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Author Topic: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary  (Read 434691 times)
Bicknellski
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May 14, 2013, 04:48:53 AM
 #541

BKKcoins can we get a little house keeping on the original post so that it reflects the progress you've made and cost of boards what is and isn't included in the price etc? That way we can point people to the revisions.

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May 14, 2013, 08:22:26 AM
 #542

While i see the videos about stencils and soldering paste... will the stencils be in the package? I mean i wont know what stencil i have to buy. In fact i dont even understand why you do it this way. I mean one could put a bit soldering paste in the middle of the chip and should get similar results isnt it? Similar to using thermal compound. And that its don on both sides? I wonder if it isnt enough to put soldering paste to one side only.
Now i see the question was asked already, but not answered. Stencil included for the whole board or only one chip. Or included at all. I think creating one single stencil will cost, but in bigger quantities it will be less pricy i guess. But when i read that a small stencil costs $11 already...

And to get it more clear... the chips are soldered with soldering paste and the capacitors (and similar things) are soldered with an soldering iron?

I thought about how to run the miner. I came up with raspberry pi but after investigating it a bit it looks like a raspberry only can run when powered by a usb. Its possible to run it through the house power grid when using an adapter for usb.
I wonder how good it would work with the raspberry. Anyone wants to use such thing too? Or maybe an old notebook is better.



You have to make a stencil for the PCBs. For the QFN 48 there are some available. I plan on getting the stencils made to specifications from BKKcoins kicad drawings. Again if you are not sure what you are doing not worked even with a soldering iron before I bet your best bet would be to find a shop to do this sort of work for you. Take the chips and boards to someone else.

The stencils are something I was thinking of using. This is not included in the kit that BKKcoins is planning I think. If someone can come up with a supplier for this then you can purchase this separately. But again... do you plan on doing this DIY? If you are then you need to be reading the specifications, data sheets and getting some equipment lined up to do this. Otherwise DO NOT DO IT YOURSELF.

I used a soldering iron in the past, including soldering paste and tin solder... of course this looks like the first grade in soldering. I didnt use an oven yet for soldering.
When i see the videos im pretty sure i can handle the DIY.

I really would prefer if there would be stencil available too directly from BKKCoins. I mean there could be created one big stencil that serves all chips that has to be soldered right? And bkkcoins would be in the position to create a bunch of it for very low cost, while private persons would have a hard time to do the same. So if possible bkkcoins, please think about this. I would pay what it needs.

Im not sure how many chips i will have at the end... maybe i will check out if i can help somewhere. Because i think one of these plates will take some time too, to be created. But i think ill give it a try on my own too... and i think youre right... i will buy 2 sets on top in case im not as good as i thought and im crashing something. But normally i have good hands for diy in general. So i think the stencil is, with the oven, my biggest doubt. Everything else will need information on how to do, what to do and so on.

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May 14, 2013, 08:58:21 AM
 #543

Please forgive my ignorance but have we got the final schematics to work with? Or just the PCB board gerber file?

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loshia
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May 14, 2013, 09:23:30 AM
 #544

Please forgive my ignorance but have we got the final schematics to work with? Or just the PCB board gerber file?
As long as i know we still do not have them. Bkk will build demo pcb first solder the chips test it with FW mininig and tweak it if something went wrong. After that we will have them.
Bkk can comment it also but that should be right way to go as long as he is not making just clone of Avalon PCB but designing it from scratch. Providing final schematics in the moment will be like "shooting in the dark" Wink

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BkkCoins
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May 14, 2013, 10:01:58 AM
 #545

BKKcoins can we get a little house keeping on the original post so that it reflects the progress you've made and cost of boards what is and isn't included in the price etc? That way we can point people to the revisions.

I'll try to get that updated soon. Same with my github readme. Too much to do.

~~~~~~~

I'm in the process of tidying up the silkscreen layer now, and trying to make it more readable. That means deleting most of the junk on there. I haven't changed the thermal vias grid yet, or done ground stitching but other than that all tracks are run. The design rule checks are clear.

The parts list has been updated again. New parts added and double checked against the BOM spit out by Kicad. Also for first time the K1 Nano parts list is uploaded. There's a couple alternate parts listed now as well.

I'm really debating myself about when to upload the schematic and PCB design files. I want to share and get feedback, but at the same time I'm worried that someone will take them pre-maturely and think they're going to make a product before I even have a chance to finish the work. I really don't want to hear of 1000 boards being made and then be blamed when it doesn't work. This thing is still being developed, and I'm moving as fast as I can.

~~~~~~~
Now - here is a couple new images to soak up.

Just looks the same almost but the next one shows you what's new under the hood.



I think this one looks pretty cool - like a city of parts with the waterworks showing.






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May 14, 2013, 10:33:17 AM
 #546

I'm really debating myself about when to upload the schematic and PCB design files. I want to share and get feedback, but at the same time I'm worried that someone will take them pre-maturely and think they're going to make a product before I even have a chance to finish the work. I really don't want to hear of 1000 boards being made and then be blamed when it doesn't work. This thing is still being developed, and I'm moving as fast as I can.

Dont overdo it... and when you decide to share it for feedback, simply write to it that its an untested design. If someone is foolish enough to build the pcb with it and it doesnt work afterwards you warned about it before.
Is the avalon reference already this far that you know exactly how the chips communicate? So that you can finish the board theoretically and only has to build it to check that it works?

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BkkCoins
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May 14, 2013, 10:54:00 AM
 #547

I'm really debating myself about when to upload the schematic and PCB design files. I want to share and get feedback, but at the same time I'm worried that someone will take them pre-maturely and think they're going to make a product before I even have a chance to finish the work. I really don't want to hear of 1000 boards being made and then be blamed when it doesn't work. This thing is still being developed, and I'm moving as fast as I can.

Dont overdo it... and when you decide to share it for feedback, simply write to it that its an untested design. If someone is foolish enough to build the pcb with it and it doesnt work afterwards you warned about it before.
Is the avalon reference already this far that you know exactly how the chips communicate? So that you can finish the board theoretically and only has to build it to check that it works?
No. I've made assumptions here that may require changes when the protocol docs come out. I wouldn't make the first boards without knowing the full specs.

I can use the waiting time to double check the design files and verify all the parts footprints match the datasheets. These kind of things can really mess up. Almost all the footprints are my own but it's very possible for mistakes to occur.


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May 14, 2013, 11:00:24 AM
 #548

I'm really debating myself about when to upload the schematic and PCB design files. I want to share and get feedback, but at the same time I'm worried that someone will take them pre-maturely and think they're going to make a product before I even have a chance to finish the work. I really don't want to hear of 1000 boards being made and then be blamed when it doesn't work. This thing is still being developed, and I'm moving as fast as I can.

Dont overdo it... and when you decide to share it for feedback, simply write to it that its an untested design. If someone is foolish enough to build the pcb with it and it doesnt work afterwards you warned about it before.
Is the avalon reference already this far that you know exactly how the chips communicate? So that you can finish the board theoretically and only has to build it to check that it works?
No. I've made assumptions here that may require changes when the protocol docs come out. I wouldn't make the first boards without knowing the full specs.

I can use the waiting time to double check the design files and verify all the parts footprints match the datasheets. These kind of things can really mess up. Almost all the footprints are my own but it's very possible for mistakes to occur.

Thank you for doing this all... i hope you will make some bitcoins with your work... Smiley

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Chefnet
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May 14, 2013, 11:08:51 AM
 #549

´thank you. One thing, can you have a small border around the board 5mm? with such a border it is much easier for assembly lines or something like a pulling border?

BkkCoins
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May 14, 2013, 12:10:22 PM
 #550

´thank you. One thing, can you have a small border around the board 5mm? with such a border it is much easier for assembly lines or something like a pulling border?
There is almost that now but there are a few parts within 5mm of the edge. Not sure about that as I didn't really design it for automated assembly lines (something which I know nothing about). I suppose you could use a slightly bigger board size.

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May 14, 2013, 12:48:49 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2013, 03:50:46 PM by Bicknellski
 #551

´thank you. One thing, can you have a small border around the board 5mm? with such a border it is much easier for assembly lines or something like a pulling border?
There is almost that now but there are a few parts within 5mm of the edge. Not sure about that as I didn't really design it for automated assembly lines (something which I know nothing about). I suppose you could use a slightly bigger board size.

1. Easy to add 2.5mm to the edges to get 105mm x 105mm around is best suggestion for those needing manufacturing clearance.
2. I think you should limit your designs as much as possible until you are good and ready and have a prototype you are happy to release.
3. Take your time on the update to the first post spend whatever time you need on the important stuff we can point to the posts in the thread if people need clarification for now.
4. NICE looking boards... compact... 4.5GH/s monster that will be 32W!!! Meow!

THANK - YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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barrywu2013
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May 14, 2013, 02:35:21 PM
 #552

Can I pay through Visa?

I don't have much BTC Cheesy

Thanks!
wrenchmonkey
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May 14, 2013, 02:44:46 PM
 #553

´thank you. One thing, can you have a small border around the board 5mm? with such a border it is much easier for assembly lines or something like a pulling border?
There is almost that now but there are a few parts within 5mm of the edge. Not sure about that as I didn't really design it for automated assembly lines (something which I know nothing about). I suppose you could use a slightly bigger board size.

1. Easy to add 5mm to the edges to get 105mm x 105mm around is best suggestion for those needing manufacturing clearance.
2. I think you should limit you designs as much as possible until you are good and ready and have a prototype you are happy to release.
3. Take you time on the update to the first post spend whatever time you need on the important stuff we can point to the posts in the thread if people need clarification for now.
4. NICE looking boards... compact... 4.5GH/s monster that will be 32W!!! Meow!

THANK - YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Adding 5mm to all sides of a 100mm board would be 110mm. Wink

I agree with others, Burnin'. I wouldn't post anything until you're sure it's actually ready. Personally, I think you should hang onto the prints for long enough to make sure that you get paid for your work, before somebody else swoops in and steals it, and starts selling boards from underneath you. I think you deserve to at least have a decent head start on selling boards before everybody else.

If I were in your position, I would finalize plans, run a group buy/order of assembled boards (minus chips) done by an assembly shop, sell them to anybody who wants them, and then release the prints to the public something like 2 weeks after you've shipped boards to those who ordered.

This gives you a window to recoup some money for your efforts, and gives people an incentive to order through you, while allowing people to chose other routes if they're willing to wait a little longer, in order to be cheapskates. In addition, if you don't feel like dealing with organizing the assembly and shipping, you could license your plans (with a non-disclosure agreement) to a few people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits while they produce and sell the boards, and again, hold back the plans for public release for a set window of time.

I'm all about the open source, but I believe you deserve the opportunity to make a return for all your hard work. Regardless of how you work it, I'll be sending donations to you as well (in addition to whatever I have to pay to get your boards), once I am up and mining Bitcoin. Smiley

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SebastianJu
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May 14, 2013, 02:48:45 PM
 #554

Can I pay through Visa?

I don't have much BTC Cheesy

Thanks!

I wouldnt take it, CC's are possible to chargeback. I had this in my shop a couple of times through paypal. PP didnt had a chance against the CC-Companies then.

´thank you. One thing, can you have a small border around the board 5mm? with such a border it is much easier for assembly lines or something like a pulling border?
There is almost that now but there are a few parts within 5mm of the edge. Not sure about that as I didn't really design it for automated assembly lines (something which I know nothing about). I suppose you could use a slightly bigger board size.

1. Easy to add 5mm to the edges to get 105mm x 105mm around is best suggestion for those needing manufacturing clearance.
2. I think you should limit you designs as much as possible until you are good and ready and have a prototype you are happy to release.
3. Take you time on the update to the first post spend whatever time you need on the important stuff we can point to the posts in the thread if people need clarification for now.
4. NICE looking boards... compact... 4.5GH/s monster that will be 32W!!! Meow!

THANK - YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Adding 5mm to all sides of a 100mm board would be 110mm. Wink

I agree with others, Burnin'. I wouldn't post anything until you're sure it's actually ready. Personally, I think you should hang onto the prints for long enough to make sure that you get paid for your work, before somebody else swoops in and steals it, and starts selling boards from underneath you. I think you deserve to at least have a decent head start on selling boards before everybody else.

If I were in your position, I would finalize plans, run a group buy/order of assembled boards (minus chips) done by an assembly shop, sell them to anybody who wants them, and then release the prints to the public something like 2 weeks after you've shipped boards to those who ordered.

This gives you a window to recoup some money for your efforts, and gives people an incentive to order through you, while allowing people to chose other routes if they're willing to wait a little longer, in order to be cheapskates. In addition, if you don't feel like dealing with organizing the assembly and shipping, you could license your plans (with a non-disclosure agreement) to a few people who are willing to give you a cut of the profits while they produce and sell the boards, and again, hold back the plans for public release for a set window of time.

I'm all about the open source, but I believe you deserve the opportunity to make a return for all your hard work. Regardless of how you work it, I'll be sending donations to you as well (in addition to whatever I have to pay to get your boards), once I am up and mining Bitcoin. Smiley

+1

I want to see you rewarded. I think the ultimate test would be the sample miner anyway. But i think the sample chips will be a few only, so probably you need to think about how to test a board with only some chips on it.

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BkkCoins
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May 14, 2013, 03:10:59 PM
 #555

I want to see you rewarded. I think the ultimate test would be the sample miner anyway. But i think the sample chips will be a few only, so probably you need to think about how to test a board with only some chips on it.
I think I've figured out how to make the board auto-detect how many chips are installed. At this time I believe you'll be able to have anywhere from 1 to 16 chips on a board and it will mine with whatever is present. This kind of depends on the protocol specs coming soon, but if things go as I expect then this will be possible, and I'll write the code to support this functionality so that people can install more chips as they get them.

Also, the I2C daisy chain will auto-detect how many boards are connected. I've got that worked out regardless of Avalon specs. Smiley

( As an aside, I'd like to know if using silver epoxy solder available at some electronics shops is viable for on the fly upgrades. It may be easy to paint a little bit on the QFN tabs and then carefully place and hold until hardened. My question would be heat transfer - whether silver/epoxy will conduct enough heat? )

Have updated original post now.

Bicknellski
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May 14, 2013, 03:46:03 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2013, 04:12:58 PM by Bicknellski
 #556

That is huge news... your boards if they work will have more functionality than the avalon itself. Just buy a few more chips reflow them on the board and volia more hash power.

Have you heard about these boards? http://blog.pnconline.com/?p=76

Would they help with heat issues?

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May 14, 2013, 04:46:12 PM
 #557

Great progress, thanks!

Perhaps you should consider taking on a partner for the software work so you can focus on the electronics?

I haven't seen much on heatsink selection recently.  I'm wondering about the hole pattern and which heatsink it is designed for?

If possible, it might be worth putting 5 holes per quad (outside corners and center).  Those of us using heat pads will benefit from the compression. This would also allow people to use 4 heatsinks instead of 1.

You might also consider taking the design to a fab shop and getting DFM feedback on stuff like component clearances etc.

*edit* actually, thinking aloud, it is worth buying some other random chip in the same package as the avalon and having a run done to check on issues like this?

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May 14, 2013, 05:45:38 PM
 #558

Are there any tracks passing from the under side of asic chips placement? If not why don't we use my cooling idea?
http://mining-bitcoins.co/simple-cooling-idea-for-klondike-project/

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May 14, 2013, 05:55:07 PM
 #559

an aside, I'd like to know if using silver epoxy solder available at some electronics shops is viable for on the fly upgrades. It may be easy to paint a little bit on the QFN tabs and then carefully place and hold until hardened. My question would be heat transfer - whether silver/epoxy will conduct enough heat? )

Have updated original post now.

http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/adhesives/electrically-conductive/silver-conductive-epoxy-8331/
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May 14, 2013, 07:32:32 PM
 #560

1. Easy to add 2.5mm to the edges to get 105mm x 105mm around is best suggestion for those needing manufacturing clearance.

Not sure I like this idea.  Lots of cheap board places offer fixed sizes, once we exceed 10x10 the price will go up.

eg. http://imall.iteadstudio.com/open-pcb/pcb-prototyping/im120418009.html

Actually I think it would be smart to fund a run of two layer sample boards so that the assembly can be tested early.  This would allow us to build mechanical prototypes to check the heatsink attachement etc.  Bkk send me a PM if you want me to help with this.
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