Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[Xian01]

TL;DR: Josh "Inaba" Zerlan, COO of Butterfly Labs, taunts Bitcointalk forum members. I call him out on his behavior in an incendiary fashion. He tells Jody to cancel my orders (#s 2030, 2158 & 100033486). Check posting history (links @ end of thread). Is this the kind of company you want to be doing business with in America ?

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EDIT: Jun.2.2013: Another lie

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3026-forced-refunds.html#post37336

"BFL_Josh BFL is not doing forced refunds on anyone. Whoever you purchased through is lying to you."

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 I've never felt this abused as a customer before. Filed a complaint with the Missouri AG Customer Complaints dept and the FTC Complaints Dept. Provided a Paypal address to office@bfl to get refunded for $4,698 (edit: refund processed)

Sorry for getting all fired up like that, forum-denizens. I hit a frustration limit I've never experienced before when purchasing products, and way overreacted.

Lessons learned, if I'm going to be critical of a company I plan to do business with, I should probably choose a moniker that they can't trace back to their customer database.

If you are a former, or current customer of Butterfly Labs, and are disgruntled and fed up with how they have conducted themselves over the last year, I would urge you to contact the following agencies and filing formal complaints.

The more light we shed on Butterfly Labs' business practices, the more chance we have to effect positive change and hold them to anything resembling responsible accountability to their customers.

• https://www.consumer.ago.mo.gov/ - Missouri Attorney General Customer Complaints Deptartment
• https://econsumer.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ - Federal Trade Commission Customer Complaint form

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0 - "Butterfly Labs CEO 25 Million USD Mail Fraud — A Concise Summary of Evidence" is a good thread highlighting historical issues with Butterfly Labs' officers that should document concerns and facts.

I would urge you to not openly complain on these forums if there is any way Butterfly Labs can trace it back to your orders with them. They have demonstrated a will to punitively cancel and refund orders.

Finally, I would be lying if I didn't have a slight concern of someone affiliated with BFL showing up on my doorstep and confronting me for creating this thread, seeing as how they know where I live, given their checkered history. But lets just hope that's my paranoia kicking in.

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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181098.msg1897893#msg1897893

Inaba @ April 20, 2013, 05:06:30 PM: "BFL has given up on Bitcointalk, so don't expect any official communication from BFL here."

vs

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=206304.msg2228269#msg2228269

Inaba @ May.21.2013 @  05:49:33 PM : "4 @ 5.75"

Spending ~$2,881.90 to advertise on a forum that they have "given up on" is the textbook definition of cognitive dissonance.

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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119338.0

An unpaid bet of 1,000 BTC still remains over BFL missing their power consumption by at least a factor of 5, with no movement being made to honor the charity donation. The unpaid bet has resulted in calls for Inaba to be branded with a Scammer tag.

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Similar experience - "I was just banned from BFL forums" - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214250.0

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Quick Link Inaba posting history : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8198;sa=showPosts
Quick Link Xian posting history: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=58223;sa=showPosts

[ThatDGuy]

Could we get some more context around this?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

On May 16, 2013, at 12:46 PM, Butterfly Labs Inc wrote:

Dear Christian,

It has been relayed to me that you are unhappy with our company and I was asked to cancel your orders. If you would send me a PayPal address I will send your money back to you ASAP.

Jody
BF Labs, Inc.

Is jody assuming you paid via PayPal, or did you pay via Bitcoin and she wants to refund via A PayPal address? Why didn't she state "your" instead of "a"? And wouldn't she have said address on file? Hell, your file should be on her screen when she made the reply. Then again perhaps when I turn 63 in 10 years, I too will be making dump errors, but hopefully I will be getting paid for them as well.

[therustytrombone]

What a piece of shit company.

[wrenchmonkey]

Could we get some more context around this?

Look at his post history. All he seems to do is bitch and moan about BFL. Suddenly he has "faith" that they'll deliver? Where was his faith in all his posts calling them thieves and calling into question an owner's criminal record and questioning their moral characters?

I hope they boot his ass right out into permanent-refuned land, and start swinging the ban hammer hard and fast at all the trolls like him. If you don't like the company, don't place orders with them. End of story. Full Stop.

[Xian01]

All he seems to do is bitch and moan about BFL. Suddenly he has "faith" that they'll deliver?

 Let me stop you right there. If I did not have faith they would not ship, I would have asked for a refund on my orders long ago instead of placing TWO ADDITIONAL orders for product this year.

 Furthermore, am I not justified to bitch-and-moan about waiting 11 months and having to endure one broken promise after another about this entire development process ?!

 So their answer is "This customer is upset because we can't provide accurate information. Lets fire them because they are manifesting their frustration at our inability to ship the product they have asked and paid for"

 I'm just hoping this all gets resolved as a "misunderstanding" and my orders are reinstated posthaste. I really don't want to escalate this and take the next steps to protect my investment.

[wrenchmonkey]

You even attacked Kano for getting a developer unit, so that he would write the code that will allow these things to mine, and acted like he was doing something wrong for having a unit to work on.

You're bitter, angry, and frustrated. I get it. 11 months is a long time to wait. Lots of people are frustrated with the wait. But trashing a company and alluding to them having no morals, being scammers, etc, etc, ad nauseum is pretty hypocritical coming from somebody who suddenly "has faith" in the company, once he realizes his balls are about to get slammed with the ban hammer.

You have every right to complain. And BFL has every right to go ahead and relieve you of your anxiety by offering a prompt and complete refund, and give your spot in line to somebody else who isn't sketching out like a crack addict who accuses his dealer of being a cop every 30 seconds.

[baloo_kiev]

It has been relayed to me...

What a level of professionalism!

[pikeadz]

Apparently BFL has now entered the business of... reading minds!  

Don't bother asking for refunds people.  They already know which of you want them and which of you don't.  Those of you who do will be automatically refunded, even if you don't know it yet.  What customer service!

[wrenchmonkey]

Apparently BFL has now entered the business of... reading minds!  

Don't bother asking for refunds people.  They already know which of you want them and which of you don't.  Those of you who do will be automatically refunded, even if you don't know it yet.  What customer service!

"Mind readers"? Nope, how about just "readers"? You think that the crap you plaster all over the internet isn't available for them to read as well? They don't have to read his mind, they just have to read what he wrote.

Is she wrong that he's "Unhappy with the company"? Everything I've seen him post leads me to agree with that assessment. Normal people don't talk shit about companies that they're happy with.

[Xian01]

You have every right to complain. And BFL has every right to go ahead and relieve you of your anxiety by offering a prompt and complete refund

I need to humbly disagree with you on this point. A punitive refund is mind-boggling.

Furthermore, what do you mean by "suddenly having faith" ? If I didn't have faith, I would have asked for a refund to begin with.

[pikeadz]

Apparently BFL has now entered the business of... reading minds!  

Don't bother asking for refunds people.  They already know which of you want them and which of you don't.  Those of you who do will be automatically refunded, even if you don't know it yet.  What customer service!

"Mind readers"? Nope, how about just "readers"? You think that the crap you plaster all over the internet isn't available for them to read as well? They don't have to read his mind, they just have to read what he wrote.

Is she wrong that he's "Unhappy with the company"? Everything I've seen him post leads me to agree with that assessment. Normal people don't talk shit about companies that they're happy with.

This all stinks of a company that is trying to censor their customers from interfering with their steady supply of preorder money.  They can keep the stench under wraps from current customers.  Luckily, I am not a customer and have nothing to fear by pointing out what stockholm syndrome has blinded all of you to.  BFL is a scam that is bleeding money every day, and will go bankrupt within a few months.  Good luck getting your vaporware!

[wtfvanity]

It has been relayed to me that you are unhappy with our company...

If I paid 11 months ago for my order, I would be very unhappy too. That wouldn't mean that I want a refund, unless it's the original BTC as paid with the first few orders. A refund around January, still would suck, but at this point the only thing I'm sure you're praying for is you'll still get it early enough to have a rat's chance in hell of getting a portion of what you paid in BTC back.

[wrenchmonkey]

Apparently BFL has now entered the business of... reading minds!  

Don't bother asking for refunds people.  They already know which of you want them and which of you don't.  Those of you who do will be automatically refunded, even if you don't know it yet.  What customer service!

"Mind readers"? Nope, how about just "readers"? You think that the crap you plaster all over the internet isn't available for them to read as well? They don't have to read his mind, they just have to read what he wrote.

Is she wrong that he's "Unhappy with the company"? Everything I've seen him post leads me to agree with that assessment. Normal people don't talk shit about companies that they're happy with.

This all stinks of a company that is trying to censor their customers from interfering with their steady supply of preorder money.  They can keep the stench under wraps from current customers.  Luckily, I am not a customer and have nothing to fear by pointing out what stockholm syndrome has blinded all of you to.  BFL is a scam that is bleeding money every day, and will go bankrupt within a few months.  Good luck getting your vaporware!

There's nothing wrong with discontinuing a toxic business relationship. You have every right to talk all the shit you want. And they have a right to end the business relationship. It's not "censorship" to say, "If you trash our company, we won't do business with you anymore." You're still free to say whatever you want. Their response will be to simply put your money where your mouth is, on your behalf. Don't trust the company? Don't like the company? Think it's a scam? Thinking about suing if you don't get your order next week?

"Fine. Here's your money. Fuck off."

[pikeadz]

Apparently BFL has now entered the business of... reading minds!  

Don't bother asking for refunds people.  They already know which of you want them and which of you don't.  Those of you who do will be automatically refunded, even if you don't know it yet.  What customer service!

"Mind readers"? Nope, how about just "readers"? You think that the crap you plaster all over the internet isn't available for them to read as well? They don't have to read his mind, they just have to read what he wrote.

Is she wrong that he's "Unhappy with the company"? Everything I've seen him post leads me to agree with that assessment. Normal people don't talk shit about companies that they're happy with.

This all stinks of a company that is trying to censor their customers from interfering with their steady supply of preorder money.  They can keep the stench under wraps from current customers.  Luckily, I am not a customer and have nothing to fear by pointing out what stockholm syndrome has blinded all of you to.  BFL is a scam that is bleeding money every day, and will go bankrupt within a few months.  Good luck getting your vaporware!

There's nothing wrong with discontinuing a toxic business relationship. You have every right to talk all the shit you want. And they have a right to end the business relationship. It's not "censorship" to say, "If you trash our company, we won't do business with you anymore." You're still free to say whatever you want. Their response will be to simply put your money where your mouth is, on your behalf. Don't trust the company? Don't like the company? Think it's a scam? Thinking about suing if you don't get your order next week?

"Fine. Here's your money. Fuck off."

 

You are singing the tune quite well.  I predict your order doesn't get cancelled.  Nice work soldier!

[k9quaint]

Apparently BFL has now entered the business of... reading minds!  

Don't bother asking for refunds people.  They already know which of you want them and which of you don't.  Those of you who do will be automatically refunded, even if you don't know it yet.  What customer service!

"Mind readers"? Nope, how about just "readers"? You think that the crap you plaster all over the internet isn't available for them to read as well? They don't have to read his mind, they just have to read what he wrote.

Is she wrong that he's "Unhappy with the company"? Everything I've seen him post leads me to agree with that assessment. Normal people don't talk shit about companies that they're happy with.

This all stinks of a company that is trying to censor their customers from interfering with their steady supply of preorder money.  They can keep the stench under wraps from current customers.  Luckily, I am not a customer and have nothing to fear by pointing out what stockholm syndrome has blinded all of you to.  BFL is a scam that is bleeding money every day, and will go bankrupt within a few months.  Good luck getting your vaporware!

There's nothing wrong with discontinuing a toxic business relationship. You have every right to talk all the shit you want. And they have a right to end the business relationship. It's not "censorship" to say, "If you trash our company, we won't do business with you anymore." You're still free to say whatever you want. Their response will be to simply put your money where your mouth is, on your behalf. Don't trust the company? Don't like the company? Think it's a scam? Thinking about suing if you don't get your order next week?

"Fine. Here's your money. Fuck off."

 

You are singing the tune quite well.  I predict your order doesn't get cancelled.  Nice work soldier!

Yep. For every post you make singing the praises of BFL, they raise you 1 spot in the order queue.

[wrenchmonkey]

Apparently BFL has now entered the business of... reading minds!  

Don't bother asking for refunds people.  They already know which of you want them and which of you don't.  Those of you who do will be automatically refunded, even if you don't know it yet.  What customer service!

"Mind readers"? Nope, how about just "readers"? You think that the crap you plaster all over the internet isn't available for them to read as well? They don't have to read his mind, they just have to read what he wrote.

Is she wrong that he's "Unhappy with the company"? Everything I've seen him post leads me to agree with that assessment. Normal people don't talk shit about companies that they're happy with.

This all stinks of a company that is trying to censor their customers from interfering with their steady supply of preorder money.  They can keep the stench under wraps from current customers.  Luckily, I am not a customer and have nothing to fear by pointing out what stockholm syndrome has blinded all of you to.  BFL is a scam that is bleeding money every day, and will go bankrupt within a few months.  Good luck getting your vaporware!

There's nothing wrong with discontinuing a toxic business relationship. You have every right to talk all the shit you want. And they have a right to end the business relationship. It's not "censorship" to say, "If you trash our company, we won't do business with you anymore." You're still free to say whatever you want. Their response will be to simply put your money where your mouth is, on your behalf. Don't trust the company? Don't like the company? Think it's a scam? Thinking about suing if you don't get your order next week?

"Fine. Here's your money. Fuck off."

 

You are singing the tune quite well.  I predict your order doesn't get cancelled.  Nice work soldier!

I predict it doesn't as well. In fact, I predict that anybody who isn't dedicating time toward trashing BFL doesn't get their order canceled. There's no "tune" to sing. Just don't spew garbage at every opportunity. There are plenty of people who have expressed frustration, who won't get their orders canceled either, because simply expressing frustration isn't the same thing as accusing a company of being a scam, etc, every time said company is mentioned in a new thread...  

Purging the occasional toxic customer will be better for everybody. Maybe he can go buy some more USB sticks from ASICMINER now. Those seem like a totally solid investment...

[Blue777]

Orders 2030, 2158, 1000033476 - Paid for via BTC - 4 x Single SC 60GH/s units

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On May 16, 2013, at 12:46 PM, Butterfly Labs Inc wrote:

Dear Christian,

It has been relayed to me that you are unhappy with our company and I was asked to cancel your orders. If you would send me a PayPal address I will send your money back to you ASAP.

Jody
BF Labs, Inc.

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My response;

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I am sorry, but that is erroneous.

I have never asked for, nor do I wish to receive a refund.

I have been patiently waiting for over 11 months now, and still have faith Butterfly Labs will deliver product.

Regards,

Maybe they not have much faith for themself

[kendog77]

Most companies don't like to do business with customers who are a pain in the ass. Contractors weed out bad customers all the time by providing high estimates to customers who seem like they will be a real pain the ass.

[Endlessa]

Apparently BFL has now entered the business of... reading minds!  

Don't bother asking for refunds people.  They already know which of you want them and which of you don't.  Those of you who do will be automatically refunded, even if you don't know it yet.  What customer service!

"Mind readers"? Nope, how about just "readers"? You think that the crap you plaster all over the internet isn't available for them to read as well? They don't have to read his mind, they just have to read what he wrote.

Is she wrong that he's "Unhappy with the company"? Everything I've seen him post leads me to agree with that assessment. Normal people don't talk shit about companies that they're happy with.

This all stinks of a company that is trying to censor their customers from interfering with their steady supply of preorder money.  They can keep the stench under wraps from current customers.  Luckily, I am not a customer and have nothing to fear by pointing out what stockholm syndrome has blinded all of you to.  BFL is a scam that is bleeding money every day, and will go bankrupt within a few months.  Good luck getting your vaporware!

There's nothing wrong with discontinuing a toxic business relationship. You have every right to talk all the shit you want. And they have a right to end the business relationship. It's not "censorship" to say, "If you trash our company, we won't do business with you anymore." You're still free to say whatever you want. Their response will be to simply put your money where your mouth is, on your behalf. Don't trust the company? Don't like the company? Think it's a scam? Thinking about suing if you don't get your order next week?

"Fine. Here's your money. Fuck off."

 

You are singing the tune quite well.  I predict your order doesn't get cancelled.  Nice work soldier!

I predict it doesn't as well. In fact, I predict that anybody who isn't dedicating time toward trashing BFL doesn't get their order canceled. There's no "tune" to sing. Just don't spew garbage at every opportunity. There are plenty of people who have expressed frustration, who won't get their orders canceled either, because simply expressing frustration isn't the same thing as accusing a company of being a scam, etc, every time said company is mentioned in a new thread...  

Purging the occasional toxic customer will be better for everybody. Maybe he can go buy some more USB sticks from ASICMINER now. Those seem like a totally solid investment...

for the historical record https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=204375.msg2139221#msg2139221