Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[darkmule]

This wrenchmonkey assclown ought to apply for a job with BFL.  He's doing great PR for them.  He's even more of a dick than Josh.

[Tehfiend]

I don't know the dates, but he stated that he went back and placed additional orders a few pages back. If that's not accurate, address it with him. He's the one who brought it up.

So your basically basing your accusations of hypocrisy on assumptions. There's a lot of time between June and now to place additional orders. You don't know if he placed those additional orders right after one of their "almost there!" updates but before he started ranting because of additional delays and Josh's unprofessional posts do you? In fact I would be even more pissed if I placed more orders because they said they will be shipping in a few weeks only to wait a few more months. I wonder why you aren't as critical in your assumptions about BFL but are so quick to kick this guy when he is down...

[Xian01]

If you believed that you were dealing with scammers, you wouldn't have placed more orders, nor would you have refused to request a refund. THAT is the epitome of hypocrisy.

To be absolutely clear, I never implied, nor did I ever believe Butterfly Labs were a scam. I'm currently running one of their FPGA Singles. It's not hypocrisy if you believe they will ship product, but express displeasure with the process on this ASIC project thus far, and hope that they might be more forthcoming or accurate with assessments of the project development at this stage.

Just because I don't like the way something is handled, doesn't mean I don't like the product.

Heck, I'm dying to buy an updated Mac Pro. Am I pissed at Apple for dropping the ball on that product-line ? Fuck yes. Do I post bitterness and frustration on Apple forums ? Heck yes. Am I going to buy an updated Mac Pro when (if?) they finally come out ? You betcha. Do you see Tim Cook making a note to Apple sales saying "Lets blacklist that Xian01 guy from ever buying our products again, and refund him for all his software and iTunes purchases up until now" I can't ever imagine something like that happening with a respectable company.

[Xian01]

I don't know the dates, but he stated that he went back and placed additional orders a few pages back. If that's not accurate, address it with him. He's the one who brought it up.

Two orders in June 2012 (1 upgrade from my current BFL FPGA). Another two orders on April 4th 2013.

[wrenchmonkey]

If you believed that you were dealing with scammers, you wouldn't have placed more orders, nor would you have refused to request a refund. THAT is the epitome of hypocrisy.

To be absolutely clear, I never implied, nor did I ever believe Butterfly Labs were a scam. I'm currently running one of their FPGA Singles. It's not hypocrisy if you believe they will ship product, but express displeasure with the process on this ASIC project thus far, and hope that they might be more forthcoming or accurate with assessments of the project development at this stage.

Just because I don't like the way something is handled, doesn't mean I don't like the product.

Heck, I'm dying to buy an updated Mac Pro. Am I pissed at Apple for dropping the ball on that product-line ? Fuck yes. Do I post bitterness and frustration on Apple forums ? Heck yes. Am I going to buy an updated Mac Pro when (if?) they finally come out ? You betcha. Do you see Tim Cook making a note to Apple sales saying "Lets blacklist that Xian01 guy from ever buying our products again, and refund him for all his software and iTunes purchases up until now" I can't ever imagine something like that happening with a respectable company.

Really? Because a LOT of your posts bring up Sonny being a "felon" over and over. One of your posts outright stated that they still need to prove that they're not a scam. So again, if you didn't believe that they were a scam, you sure did put a lot of effort into making it appear that you did (hypocrite).

I don't know the dates, but he stated that he went back and placed additional orders a few pages back. If that's not accurate, address it with him. He's the one who brought it up.

So your basically basing your accusations of hypocrisy on assumptions. There's a lot of time between June and now to place additional orders. You don't know if he placed those additional orders right after one of their "almost there!" updates but before he started ranting because of additional delays and Josh's unprofessional posts do you? In fact I would be even more pissed if I placed more orders because they said they will be shipping in a few weeks only to wait a few more months. I wonder why you aren't as critical in your assumptions about BFL but are so quick to kick this guy when he is down...

No, I'm basing them on HIS OWN words. His reason for bringing up his additional orders was to make the point that he had not actually lost faith in BFL (Despite a whole lot of FUD posts to the contrary). Hence, the hypocrisy. God, you're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?

[PuertoLibre]

AFAIK this is completely legal on BFL's part, it also makes perfect sense for BFL to do this.

Given that BFL's business will flounder without generating pre-sales to fund their production, they need to continue collecting new investors. They can't collect new investors if the old ones fill these forums with complaints. If Wired or Ars Technica stumbled across one of these threads full of BFL pre-orders shouting and brandishing their torches & pitchforks then BFL is toast.

By publicly evicting a few outspoken critics, they hope to silence the complaints of their pre-order base. If the complaints swell to a critical mass, people might start asking for their money back en masse and BFL cannot abide that.

Plus, Josh's ego won't let the sort of things the OP said pass without some form of retaliation.

In other news, Avalon batch 2 is shipping.

P.S. Maybe you could ask Avalon to sneak in 1 extra unit into batch 2 for you. It might be a PR coup for them

Wow, that is a very good idea....

[Bicknellski]

Purging the occasional toxic customer will be better for everybody. Maybe he can go buy some more USB sticks from ASICMINER now. Those seem like a totally solid investment...

The best recourse would be for the customers en masse to purge this toxic company and thus allow the market to be repopulated with more reputable and reliable businesses. The only reason this is dragging on is pipe dreams of thousands of people who assume they will get something that hashes.

The implosion of BFL is nearing, and as someone without any orders with BFL, I am glad I won't have to make the decision to jump ship before everyone else does. This from here on out is going to be a race for the bottom. A game of suicide chicken that neither Wrenchmonkey or Xian01 have any moves laterally. It is either you get out now or suffer the consequences of the following:

1. Under performing prototypes that fail to meet projected specifications
2. Repeatedly missed deadlines and over estimation of delivery and production schedules
3. Inefficient, mixed and collapsing system of JIT production
4. Disinformation, misinformation and incompetency at all level of the company communications
5. Questionable moral character of some of the parties involved in the company
6. Ever growing competitor base that threatens to wipe out their market share

Looking at that list as well as more that could be added who is the "winner"? The toxicity of the environment in this case was caused not by rightly disgruntled customers rather a less than lucid group at BFL who simply are rapidly losing the advantage of the position, they had carved out in the market place as the only "mass" "produced" option to get mining rigs. The real downfall of BFL will invariably come from the combination of the points above, vocal ex-customers, and the failure to ship any products or enough products in time. The reality is that BFL may ship something... but it will be far too little too late and with real competition from DIY / Open source as well as private entities they will not be ready to build the 2nd generation of ASICs. That is where the real battle lines are now. Not GEN I but GEN II. They missed the window it is over.

[Xian01]

Really? Because a LOT of your posts bring up Sonny being a "felon" over and over. One of your posts outright stated that they still need to prove that they're not a scam. So again, if you didn't believe that they were a scam, you sure did put a lot of effort into making it appear that you did

 Is Sonny Chris Vleisides not a felon ? Again, if I am in error with those facts, I'll be the first to stick my foot in my mouth and apologize. Am I an asshole for raising that point ? Probably. Slow-burn frustration has a way of making one exceptionally bitter on a long enough timeline when money has been put up in good-faith.

 Please point out the post where I state they still need to prove they are not a scam. That does not sound like something I would say, considering I don't believe they are a scam and already own one of their products. Shady ? Sure. A scam ? Verifiably not, so far.

[darkmule]

Really? Because a LOT of your posts bring up Sonny being a "felon" over and over. One of your posts outright stated that they still need to prove that they're not a scam. So again, if you didn't believe that they were a scam, you sure did put a lot of effort into making it appear that you did

 Is Sonny Chris Vleisides not a felon ? Again, if I am in error with those facts, I'll be the first to stick my foot in my mouth and apologize. Am I an asshole for raising that point ? Probably. Slow-burn frustration has a way of making one exceptionally bitter on a long enough timeline when money has been put up in good-faith.

I see nothing wrong whatsoever when pointing out that a person who appears to be currently running a mail order scam is, in fact, a convicted felon because of previously running a mail order scam.

[PuertoLibre]

He didn't cancel, which indicates that he didn't believe what he was saying, and instead was just being malicious.

1) Pre-order product
2) Get taunted by COO of BFL on Forums. Made to endure one broken promise after another. No shipping date in sight after 11 months of waiting.
3) Call him on his bullshit
4) Repeatedly
5) COO punitively cancels orders from butt-hurt
6) Makes sure pre-order customer also is made to feel butt-hurt - awaiting refund in paypal account

 Is this an accurate assessment of the situation ?

1) Pre-order product.
2) Shipping delays.
3) Taunt company ceaselessly, sling mud, pick fights, make accusations and allusions to fraud, etc. Insult multiple corporate officers of company.
4) Repeatedly.
5) Company says enough is enough, cancels order and asks for refund account info.
6) Pathetic attempt at backpedaling.
7) Post the butthurt on public forum for a little more taunting/mudslinging.
Backpedaling didn't work.
9) Accept fate, send refund account information late in day (probably not too long before closing time).
10) Immediately complain that you don't have refund yet, in butthurt thread. Update every 20 minutes that you still don't have refund.
11) Cry to AG office, as though you're a victim of some conspiracy to 'borrow' money interest-free/target you for being (Black? Female? Gay? Christian? )

Anyone notice that in wrenchmonkeys twisted reality, the COO never taunted him at all?

This should be sent to your local psychologist for study and possible review.

[PuertoLibre]

11. Wouldn't you after having been bent over for 11 months ? I've been on this planet for a while, been involved in a few lawsuits, have seen some things and stuff, but I've never, EVER, come near to a customer experience like this.

 This is just not how a normal company conducts business. Certainly not any tech company I have ever conducted business with.

 

Sir, calm down.

If you did not know, wrenchmonkey is always "bent over" while doing work. That is what wrenchmonkey is known for...hence the name? (I speculate)

[Xian01]

Anyone notice that in wrenchmonkeys twisted reality, the COO never taunted him at all?
This should be sent to your local psychologist for study and possible review.

<tinfoil-hat>
Wrenchmoney is a Josh sockpuppet account
</tinfoil-hat>

[PuertoLibre]

The only purpose to canceling his order is to punish him which will silence unhappy customers and help obscure their failures.

... and this is what just blows my mind. By canceling my orders, they have done the exact opposite of silencing me

 It just doesn't make any logical sense. They have left me incensed. As Val Kilmer once said, "It's a moral imperative" now.

Xian is the one.

He will free us from Zion!

[PuertoLibre]

This wrenchmonkey assclown ought to apply for a job with BFL.  He's doing great PR for them.  He's even more of a dick than Josh.

Perhaps he is Inaba's alter ego?

[wrenchmonkey]

If you believed that you were dealing with scammers, you wouldn't have placed more orders, nor would you have refused to request a refund. THAT is the epitome of hypocrisy.

To be absolutely clear, I never implied, nor did I ever believe Butterfly Labs were a scam. I'm currently running one of their FPGA Singles. It's not hypocrisy if you believe they will ship product, but express displeasure with the process on this ASIC project thus far, and hope that they might be more forthcoming or accurate with assessments of the project development at this stage.

Just because I don't like the way something is handled, doesn't mean I don't like the product.

Heck, I'm dying to buy an updated Mac Pro. Am I pissed at Apple for dropping the ball on that product-line ? Fuck yes. Do I post bitterness and frustration on Apple forums ? Heck yes. Am I going to buy an updated Mac Pro when (if?) they finally come out ? You betcha. Do you see Tim Cook making a note to Apple sales saying "Lets blacklist that Xian01 guy from ever buying our products again, and refund him for all his software and iTunes purchases up until now" I can't ever imagine something like that happening with a respectable company.

I happen to have worked for a company VEEEERY much like that one you just mentioned. So much like that one, that it might be confused with that one. Now, I can't legally say that I ever did or did not, but let's just say that the odds are very good that I might have worked at a company that specializes in the mediocre overpriced shiny products that are usually silver, and have fruit logos on them...

I can tell you that a "respectable" company that is JUST EXACTLY LIKE THAT COMPANY IN EVERY SINGLE RESPECT (among others that I've worked for) have and do blacklist people. You have to be a special kind of douchebag to earn that honor, but you bet your sweet ass it happens, at the sort of company you're idolizing...

Really? Because a LOT of your posts bring up Sonny being a "felon" over and over. One of your posts outright stated that they still need to prove that they're not a scam. So again, if you didn't believe that they were a scam, you sure did put a lot of effort into making it appear that you did

 Is Sonny Chris Vleisides not a felon ? Again, if I am in error with those facts, I'll be the first to stick my foot in my mouth and apologize. Am I an asshole for raising that point ? Probably. Slow-burn frustration has a way of making one exceptionally bitter on a long enough timeline when money has been put up in good-faith.

Again, it's not an error of facts, its the attempts at maliciously spreading FUD. If you didn't believe that this was a fraud, how is the felony record relevant to the discussion, whatsoever? Maybe I misread your continuous posts about his felony record, maybe I misread your statement that they need to find a way to prove that they're not a fraud. Maybe everything you said just came out wrong. So what WAS the over-arcing message you were trying to get out, that WASN'T FUD and allegations of fraud? I'm willing to listen.

Please point out the post where I state they still need to prove they are not a scam. That does not sound like something I would say, considering I don't believe they are a scam and already own one of their products. Shady ? Sure. A scam ? Verifiably not, so far.

You got it!

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/05/weve-got-a-butterfly-labs-bitcoin-miner-and-its-pretty-darn-fast/

BFL has to find some way to prove they aren't a fraud with ASICs, considering they have yet to ship anything in quantity for almost a year now since taking preorder money...

[PuertoLibre]

Purging the occasional toxic customer will be better for everybody. Maybe he can go buy some more USB sticks from ASICMINER now. Those seem like a totally solid investment...

The best recourse would be for the customers en masse to purge this toxic company and thus allow the market to be repopulated with more reputable and reliable businesses. The only reason this is dragging on is pipe dreams of thousands of people who assume they will get something that hashes.

The implosion of BFL is nearing, and as someone without any orders with BFL, I am glad I won't have to make the decision to jump ship before everyone else does. This from here on out is going to be a race for the bottom. A game of suicide chicken that neither Wrenchmonkey or Xian01 have any moves laterally. It is either you get out now or suffer the consequences of the following:

1. Under performing prototypes that fail to meet projected specifications
2. Repeatedly missed deadlines and over estimation of delivery and production schedules
3. Inefficient, mixed and collapsing system of JIT production
4. Disinformation, misinformation and incompetency at all level of the company communications
5. Questionable moral character of some of the parties involved in the company
6. Ever growing competitor base that threatens to wipe out their market share

Looking at that list as well as more that could be added who is the "winner"? The toxicity of the environment in this case was caused not by rightly disgruntled customers rather a less than lucid group at BFL who simply are taken full advantage of the position they carved out in the market place as the option to get mining rigs. The real downfall of BFL will invariable  come from the combination of the points above, vocal ex-customers, and the failure to ship any products. The reality is that BFL may ship something... but it will be far too little too late and with real competition from DIY / Open source as well as private entities they will not be ready to build the 2nd generation of ASICs. That is where the real battle lines are now. Not GEN I but GEN II. They missed the window it is over.

The age of customer Darwin-ism?

[Xian01]

 I see that I am stating an opinion that BFL is not a fraud, because they have shipped out these units to specific recipients most likely to give BFL positive press. It is a stretch and disingenuous to state I am outright calling them a scam or fraud. Quite the contrary in fact.

You got it!

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/05/weve-got-a-butterfly-labs-bitcoin-miner-and-its-pretty-darn-fast/

BFL has to find some way to prove they aren't a fraud with ASICs, considering they have yet to ship anything in quantity for almost a year now since taking preorder money...

[darkmule]

If "wrenchmonkey" keeps practicing his fellatio techniques, perhaps Josh will allow him the honor of splooging in his mouth some day.  He has something to aspire to!

[k9quaint]

This wrenchmonkey assclown ought to apply for a job with BFL.  He's doing great PR for them.  He's even more of a dick than Josh.

This sums up the last few pages of this thread nicely.
Although, it sounds like he has already applied for a job and been accepted. He has been hard at work trolling BFL customers who complain, derailing threads with insults, and kicking sand in people's eyes.

In other news, Avalon is shipping batch 2. As soon as that hash power comes online, ASICMiner can deploy additional resources without gaining too big  of a share of the network hash rate.

Edit: Wrenchmonkey doesn't even realize Sonny is actually a convicted felon. /facepalm
The BFL incompetence continues.

[ecliptic]

Friendly Reminder That Butterfly Labs Has No FCC Certification For Any Of Their Products, A Fact You Should Try Taking Up With The FCC