Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[wrenchmonkey]

He didn't cancel, which indicates that he didn't believe what he was saying, and instead was just being malicious.

1) Pre-order product
2) Get taunted by COO of BFL on Forums. Made to endure one broken promise after another. No shipping date in sight after 11 months of waiting.
3) Call him on his bullshit
4) Repeatedly
5) COO punitively cancels orders from butt-hurt
6) Makes sure pre-order customer also is made to feel butt-hurt - awaiting refund in paypal account

 Is this an accurate assessment of the situation ?

1) Pre-order product.
2) Shipping delays.
3) Taunt company ceaselessly, sling mud, pick fights, make accusations and allusions to fraud, etc. Insult multiple corporate officers of company.
4) Repeatedly.
5) Company says enough is enough, cancels order and asks for refund account info.
6) Pathetic attempt at backpedaling.
7) Post the butthurt on public forum for a little more taunting/mudslinging.
Backpedaling didn't work.
9) Accept fate, send refund account information late in day (probably not too long before closing time).
10) Immediately complain that you don't have refund yet, in butthurt thread. Update every 20 minutes that you still don't have refund.
11) Cry to AG office, as though you're a victim of some conspiracy to 'borrow' money interest-free/target you for being (Black? Female? Gay? Christian? )

[Xian01]

Backpedaling didn't work.
9) Accept fate, send refund account information late in day (probably not too long before closing time).
11) Cry to AG office

8. If asking for clarification of libel, slander, or other false statements, then I'm guilty of backpedaling or deleting a couple particularly vicious jabs
9. Granted. Lets see how tomorrow plays out. Sending money via Paypal is pretty trivial and it should stand to reason they have a funded account - If they were a well-oiled machine.
11. Wouldn't you after having been bent over for 11 months ? I've been on this planet for a while, been involved in a few lawsuits, have seen some things and stuff, but I've never, EVER, come near to a customer experience like this.

 This is just not how a normal company conducts business. Certainly not any tech company I have ever conducted business with.

 

[l3sny]

Ok. So where are the limits of BFL bona fide as reliable business? Has it been crossed or not yet?
Broken promises... more promises... sometimes an update about troubles... issues with the chips or powering... another problem (but it will be solved by Wednesday!).... the chips are being on their way to KC... blah blah blah. Of course such people do not mine in the mean time on their Jalapenos, and who knows on what else. No no, they are only interested in producing ASICs....
I am telling you. This cannot be left like that no matter if they deliver or not. Let's start demanding where is the money, where is the equipment, why everybody else in this business got way ahead. Why there is no deadline? Why everything is going so wrong.... enough this bullshit! If they could not have predicted the whole technological process why they made those offers and pre-orders? Would you buy BFL's gear if you had known that by the end of May 2013 you're left with nothing? Misrepresentation? Dishonesty? Those damages could be calculated.... I think some class action could do miracles...  

Misrepresentation is a concept in contract law referring to a false statement of fact made by one party to another party, which has the effect of inducing that party into the contract. For example, under certain circumstances, false statements or promises made by a seller of goods regarding the quality or nature of the product that the seller has may constitute misrepresentation. A finding of misrepresentation allows for a remedy of rescission and sometimes damages depending on the type of misrepresentation.

[Tehfiend]

...speaking of my last post.  

He didn't have to predict that his order would be delayed. The moment he realized the delays were too much for him is when he should have pulled out. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. But he still continued to place orders, and he continued to troll the forums trying to defame the company at the same time. He needn't have 'predicted' anything.

I get that the idea of 'sunk cost' is a factor in not wanting to cancel his first order, which is why it sucks for him at this point. But again, if he really honestly believed the crap he was posting, he would have canceled his order ages ago. He didn't cancel, which indicates that he didn't believe what he was saying, and instead was just being malicious.

BFL doesn't need his "consent" to cancel the order. They can cancel the order and send a refund, and that's what they did. More people need to understand that a business transaction isn't complete until the order ships. Either party can cancel the order at any time until that point.

I seriously doubt my order will get bumped simply for stating the obvious, and if it did, you would never hear about it, so I guess you'll never know.  

Like I've already said, BFL has been saying "almost ready to ship!" over and over. That's how they've managed to string guys like him along. Why would he cancel his order in Oct after waiting 5 months when they tell him they will be shipping by the end of the month? Not once have they said "Shipping will be delayed until next summer" etc. I pre-ordered in Feb and directly experienced the cryptic updates that led me to believe my unit would be shipped soon and only bailed once I realized they had no idea what they were talking about or were flat out lying. Just when I would think about canceling they would release another update giving me hope changing my mind. For example at the end of March Josh posted a few official updates with the following:

Again, we apologize for the delay, but we are almost there.

I want to clarify the above post, as there is some potential confusion. We are not shipping yet. We plan on shipping possibly by the end of next week, but I will update on a shipping schedule as soon as I have more definitive information with regards to that.

Who would cancel when they plan to possibly ship by the end of next week! Almost there!!! If you get the idea of 'sunk cost' then you shouldn't be asking him why he kept his order so long. Go back and read all of their updates that mislead their customers into thinking they only have to wait a little bit longer if you still don't understand. It's quite obvious he held onto hope that what they were saying was true while expressing his doubts to the contrary on the forums. That is no justification for canceling his order since he's far from the only person posting their frustrations and theories behind the delays. The only purpose to canceling his order is to punish him which will silence unhappy customers and help obscure their failures.

[Bitcoinorama]

It really shouldn't be that hard.

If they were just starting out, sourcing parts and at the whim of overseas third party manufacturers responses, a monthly progress update is acceptable, because you are progressing slowly and there's not too much to say.

Once you have parts and the ball is rolling, weekly updates are the norm and to be expected especially as BFL seem so keen to be in various media.

When you have missed goalpost time and time again to the point by which you have disgruntled customers waiting for more than six months and you still don't have reliable prototype, but accusations of fraud or inability to complete the task at hand it is not unreasonable to expect daily progress updates. If not for the sole reason, there may actually be experts in the field that if you actually aired your issues may help you solve any technical problems.

Any reason not to lay the cards on the table at this point and remain evasive and emotional should cause alarm bells, genuinely. That's just common sense.

[Xian01]

The only purpose to canceling his order is to punish him which will silence unhappy customers and help obscure their failures.

... and this is what just blows my mind. By canceling my orders, they have done the exact opposite of silencing me

 It just doesn't make any logical sense. They have left me incensed. As Val Kilmer once said, "It's a moral imperative" now.

[l3sny]

The only purpose to canceling his order is to punish him which will silence unhappy customers and help obscure their failures.

... and this is what just blows my mind. By canceling my orders, they have done the exact opposite of silencing me

 It just doesn't make any logical sense. They have left me incensed. As Val Kilmer once said, "It's a moral imperative" now.

+1

[Bitcoinorama]

The only purpose to canceling his order is to punish him which will silence unhappy customers and help obscure their failures.

... and this is what just blows my mind. By canceling my orders, they have done the exact opposite of silencing me

 It just doesn't make any logical sense. They have left me incensed. As Val Kilmer once said, "It's a moral imperative" now.

Which is the obvious reaction as I stated earlier in this thread. If a hornet is pissed off, you don't piss it off more, you'll end up with a swarm of the f***ers.

In this case BFL are reacting as emotionally as their customers, when their customers have a right to be emotional and they, as a manufacturer repeatedly missing targets and making errors of their own device should be the ones remaining calm and level headed.

Just look how many posts this one thread has received in a little over an hour!

[k9quaint]

The only purpose to canceling his order is to punish him which will silence unhappy customers and help obscure their failures.

... and this is what just blows my mind. By canceling my orders, they have done the exact opposite of silencing me

 It just doesn't make any logical sense. They have left me incensed. As Val Kilmer once said, "It's a moral imperative" now.

By kicking you to the curb, they hope to make other investors who might complain keep silent. BFL needs the pre-orders to keep rolling in so they can fund production. They can't keep it up if investors continue to complain on these forums. Also, by refunding you your money you now have no standing for legal complaint.

Plus, Josh has an ego and can't let things go. He had to punish you for going against the party line.

[wrenchmonkey]

...speaking of my last post.  

He didn't have to predict that his order would be delayed. The moment he realized the delays were too much for him is when he should have pulled out. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. But he still continued to place orders, and he continued to troll the forums trying to defame the company at the same time. He needn't have 'predicted' anything.

I get that the idea of 'sunk cost' is a factor in not wanting to cancel his first order, which is why it sucks for him at this point. But again, if he really honestly believed the crap he was posting, he would have canceled his order ages ago. He didn't cancel, which indicates that he didn't believe what he was saying, and instead was just being malicious.

BFL doesn't need his "consent" to cancel the order. They can cancel the order and send a refund, and that's what they did. More people need to understand that a business transaction isn't complete until the order ships. Either party can cancel the order at any time until that point.

I seriously doubt my order will get bumped simply for stating the obvious, and if it did, you would never hear about it, so I guess you'll never know.  

Like I've already said, BFL has been saying "almost ready to ship!" over and over. That's how they've managed to string guys like him along. Why would he cancel his order in Oct after waiting 5 months when they tell him they will be shipping by the end of the month? Not once have they said "Shipping will be delayed until next summer" etc. I pre-ordered in Feb and directly experienced the cryptic updates that led me to believe my unit would be shipped soon and only bailed once I realized they had no idea what they were talking about or were flat out lying. Just when I would think about canceling they would release another update giving me hope changing my mind. For example at the end of March Josh posted a few official updates with the following:

Again, we apologize for the delay, but we are almost there.

I want to clarify the above post, as there is some potential confusion. We are not shipping yet. We plan on shipping possibly by the end of next week, but I will update on a shipping schedule as soon as I have more definitive information with regards to that.

Who would cancel when they plan to possibly ship by the end of next week! Almost there!!! If you get the idea of 'sunk cost' then you shouldn't be asking him why he kept his order so long. Go back and read all of their updates that mislead their customers into thinking they only have to wait a little bit longer if you still don't understand. It's quite obvious he held onto hope that what they were saying was true while expressing his doubts to the contrary on the forums. That is no justification for canceling his order since he's far from the only person posting their frustrations and theories behind the delays. The only purpose to canceling his order is to punish him which will silence unhappy customers and help obscure their failures.

Sure, I already conceded the sunk cost for the order he had already placed. But if he was just holding out hope against hope, then maybe, why did he place multiple orders after the fact? It wasn't just sunk cost, it was a belief in the product. His actions said one thing, while his words said another. He alleged fraud, etc, against the company and owners, to discourage others from ordering the very same products he was ordering. Again, proving that his motives were malicious.

I'm guessing he just wanted to be one of the 'cool kids' pretending he didn't believe they were legit, all the while, thinking he could do and say whatever he wanted with impunity.

Kicking his ass to the curb won't silence him, and they know that, but when he came crying to the forum this last time, he was exposed for being a troll. Anybody reading his posts now will do so with the benefit of the knowledge that he was a hypocrite troll, who was saying one thing while doing another the whole time; and that his posts from here on out are pretty much sour grapes over finally being cut off.

Again, if you don't like BFL, don't order from them. If you've already ordered, and you hate them, get a refund, and never look back. But put your money where your mouth is. I, for one, am glad that BFL is stuffing the troll's money in their mouths for them, since most of them don't have the stones to do it themselves.

[l3sny]

I would consult my lawyer if someone breached the contract I have invested my money in.
The refund should be treated just as mitigation of loss (which in this case is ongoing).  BFL is playing with fire...

[Bitcoinorama]

The only purpose to canceling his order is to punish him which will silence unhappy customers and help obscure their failures.

... and this is what just blows my mind. By canceling my orders, they have done the exact opposite of silencing me

 It just doesn't make any logical sense. They have left me incensed. As Val Kilmer once said, "It's a moral imperative" now.

By kicking you to the curb, they hope to make other investors who might complain keep silent. BFL needs the pre-orders to keep rolling in so they can fund production. They can't keep it up if investors continue to complain on these forums. Also, by refunding you your money you now have no standing for legal complaint.

Plus, Josh has an ego and can't let things go. He had to punish you for going against the party line.

Surely he has every right, they forced a refund upon him after almost a year of confiscating funds from him and still have nothing to show for it, besides encouraging him to stick with it up until this point. There's a huge question mark they were ever going to give him anything as six months after promising delivery they yet to have a working prototype of any of his order.

[k9quaint]

I troll for BFL, but I am not paid well for my services.

Yep.

FYI, the people who are most pissed off by BFL's schemes are those who ordered from them. They have a right to complain, warn others and seek redress. They are not trolls. They are people who have been wronged by a company that is actively seeking out others upon which to inflict their schemes on.

You sir are the troll for insulting them, taunting them, and rationalizing BFL's behavior.

[wrenchmonkey]

I would consult my lawyer if someone breached the contract I have invested my money in.
The refund should be treated just as mitigation of loss (which in this case is ongoing).  BFL is playing with fire...

It's not a contract, nor is it a breach of the same. Also, I don't think you understand the meaning of the term "mitigation of loss." It actually works against your argument in this case.

[Xian01]

and they know that, but when he came crying to the forum this last time, he was exposed for being a troll. Anybody reading his posts now will do so with the benefit of the knowledge that he was a hypocrite troll, who was saying one thing while doing another the whole time; and that his posts from here on out are pretty much sour grapes over finally being cut off.

 Excuse me, but this is an unfair assessment of the situation. A hypocrite ? How do you figure ? Because I had pre-orders, and I'm expressing my displeasure with the state of the project ? That makes me a hypocrite troll for holding my pre-orders ? I don't see the correlation.

 That is just a piss-poor outlook, and very passive/submissive attitude to have on your part. I'm glad that your tolerance for bullshit is way higher than mine. Lets hope you you receive your orders and not become as bitter as I have with Butterfly Labs.

 It would be easier if I could somehow be imbued with the superpower of infinite patience. Alas, circumstances became such that I took my frustrations a bit too far.

 I'm fine taking my lumps by receiving a refund. It's probably best for both parties at this point.

 Lessons learned and so on and so forth.

[wrenchmonkey]

I'm an idiot who doesn't possess even a cursory understanding of the legal issues at play (or much of anything else for that matter).

Yup.

FYI, the people who troll the hardest are people who either waited too long to place a pre-order, and are bitter; or they're people who have no interest whatsoever in BFL, other than the the enjoyment they get out of stirring the shit.

Which are you?

[Tehfiend]

Sure, I already conceded the sunk cost for the order he had already placed. But if he was just holding out hope against hope, then maybe, why did he place multiple orders after the fact? It wasn't just sunk cost, it was a belief in the product. His actions said one thing, while his words said another. He alleged fraud, etc, against the company and owners, to discourage others from ordering the very same products he was ordering. Again, proving that his motives were malicious.

I'm guessing he just wanted to be one of the 'cool kids' pretending he didn't believe they were legit, all the while, thinking he could do and say whatever he wanted with impunity.

Kicking his ass to the curb won't silence him, and they know that, but when he came crying to the forum this last time, he was exposed for being a troll. Anybody reading his posts now will do so with the benefit of the knowledge that he was a hypocrite troll, who was saying one thing while doing another the whole time; and that his posts from here on out are pretty much sour grapes over finally being cut off.

Again, if you don't like BFL, don't order from them. If you've already ordered, and you hate them, get a refund, and never look back. But put your money where your mouth is. I, for one, am glad that BFL is stuffing the troll's money in their mouths for them, since most of them don't have the stones to do it themselves.

Can you share when he placed his additional orders? I know his first order was in June but have not heard when he placed additional orders to know if what you are saying is true.

[wrenchmonkey]

and they know that, but when he came crying to the forum this last time, he was exposed for being a troll. Anybody reading his posts now will do so with the benefit of the knowledge that he was a hypocrite troll, who was saying one thing while doing another the whole time; and that his posts from here on out are pretty much sour grapes over finally being cut off.

 Excuse me, but this is an unfair assessment of the situation. A hypocrite ? How do you figure ? Because I had pre-orders, and I'm expressing my displeasure with the state of the project ? That makes me a hypocrite troll for holding my pre-orders ? I don't see the correlation.

 That is just a piss-poor outlook, and very passive/submissive attitude to have on your part. I'm glad that your tolerance for bullshit is way higher than mine. Lets hope you you receive your orders and not become as bitter as I have with Butterfly Labs.

 It would be easier if I could somehow be imbued with the superpower of infinite patience. Alas, circumstances became such that I took my frustrations a bit too far.

 I'm fine taking my lumps by receiving a refund. It's probably best for both parties at this point.

 Lessons learned and so on and so forth.

I'm not trying to rub salt in your wounds, man. I'm responding to the other hoards of imbeciles at this point.

But you WERE hypocritical. You didn't just complain "man, this wait really stinks. I wish I had my order." You ran the full gamut of insults, allegations of fraud, mud slinging, etc. WHILE PLACING MORE ORDERS.

I too hope not to become as bitter as you. In fact, I would request a refund WELL before I ever let it reach that point...

If you believed that you were dealing with scammers, you wouldn't have placed more orders, nor would you have refused to request a refund. THAT is the epitome of hypocrisy. Saying one thing while doing another. Please presume that anything that I say from this point is directed at the hoards of 'tards, and not toward you, because I really don't intend to thrash you any further than you've already been.

[wrenchmonkey]

Sure, I already conceded the sunk cost for the order he had already placed. But if he was just holding out hope against hope, then maybe, why did he place multiple orders after the fact? It wasn't just sunk cost, it was a belief in the product. His actions said one thing, while his words said another. He alleged fraud, etc, against the company and owners, to discourage others from ordering the very same products he was ordering. Again, proving that his motives were malicious.

I'm guessing he just wanted to be one of the 'cool kids' pretending he didn't believe they were legit, all the while, thinking he could do and say whatever he wanted with impunity.

Kicking his ass to the curb won't silence him, and they know that, but when he came crying to the forum this last time, he was exposed for being a troll. Anybody reading his posts now will do so with the benefit of the knowledge that he was a hypocrite troll, who was saying one thing while doing another the whole time; and that his posts from here on out are pretty much sour grapes over finally being cut off.

Again, if you don't like BFL, don't order from them. If you've already ordered, and you hate them, get a refund, and never look back. But put your money where your mouth is. I, for one, am glad that BFL is stuffing the troll's money in their mouths for them, since most of them don't have the stones to do it themselves.

Can you share when he placed his additional orders? I know his first order was in June but have not heard when he placed additional orders to know if what you are saying is true.

I don't know the dates, but he stated that he went back and placed additional orders a few pages back. If that's not accurate, address it with him. He's the one who brought it up.

[l3sny]

I would consult my lawyer if someone breached the contract I have invested my money in.
The refund should be treated just as mitigation of loss (which in this case is ongoing).  BFL is playing with fire...

It's not a contract, nor is it a breach of the same. Also, I don't think you understand the meaning of the term "mitigation of loss." It actually works against your argument in this case.

I think it has to be a contract because there was a money transfer (a payment made) So in exchange the recipient is obliged to do this and that (deliver ASICs). It is a textbook legal contract IMHO.

As to the mitigation of loss... lets leave this discussion for some other occasion as it is too much off topic.