a number of folks who would be interested in the fully populated boards with Asics (and are willing to pre-order so the chips can be purchased in the upcoming chip batch sales). 

BKKCoins are you planning on offering complete with asic, 64-chip boards for sale as a pre-order?  My guess is it would be popular if sold from the source  Grin

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May 06, 2013, 08:19:20 PM
 #207

I will be building up at least 100 of the Klondike 16 boards here. About half will be for sale to any who want them. I can reflow the ASICs on the board if you like, ship without, or have the assembler do it for you if I am sent the ASICs.

If there is no interest here for them, I will just eBay them.
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May 06, 2013, 08:20:12 PM
 #208

@BkkCoins Im more of a software guy then a HW guy but is there such a thing like a Y-USB splitter cable? i.e. one USB cable with two USB plugs?

Doing a quick search I saw something like this:

http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/40sw-24100.php?utm_source=Nextag&utm_medium=cpc&zmam=54972865&zmas=1&zmac=4&zmap=40SW-24100


Would this work? If so I can do some more digging to find a USB switch that may have a CLI/web interface that could be used to automate the switch between computers in case a failover is needed.
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May 06, 2013, 08:26:51 PM
 #209

Now that you are hoping for a few different boards, can you give so updates for cost with and without parts? I am strongly considering going in on the funded ASIC group buy, and I am just trying to figure out how many I can afford. I am not looking you to lock into a price, maybe just a ballpark. Especially for the 64 chip board you mentioned.
If I had to ball park a kit price right now I'd throw out numbers like:

ALL QTY 1 --- SUBJECT TO CHANGE

(board + parts) (without ASIC, heat sink, ATX PSU, cables)
Klondike 1 - $16  (I did a design and parts list this evening, and board partly done)
Klondike 16 - $35
Klondike 64 - $100

(board only)
Klondike 1 - $6
Klondike 16 - $12
Klondike 64 - $25

PDF Assembly Manual included (hopefully). Shipping not included.

I'm not planning to get into full assembly myself except maybe for the Klondike 1 (dongle).
I will supply boards/kits at wholesale pricing to other assemblers.

BkkCoins
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May 06, 2013, 08:35:47 PM
Last edit: May 07, 2013, 01:04:27 AM by BkkCoins
 #210

Would this work? If so I can do some more digging to find a USB switch that may have a CLI/web interface that could be used to automate the switch between computers in case a failover is needed.
This may work with printers, which mostly just receive data. It wouldn't work with Klondike unless there was special code to handle it not getting totally confused by being switched between masters.

Conceivably the cgminer driver could query if the device has been idle for X seconds and take over sending work with the assumption that the other host has died. That is one host keeps asking if the other host is still active.

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May 06, 2013, 10:29:10 PM
 #211

I have been trying to figure out which standard serial comm the Avalon ASIC uses. How did you figure out it's I2C? All I have are the following info from this page: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Avalon

Chip Interface
Data Pins (8 in total):
Clock                     input
Serial Data In  [2]       input
Serial Data Out [2]       output
Serial Data Bypass [2]    output
Reserved    [1]    -

Would this be I2C? If so, which of these pins are SDA and which are SCL? There's only one clock input, and the input/output ports are separate. Would the "Serial Data In" be the SCLs?

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May 06, 2013, 11:29:06 PM
 #212

If i had about 20 avalon chips to handle for one PCB project, i would definately use 4 layer pcb.
But if it's possible to have only 5 chips per module, it would be great to have only 2 layers (for maintenance reasons) in modular connection.
I also believe that 4 layer pcb's are more sensitive and if accidentaly have a short circuit to the 2 middle layers, it would be
almost imposible to fix the damage as like 2 layer pcb. Just a thought... Smiley

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May 06, 2013, 11:32:18 PM
 #213

flyonwall
I think the I2C is for board to board communications.
I haven't seen anyone claim the ASICs use I2C.
The data sheet only says serial data.
My guess is asynchronous data like what comes out of a standard COM port.
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May 06, 2013, 11:51:47 PM
 #214

What do you mean spend 10$ for test boards?  The setup cost is usually several hundred dollars.

I can order 10pcs, 5cm x 5cm boards for $10 plus shipping.

Gotta love
http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/fusion-pcb-service-2-layers-p-835.html?cPath=185
and
http://imall.iteadstudio.com/open-pcb/pcb-prototyping/im120418001.html

I use them both fairly often..

Enigma

Any info on their turn time & shipping options?
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May 07, 2013, 12:11:36 AM
 #215

flyonwall
I think the I2C is for board to board communications.
I haven't seen anyone claim the ASICs use I2C.
The data sheet only says serial data.
My guess is asynchronous data like what comes out of a standard COM port.

Yes, they must be USARTs. If so, probably the chips are daisy-chained? (That can explain the 2 serial ports.) If not, by what manner can one USART on the mining system communicate with all the chips?

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May 07, 2013, 12:13:53 AM
 #216

My partner and I have ordered enough chips for 4 of your 64-chip boards at least. Thanks for the updates, and we are watching this thread with great anticipation!
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May 07, 2013, 01:17:34 AM
 #217

Now that you are hoping for a few different boards, can you give so updates for cost with and without parts? I am strongly considering going in on the funded ASIC group buy, and I am just trying to figure out how many I can afford. I am not looking you to lock into a price, maybe just a ballpark. Especially for the 64 chip board you mentioned.
If I had to ball park a kit price right now I'd throw out numbers like:

ALL QTY 1 --- SUBJECT TO CHANGE

(board + parts) (without ASIC, heat sink, ATX PSU, cables)
Klondike 1 - $16  (I did a design and parts list this evening, and board partly done)
Klondike 16 - $35
Klondike 64 - $100

(board only)
Klondike 1 - $6
Klondike 16 - $12
Klondike 64 - $25

PDF Assembly Manual included (hopefully). Shipping not included.

I'm not planning to get into full assembly myself except maybe for the Klondike 1 (dongle).
I will supply boards/kits at wholesale pricing to other assemblers.

if someone is interested in a distribution business, you can find people like http://www.screamingcircuits.com and http://www.sunstone.com to do your pick and place and pcb fab, respectively. With doing 100+ boards, assembly and PCB should come out to be around $50-60/board +parts for the klondike 64 (just guessing some of the specs from bkk's posts). Add in $600 worth of asics and you can make a 16 GH/s miner for ~$700. put some markup on that, might be an interesting venture.
BkkCoins
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May 07, 2013, 02:14:16 AM
 #218

if someone is interested in a distribution business, you can find people like http://www.screamingcircuits.com and http://www.sunstone.com to do your pick and place and pcb fab, respectively. With doing 100+ boards, assembly and PCB should come out to be around $50-60/board +parts for the klondike 64 (just guessing some of the specs from bkk's posts). Add in $600 worth of asics and you can make a 16 GH/s miner for ~$700. put some markup on that, might be an interesting venture.
Wow. $100 each, Qty 50, to just assemble the K16, not including parts and board making.

I'd suggest checking what sensei will be able to offer. There are several assemblers hovering me with questions and if they get something going where I ship them boards/parts and they build then I'd hope it comes in well under this.

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May 07, 2013, 02:22:38 AM
 #219

Now that you are hoping for a few different boards, can you give so updates for cost with and without parts? I am strongly considering going in on the funded ASIC group buy, and I am just trying to figure out how many I can afford. I am not looking you to lock into a price, maybe just a ballpark. Especially for the 64 chip board you mentioned.
If I had to ball park a kit price right now I'd throw out numbers like:

ALL QTY 1 --- SUBJECT TO CHANGE

(board + parts) (without ASIC, heat sink, ATX PSU, cables)
Klondike 1 - $16  (I did a design and parts list this evening, and board partly done)
Klondike 16 - $35
Klondike 64 - $100

(board only)
Klondike 1 - $6
Klondike 16 - $12
Klondike 64 - $25

PDF Assembly Manual included (hopefully). Shipping not included.

I'm not planning to get into full assembly myself except maybe for the Klondike 1 (dongle).
I will supply boards/kits at wholesale pricing to other assemblers.

if someone is interested in a distribution business, you can find people like http://www.screamingcircuits.com and http://www.sunstone.com to do your pick and place and pcb fab, respectively. With doing 100+ boards, assembly and PCB should come out to be around $50-60/board +parts for the klondike 64 (just guessing some of the specs from bkk's posts). Add in $600 worth of asics and you can make a 16 GH/s miner for ~$700. put some markup on that, might be an interesting venture.

Man, I really hope someone is working on this.  Wink

ASIC miners available for purchase

Those who serve best, profit most.
dan99
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May 07, 2013, 02:48:34 AM
 #220

Now that you are hoping for a few different boards, can you give so updates for cost with and without parts? I am strongly considering going in on the funded ASIC group buy, and I am just trying to figure out how many I can afford. I am not looking you to lock into a price, maybe just a ballpark. Especially for the 64 chip board you mentioned.
If I had to ball park a kit price right now I'd throw out numbers like:

ALL QTY 1 --- SUBJECT TO CHANGE

(board + parts) (without ASIC, heat sink, ATX PSU, cables)
Klondike 1 - $16  (I did a design and parts list this evening, and board partly done)
Klondike 16 - $35
Klondike 64 - $100

(board only)
Klondike 1 - $6
Klondike 16 - $12
Klondike 64 - $25

PDF Assembly Manual included (hopefully). Shipping not included.

I'm not planning to get into full assembly myself except maybe for the Klondike 1 (dongle).
I will supply boards/kits at wholesale pricing to other assemblers.

if someone is interested in a distribution business, you can find people like http://www.screamingcircuits.com and http://www.sunstone.com to do your pick and place and pcb fab, respectively. With doing 100+ boards, assembly and PCB should come out to be around $50-60/board +parts for the klondike 64 (just guessing some of the specs from bkk's posts). Add in $600 worth of asics and you can make a 16 GH/s miner for ~$700. put some markup on that, might be an interesting venture.

Probably he is a sales man for this  http://www.screamingcircuits.com and http://www.sunstone.com factory or DIY hobbyists?
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