Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary

[kano]

I had an idea.

What if for each PIC programmed I embed a unique address as serial#. I can write a small script to automate that using a deterministic MPK.

Then adding a burntest (sendlove) option in cgminer would use that address for the burn period (and the address is also available at any time for user donation later).

It's easy to mine to an address directly. eg. 50btc.com allows using an address as username and all share pmt goes to that address. This makes it easy to automate. If you run cgminer in burntest mode any mining is donated to the encoded test serial# address.

I calculate that a K16 @ 282 MHz would need to mine for about 2 hours to cover my fee (today, no doubt more later). So if you ran burn tests for a couple hours even I'd be getting more than my license fee.

The nice thing about this is that if I use a different MPK for each "authorized" vendor then I can always know how much has been donated by that vendor's sold units.

I could have a web page (w/vendor login) that would generate unique PIC program images on demand such that any vendor could program their own boards as they please. As long as the donation amount is more than the (units sold * fee) - I'd consider myself paid in full. And they would never have to think about sending me payment as long as they burn each unit they ship.

Thoughts?  (just figuring this out myself)

(One thing's clear from this - my design fee is trivial in comparison to how much people will earn from their rigs: 2 hours...)

FYI, the support given to cgminer is even more trivial (relatively close to zero) compared to the amount people earn using it.
The effort and support put into cgminer over the last 2 years makes most bitcoin projects pale in comparison.
Interesting that when ckolivas added a 1% optional fee into cgminer to mine for him, all hell broke loose ... so he removed it.

I wonder if this again means (as with Avalon) if we get people asking for support we tell them we can't since we wont have the hardware
and Bicknellski seems to think that us supporting Klondike through another channel is also a bad idea ...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210768.0

Although, quite clearly, the license on cgminer says you can do with it as per the GPLv3, I am, however, curious to know where you stand on the subject and leave that open to you to make that clear rather than attempting to guess

[Biomech]

Hello BKKcoins and group.

I'm not bright enough to build my own boards, so I'll be buying them off of someone when the time comes. I'm leaning towards Terrahash, though that is far from final. I do indeed think that you should be compensated generously for your work here. I like your idea regarding automating a donation, and frankly I am planning to do as others suggested and donate my first run to you.

Someone had noted that some people might bitch about the automated thing, and that is probably true, but I think those bitching are just looking for a free ride and should be told to get bent. Due to the nature of both bitcoin and the specialized technology, the window of opportunity on ASIC rigs is going to be fairly short. The developers getting screwed is simply immoral.

Keep up the good work. In my youth I built a lot of circuit boards, but now it's gone so far beyond my knowledge as to be magic. This thread has been worth paying for IN ITSELF just for the education y'all have given me. Even if I end up going with a different supplier (KNC miner is also on my "watchlist"), it is my intention to donate to this project solely on it's merit.

-Kevin

[Bicknellski]

Avalon makes a few $$ off each chip, and CKOlivas ought to make a few $$ off each miner (which I don't have the power to enforce), and I guess I should get a couple $$ for each Klondike. Eventually all my work will be free and open and anyone can use it to turn a profit mining, or selling mining rigs. And I'll move on to whatever's next.

edit: By eventually, I mean before too long. Like maybe a short while after the chips start to get to end users. That way DIYers can use it and make or buy boards, and mine.

Seems clear...

Chip in for those who contribute. I don't mind doing that when there is quid pro quo for this project and it should be especially focused toward BKKcoins.

[wrenchmonkey]

PIC16LF1459-I/SS are out of stock everywhere. Soonest lead time is 5 weeks.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/PIC16LF1459-I%2FSS/PIC16LF1459-I%2FSS-ND/3671495?enterprise=32

How much would you sell programmed PICs for?

I've been watching their supply dwindle over the last few weeks. I don't know if its' just bad timing or they actually don't make many of them due to it being pretty new, and not used in many existing designs.

I've seriously thought about making a QFN variant of the board to take advantage of that package. It wouldn't be hard and could be done after prototyping. There are lots of them still available. Note also you can use the E/SS variant but even they seem to be vanishing now. Having an QFN board variant would open up about 1800 of LF1459-I/ML currently sitting at Microchip and 6200 of F1459-x/ML that work also.

I know some users contacted me to make sure I had some for testing before placing their orders.

If someone wants to start scooping up PIC16LF1459-I/ML, then let me know. I can produce a board that uses them. There's 1881 of those on hand at Microchip.

edit:
Programmed PICs - don't know yet but the idea is $2 / board. I'd order them pre-prog. from Microchip except judging by stock it's pretty risky waiting until the firmware is fully ready. Or maybe not as it only requires the bootloader and serial# to be ready.

I would prefer to work out a downloadable binary method instead.
Maybe it could just be a fixed fee to get a pre-release "early" firmware image - based on expected production run.

Bkk, I have the ability to burn chips, but I'm located in the U.S. So if somebody wants to do an order on them, they can ship them to me, and I will burn them... I don't know if that's really helpful or not, but just wanted to offer...

[BkkCoins]

Although, quite clearly, the license on cgminer says you can do with it as per the GPLv3, I am, however, curious to know where you stand on the subject and leave that open to you to make that clear rather than attempting to guess

I haven't been following cgminer for a long time now. I'm not up on what has been happening lately, or if there is animosity over there, but I have been using it. I did contribute some code way, way back and IMO CK probably doesn't get nearly enough support for the effort he's put in over several years, and the extent to which cgminer is important to mining. I did make a note up above that I thought he deserves support but that I have no way to enforce it. What I'm exploring now is if there is a way to push Klondike through a period where support is mandatory on the way to being fully open source, where people can do whatever they like.

I haven't read the cgminer license. If there is something I'm doing that isn't allowed then let me know and I'll adapt. I have no intention of Klondike becoming close source or keeping the cgminer Klondike driver private. I think I'm allowed to create the firmware as I choose but maybe I don't know how the GPLv3 works.

Clearly everyone is very eager to get this ASAP. And I'm feeling a lot of pressure that I didn't anticipate when I started out. People are planning production runs and contacting me every day about details related to what they need to satisfy their assembly quotes. Very generous people are sending money my way to help get it all done. I'm grateful but also overwhelmed. I should probably just get off the forums and work on the code - this is a big, but also compelling, distraction. I haven't done much real work today.

[kano]

Avalon makes a few $$ off each chip, and CKOlivas ought to make a few $$ off each miner (which I don't have the power to enforce), and I guess I should get a couple $$ for each Klondike. Eventually all my work will be free and open and anyone can use it to turn a profit mining, or selling mining rigs. And I'll move on to whatever's next.

edit: By eventually, I mean before too long. Like maybe a short while after the chips start to get to end users. That way DIYers can use it and make or buy boards, and mine.

Seems clear...

Chip in for those who contribute. I don't mind doing that when there is quid pro quo for this project and it should be especially focused toward BKKcoins.

Lulz I just read your earlier post yesterday - another person who thinks that the 35,000 lines of C code in cgminer count for nothing when you use it.
I'm not surprised though.

This project "from the ground up" is not actually from the ground up on the software side, only on the firmware and hardware.

Cgminer is indeed open source, more so than any part of this project.
People are not required to pay anything in advance to use it - it is indeed free to use without any requirements other than GPLv3.

However, we as developers spend a lot of our time supporting people who buy a lot of hardware from people such as yourself.
Thus we support the hardware we have and it makes perfect sense that we cannot properly support the hardware we don't have.

What has clearly happened in the case of Avalon, is that the bug fixes and advances in cgminer since avalon came out have been slow to be implemented for the users to use.
CKolivas (in the few weeks he has had access to an Avalon, owned by someone who bought one, not in any way supplied by Avalon themselves) has resolved quite a few problems with the code in there already.
The last few avalon releases by xiangfu use ckolivas' changes to specifically resolve problems with avalon.

It does seem strange that you think I should support your hardware for free.
Not unexpected though.

However, there are companies that have in the past and do support cgminer by supplying us with hardware so that we can support it also:
Ckolivas has received a 7970 GPU in the past from forum members and thus added GCN support to cgminer
I received an Icarus over a year ago and have over that year written and rewritten the Icarus support code and supported it (and implemented the only significant gains in it since the first version)
I've received a Mod Miner Quad and wrote a complete driver for it twice (once serial-USB and once USB) and supported it since late last year.
Both myself and ckolivas have received a Jalapeno and had that supported and mining in cgminer in less than 6 hours.
Both myself and ckolivas have received a Black Arrow Lancelot and I've added support for that properly and give them links to get it already and provided support even for that already and it will be in the next cgminer release
I've received an Asicminer Block Erupter USB and cgminer code now supports that fully by default also.
I'm not quite sure where in any of that you consider that to be any issue or in any way AT ALL against the ideals of open source?
All our source for these have been available in our public gits and released in each subsequent version of cgminer.
Nothing hidden and no false or unrelated stories made up about debug code.

[marto74]

" I should probably just get off the forums and work on the code - this is a big, but also compelling, distraction. I haven't done much real work today."


I did not thought this perspective . You are right.
If you need any support just ask me  . I'll stop to write posts and PM with questions for now.
Sorry for the chasing you last few days. Just too excited to get things rolling , like most of the people around

[KS]

Avalon makes a few $$ off each chip, and CKOlivas ought to make a few $$ off each miner (which I don't have the power to enforce), and I guess I should get a couple $$ for each Klondike. Eventually all my work will be free and open and anyone can use it to turn a profit mining, or selling mining rigs. And I'll move on to whatever's next.

edit: By eventually, I mean before too long. Like maybe a short while after the chips start to get to end users. That way DIYers can use it and make or buy boards, and mine.

Seems clear...

Chip in for those who contribute. I don't mind doing that when there is quid pro quo for this project and it should be especially focused toward BKKcoins.

Lulz I just read your earlier post yesterday - another person who thinks that the 35,000 lines of C code in cgminer count for nothing when you use it.
I'm not surprised though.

This project "from the ground up" is not actually from the ground up on the software side, only on the firmware and hardware.

Cgminer is indeed open source, more so than any part of this project.
People are not required to pay anything in advance to use it - it is indeed free to use without any requirements other than GPLv3.

However, we as developers spend a lot of our time supporting people who buy a lot of hardware from people such as yourself.
Thus we support the hardware we have and it makes perfect sense that we cannot properly support the hardware we don't have.

What has clearly happened in the case of Avalon, is that the bug fixes and advances in cgminer since avalon came out have been slow to be implemented for the users to use.
CKolivas (in the few weeks he has had access to an Avalon, owned by someone who bought one, not in any way supplied by Avalon themselves) has resolved quite a few problems with the code in there already.
The last few avalon releases by xiangfu use ckolivas' changes to specifically resolve problems with avalon.

It does seem strange that you think I should support your hardware for free.
Not unexpected though.

However, there are companies that have in the past and do support cgminer by supplying us with hardware so that we can support it also:
Ckolivas has received a 7970 GPU in the past from forum members and thus added GCN support to cgminer
I received an Icarus over a year ago and have over that year written and rewritten the Icarus support code and supported it (and implemented the only significant gains in it since the first version)
I've received a Mod Miner Quad and wrote a complete driver for it twice (once serial-USB and once USB) and supported it since late last year.
Both myself and ckolivas have received a Jalapeno and had that supported and mining in cgminer in less than 6 hours.
Both myself and ckolivas have received a Black Arrow Lancelot and I've added support for that properly and give them links to get it already and provided support even for that already and it will be in the next cgminer release
I've received an Asicminer Block Erupter USB and cgminer code now supports that fully by default also.
I'm not quite sure where in any of that you consider that to be any issue or in any way AT ALL against the ideals of open source?
All our source for these have been available in our public gits and released in each subsequent version of cgminer.
Nothing hidden and no false or unrelated stories made up about debug code.

Where there is a will, there is a way, I'm sure some klondikes will find their way to you.

I was going to ask BKKCoins if he could add a little fee for CGMiner support in the burn-in firmware, we'll see what he thinkgs about it when he takes a break from his work to check this thread.

I totally agree that if we ask for your support, you guys should be rewarded for your efforts.

[ScaryHash]

You need some good alcohol this Memorial Day weekend for all your hard work.

Yes, I know you're not in the US, but anyway...sent you 0.321 BTC.

Go buy yourself some good shiznit. You've earned it.

[BkkCoins]

@kano
I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from. You sound upset about something. This project is still in development. There is no board yet, (though I've ordered some test boards now), there is no cgminer driver yet, and there is just the beginnings of firmware. It sounds like you don't want me to use cgminer as the miner software for some reason. So far I've only looked at the Avalon driver to see how that works with the Avalon. I haven't asked anyone to provide hardware support for this project and I really don't understand what you're talking about here. I know you guys have done lots of other drivers and supported other hardware. I guess you're trying to say I shouldn't expect anything from CK or you. OK. I had intended to do my own work and put it out there for others when it's ready. To me that is open source. People have been swarming around me trying to get me to release everything when I haven't even written it yet. They want to order boards and make their products to ship before the chips arrive, and I don't even have a final PCB design yet. And now you're here telling me my project isn't real open source. It will be when I release it.

[BkkCoins]

You need some good alcohol this Memorial Day weekend for all your hard work.

Yes, I know you're not in the US, but anyway...sent you 0.321 BTC.

Go buy yourself some good shiznit. You've earned it.

Hey. That's awesome. Thank you.
I'm going to put that towards the DSO. 

[Biomech]

@kano
I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from. You sound upset about something. This project is still in development. There is no board yet, (though I've ordered some test boards now), there is no cgminer driver yet, and there is just the beginnings of firmware. It sounds like you don't want me to use cgminer as the miner software for some reason. So far I've only looked at the Avalon driver to see how that works with the Avalon. I haven't asked anyone to provide hardware support for this project and I really don't understand what you're talking about here. I know you guys have done lots of other drivers and supported other hardware. I guess you're trying to say I shouldn't expect anything from CK or you. OK. I had intended to do my own work and put it out there for others when it's ready. To me that is open source. People have been swarming around me trying to get me to release everything when I haven't even written it yet. They want to order boards and make their products to ship before the chips arrive, and I don't even have a final PCB design yet. And now you're here telling me my project isn't real open source. It will be when I release it.

In context, I don't think it was directed at you. I'm new here, so I could be wrong, but it seems that Kano and a couple people involved in this thread have issues with each other. From what I've seen, jealousy because Kano got a BFL jalapeno while damn near everyone else who ordered will get theirs "in two weeks".

Me, I'm still kicking myself for not getting in on bitcoin when it first started. I was aware of it, but other things in my chaotic life caused me to forget. The missed opportunity cost me a lot, so now I'm trying to catch this wave. Your project appears to be the most likely to go to market at a reasonable cost in a reasonable time frame, so I'm watching. And as I mentioned previously, I'm gaining a lot of knowledge.

Having read both of you for a few weeks now, I think that the bickering that goes on here is just that: bickering. You and Kano seem to both be reasonable and smart people. And a bit stressed out I think you should grab that beer like a previous poster said.

[Bicknellski]

Wondering if Modular Python Bitcoin Miner would be something we could ask TheSeven to adapt for the Klondike? I do enjoy the ease of use and the consistency I get from it with the X6500's I am running. Anyone want to approach him?

[kano]

@kano
I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from. You sound upset about something. This project is still in development. There is no board yet, (though I've ordered some test boards now), there is no cgminer driver yet, and there is just the beginnings of firmware. It sounds like you don't want me to use cgminer as the miner software for some reason. So far I've only looked at the Avalon driver to see how that works with the Avalon. I haven't asked anyone to provide hardware support for this project and I really don't understand what you're talking about here. I know you guys have done lots of other drivers and supported other hardware. I guess you're trying to say I shouldn't expect anything from CK or you. OK. I had intended to do my own work and put it out there for others when it's ready. To me that is open source. People have been swarming around me trying to get me to release everything when I haven't even written it yet. They want to order boards and make their products to ship before the chips arrive, and I don't even have a final PCB design yet. And now you're here telling me my project isn't real open source. It will be when I release it.

No, my reply was directly to Bicknellski - he seems upset with my awe at BFL's ASIC chips.
So much so that when I made this post:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210768.msg2223280#msg2223280

He followed it up with a post telling them to ignore me (yes that is what he is saying)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210768.msg2240759#msg2240759

Or all in one post:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210768.msg2244437#msg2244437

[KS]

@kano + bicknellski:

Chill out please.

If some boards are required for CGMiner support, some boards will be provided. It's all too early anyway.

No one is "due" anything but there is no reason not to facilitate the group effort nor to recognize the participation of individuals. Let's just not make this into sth it's not.

Pretty please?

(copy in the other thread as well)

[BkkCoins]

Ok. I see I stepped into something I wasn't aware of. I haven't been reading much on the forums the last few weeks.

My preference would be to use cgminer. I'm familiar with it, have used it for for 2 years, and hacked on it a little before and my language of choice is C. Though I have used Python more lately it seems.

[terrahash]

After I've reached my reward target I'll release the firmware source and anyone can update to the totally open version as they like.

What is your reward target? Maybe we can all pool in to make the source open from day one. This would also give the community an opportunity to look at the code for bugs, if any. TerraHash would be happy to chip in a bigger share.

@Kano. Just because some people are willing to work for free, doesn't mean everybody else has to. Did Avalon open source their chip design? No. At least BKKcoins is willing to open source his code, and I don't see why he should not be rewarded for his work. Not trying to get into an argument with you guys, just my 2 cents.

[wrenchmonkey]

Seems to be a barroom brawl that has spilled over into this thread, so I don't want to add to it too much, but I will say this.

Kano, your efforts ARE appreciated by many, if not most. There are a few trolls who are jealous, and have an entitlement complex that makes them think you OWE them something. This forum is OVERFLOWING with trolls and self-important entitled pricks.

But it's also got some amazing talent (people like you and BKK, for example). I'm getting into the mining game a little later than some, so I don't have any bitcoin to contribute. However, I have every intention of making donations to everybody involved in this project (software AND hardware) once I'm up and mining, and encourage others to do so as well.

There have already been a few rather significant donations made to this cause, and, if a need should arise, I'm sure that some of those funds could be redirected toward getting you some hardware in order to write support for it (provided you're actually interested in doing that). BKK has already stated that he intends to write a driver, so, unless he runs into something he can't tackle, we may not even be required to call upon your services any further than we already do by using your software on a daily basis.

Regardless, support for the CGminer developers is warranted. And anybody with any sense of honor/fairness who avails themselves of it in any meaningful way should feel compelled to donate back, even if there's no 'gun to their head' or hard-coded donation schema forcing their hand.

Personally, I tend to be far more generous with voluntary donations, than mandatory (eg, I usually tip 20%, but if there's a MANDATORY 15% tip, I don't tip the difference).

Not saying that I wouldn't tip more than the target of $2/card even if it's hard-coded. And I know a lot of people don't think like me. They see "free" (gratis) and it translates in their minds to "I deserve this", and they never look back.

I guess you just have to weigh the benefits of a 'mandatory' donation for the selfish pricks, vs open donations. Will the mandatory donation put a fixed value on it for people who otherwise would have valued it higher? I don't know. But I do know that every time I've worked for free, my work has, from that point forward, been valued by MOST recipients at $0. This is why I don't fix other people's computers or cars for free anymore.

[glendall]

Kano isn't too blame here.

It is totally reasonable that he should get units for his contributions.

It's not favoritism or nepotism or what-not. He has rare useful skills which he is being equitably rewarded for having.

It's similar to how a video game company can get early free prototype video cards from NVIDIA so that they can use, promote, and program for them in advance.

BFL shipping out sample units to journalists to drum up more pre-order sales before even shipping in any reasonable quantities to very old orders -- that's different imho, and not as easily justifiable.

[erschiessen]

Bkk,

I have said it before, but I will say it again... especially in light of the o-scope a couple of pages back.

If you need anything, please let me know.
I would have purchased the oscilliscope and had it shipped to you.

I am BTC poor, but I am doing okay with fiat.

I want to help, I only need to know how.