Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary

[torzsy]

´thank you. One thing, can you have a small border around the board 5mm? with such a border it is much easier for assembly lines or something like a pulling border?

There is almost that now but there are a few parts within 5mm of the edge. Not sure about that as I didn't really design it for automated assembly lines (something which I know nothing about). I suppose you could use a slightly bigger board size.

As I asked several companies for manual / automatic assembly (EU), most of them said they would do only manual assembly because of the very small (0402) components. However there are larger companies can do automatic assembly, but you have to order 1000+ boards and pay for the programming and assembly line setup about 1500 USD!

Imho below 100 boards manual assembly is the first option, however its more expensive.

Hi,

I have a company I have worked with for automated doing with small series from 1 to 200 normally.
normal price for a prototype board is 400€ for the pattern and then the price vary on how much and what components are used.
For example a Ztex Licence Production without the fpga chips (quantity orderd 25) 70€ per Board excl. VAT and when you want 1 > 250€ (I have done it last year)

Example calculate for 1 Prototype:
1. 400€
2. 250€
3. Avalon AsicChips (1-16)*7€
4. PCB Board: ~10€ (plus initial costs 50€)
5. Heatsink 10€
~ 850€ excl. VAT

mass production (from 25++) price for 1 Board inclusive asic chips:
1. 70€
2. Asics: (16) ~112€
3. cooler/heatsink 10€
3. PCB: 10€
~200€ excl. VAT

so 4.5gh/s should be possible with 2.5 BTC :-) or in € 45€ / gh/s

Please Note this is only a calculation the endprice will vary.

Posted in another thread, I think this should be here.


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For European Union.


I asked several assembly companies. Finally I got one cheap and realible offer for manual assembly: ~ 110 USD, 10 days. This is for very small amount of boards, asked them to assembly 2 PCBs. When we order 100+ the price can go lower.

The companies I asked can only assembly the boards manually, because of the really small packaging of the components (0402 capacitors and thermistors).


1x K16 miner price would be:

16x Avalon chips: ~ 151 USD (based on 16 x 0.086 BTC x 110 USD)
1x K16 board: ~ 9 USD (based on current https://github.com/bkkcoins/klondike/blob/master/docs/K16%20Parts%20List.pdf)
K16 parts: ~ 33.74 USD
Manual assembly: 110 USD (incl. VAT)

Summary: ~ 303.74 USD
4.5 GH / sec hashing power for this price.

Please note: this is for ONE board assembly with 16x chips without delivery costs for EU.

[KS]

So that's about 25% more, without shipping and import levies.

[funkmunk30]

If you are going to offer stencils, it would probably be helpful to people to include the location of any through holes to use as alignment makers.  That way people without a Stencil8 or similar setup wont have to fiddle to much with aligning their boards.

[sensei]

I saw a vendor selling stencils for $50, but I assumed they were steel. Steel stencils are the only ones I've ever seen. So possibly they were mylar or something else. Seems expensive for mylar though. Is that what non-steel stencils are made of?

[torzsy]

So that's about 25% more, without shipping and import levies.

"Please note: this is for ONE board assembly with 16x chips without delivery costs for EU." Its only a prototype price.

[funkmunk30]

I saw a vendor selling stencils for $50, but I assumed they were steel. Steel stencils are the only ones I've ever seen. So possibly they were mylar or something else. Seems expensive for mylar though. Is that what non-steel stencils are made of?

They can make them out of a nylon screen sort of like a silk screen for t-shirt printing. That type needs a wood or metal frame and the screen with the stencil you want to use is stretched and attached to the frame.  You either manually align the screen and board or use a machine that holds the board and screen in alignment

[BkkCoins]

I saw a vendor selling stencils for $50, but I assumed they were steel. Steel stencils are the only ones I've ever seen. So possibly they were mylar or something else. Seems expensive for mylar though. Is that what non-steel stencils are made of?

Sometimes they use Kaplon or Mylar cut by laser. Not sure of benefits of one over the other. But the cheap one I saw was a polyethylene synthetic paper, which apparently works also and was cut by regular vinyl cutter.

I've seen Kaplon/Mylar ones for $35 on some US site, and the synthetic paper one was $10.

[KS]

So that's about 25% more, without shipping and import levies.

"Please note: this is for ONE board assembly with 16x chips without delivery costs for EU." Its only a prototype price.

Yes ONE, but I don't suppose you'll get "singles" orders. What would be the price for 25+ ?

[evilscoop]

* evilscoop pokes ks

it'll be cheaper on bulk through one of the assembly threads, thats for sure

[KS]

* evilscoop pokes ks

it'll be cheaper on bulk through one of the assembly threads, thats for sure

Just need 10K chips now...

[evilscoop]

dont we all m8 lol

[Chefnet]

That seems good.

If there are many local options like this then the real savings in time and shipping / import taxes will be where these DIY avalons will beat the competition. No more waiting in a pre-order limbo either. Also if you can add reflow for the asics to that with heat sink let people get their own PSU I think you will see more people opt for this method.

Price comparable and time is lessened which makes all the difference. What I am keen on is January 2014 when I bet something gets unveiled... heck maybe even a small hint at the bitcoin conference from Avalon might even happen.

So will you be do this Chefnet or are you just giving everyone idea on prices?

yes I want to do so, but I have to do some crowdfunding for the initial costs (prototype) or we do it together.
With this method compared to the manual one we will have a very high quality. The other + point is all is done via a company and there will be an invoice with/out vat what make guarentee easier.

Normal time for a prototype is 2 -4 weeks because of the distributors and the inital pattern. after that it depends on the time for the assembler and the ordered pieces for the board.

[torzsy]

So that's about 25% more, without shipping and import levies.

"Please note: this is for ONE board assembly with 16x chips without delivery costs for EU." Its only a prototype price.

Yes ONE, but I don't suppose you'll get "singles" orders. What would be the price for 25+ ?

Just have asked the team. Waiting for reply.

[TomKeddie]

I can't install KiCad and check the layout right now, will in the next few days.

Was wondering about bringing the power and control to each ASIC though cuttable traces so people can bypass/isolate dead chips?  Or in pairs perhaps?

[SebastianJu]

I want to see you rewarded. I think the ultimate test would be the sample miner anyway. But i think the sample chips will be a few only, so probably you need to think about how to test a board with only some chips on it.

I think I've figured out how to make the board auto-detect how many chips are installed. At this time I believe you'll be able to have anywhere from 1 to 16 chips on a board and it will mine with whatever is present. This kind of depends on the protocol specs coming soon, but if things go as I expect then this will be possible, and I'll write the code to support this functionality so that people can install more chips as they get them.

Also, the I2C daisy chain will auto-detect how many boards are connected. I've got that worked out regardless of Avalon specs.

( As an aside, I'd like to know if using silver epoxy solder available at some electronics shops is viable for on the fly upgrades. It may be easy to paint a little bit on the QFN tabs and then carefully place and hold until hardened. My question would be heat transfer - whether silver/epoxy will conduct enough heat? )

Have updated original post now.

*g* Great news... your design gets more and more perfect.

We would need solder stencils with and without the ASICs in place as I bet a fair number of boards will be assembled without the ASICs and it would be better when placing the ASICs on unpopulated boards to have clean pads instead of solder puddled up on the pads.

When I get further along I'll be testing my computer cutter with synthetic papers to make stencils. I've had this thing for a couple years and never used it hardly. I have read online this works quite well for short runs, and at least one vendor sells this type for $10 each. Real stencils (steel) are quite expensive and would be worthwhile for someone doing a larger assembly run (these can be had for $70 in China).

With this cutter method you use postscript output to create the stencil so I can provide such a file with/without ASICs later on github. If this cutting method works well enough then I'll either include a stencil with each kit order or make it an optional item for a low added cost. A stencil without ASICs could have a separate footprint of a single ASIC to be used individually.

Would be really cool if that works out. The stencil is one of the things i worry about.

Since you already will place big orders of parts... can you imagine to check out a passive cooling solution for the boards? So that in case a customer wants to go the easy way he can buy the cooling from you? I guess you would be in the best position to lower the prices through mass-order. I can imagine 4 cooling parts for 4 chips each... putting them on top of the chips or on the other side of the pcb when this is better.

Zefirs first batch was bought on april 16th. 4 weeks after he should get the sample chips. A week later you probably will get sample chips for testing. Hm... in fact 4 weeks were over yesterday... i hope the samples arent delayed much longer.
Anyway... in case you get the chips, you test the boards maybe a week, testing, tweaking and so on... and when its ready you order the pcb and the parts. Can you already say how long it will take to produce the pcbs and receive the parts so that you can ship them? Its only that i need to save bitcoins for that time then.
Or maybe you plan to collect the bitcoins before? In this case... when will you start collecting?

[mike2kt]

...

Since you already will place big orders of parts... can you imagine to check out a passive cooling solution for the boards? So that in case a customer wants to go the easy way he can buy the cooling from you? I guess you would be in the best position to lower the prices through mass-order. I can imagine 4 cooling parts for 4 chips each... putting them on top of the chips or on the other side of the pcb when this is better.

...

Sebastian  -  All good points! I just wanted to make a clarification about the heatsinks. These ASICs dissipate their heat from the under side of the ASIC. Direct word from Avalon is that a heatsink should NOT be placed on the top of the ASIC (even with an under-mount heatsink). Has to do with the internal structure/air gap/some-such. This information is posted somewhere...I just don’t have time to go hunting for it right now.

[tuxfool]

Sometimes they use Kaplon or Mylar cut by laser. Not sure of benefits of one over the other. But the cheap one I saw was a polyethylene synthetic paper, which apparently works also and was cut by regular vinyl cutter.

I've seen Kaplon/Mylar ones for $35 on some US site, and the synthetic paper one was $10.

Kapton has a very high melting point and as a result when cut with a laser it doesn't warp as easily, making it a better stencil. I have reballed BGAs using a Kapton stencil to keep the balls in place when applying heat.

[miztic]

Phew, I'm finally able to post in other places then the n00b forum.

I would be interested in having an assembly company build a few boards for me in the US (sensei's guys?) depending on how much they charge.
it seems like I would be able to assemble my own boards pretty easily either from a kit or from parts ordered from digikey or somewhere like that directly. I've been watching smt soldering tutorials and reading what I can, seems like it's something a home user can handle, although you probably don't want to build too many boards before it becomes tedious.

I guess I better jump on an avalon group buy and try to grab say 64 chips.

Nice work BKK, your efforts are appreciated.

[freedomno1]

Sounds interesting keeps watching 

[r3animation]

Perhaps BKKcoins can recommend someone from his country?

I'm assuming assembly in Thailand would be ALOT cheaper then in the US or EU.