Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[PuertoLibre]

Example,
A customer purchases a machine that mixes heavy concrete in large batches. The customer purchased it from me as vendor for his use and buisness and the contract specifies I must deliver within 90 days. I give the customer constant assurances that everything is on schedule and the machine that mixes concrete will be on time.

Now I do that for the next 11 months. (remember 90 days was the agreement, promise or no promise)

You do realize that if I miss my target date then I have to inform them with a accurate timeline as to when it may arrive or be completed....and even when it will be delivered to them. I miss more than 20 of those promised ship dates.

----------------

What do you think will happen?

The customer will take me to court, the customer will ask the court to give them payments for damages they incurred by the late delivery of a product they ordered and paid for.

They will get their refund, plus I will have to pay for all the other issues they seek repayment for.

---------------

In this case, Single SC customers paid for a device that produces Virtual BitCoins Currency. They paid in good faith. They paid in full, up front and they were given a reasonable shipping date. Then they were given additional dates for the next 11 months.

Seeing how that became a trend, I find it hard to believe BFL hasn't been sued yet to the tune of the device itself plus monthly sums the customer failed to receive due to BFL's poor business practices and constant date fabrication. (in my opinion)

Edit: It will be like "mining BFL" rather than with BFL hardware. (a small joke)

60Gh/s x 180 days = (Guesstimation) 400 to 700 BTC~!

52,000 to 93,000 USD per BFL Single SC customer....yikes....That is only for one (1) 60Gh/s machine....

I don't think even BFL customers know how much they have lost in the year long wait...

[Endlessa]

Example,
A customer purchases a machine that mixes heavy concrete in large batches. The customer purchased it from me as vendor for his use and buisness and the contract specifies I must deliver within 90 days. I give the customer constant assurances that everything is on schedule and the machine that mixes concrete will be on time.

Now I do that for the next 11 months. (remember 90 days was the agreement, promise or no promise)

You do realize that if I miss my target date then I have to inform them with a accurate timeline as to when it may arrive or be completed....and even when it will be delivered to them. I miss more than 20 of those promised ship dates.

----------------

What do you think will happen?

The customer will take me to court, the customer will ask the court to give them payments for damages they incurred by the late delivery of a product they ordered and paid for.

They will get their refund, plus I will have to pay for all the other issues they seek repayment for.

---------------

In this case, Single SC customers paid for a device that produces Virtual BitCoins Currency. They paid in good faith. They paid in full, up front and they were given a reasonable shipping date. Then they were given additional dates for the next 11 months.

Seeing how that became a trend, I find it hard to believe BFL hasn't been sued yet to the tune of the device itself plus monthly sums the customer failed to receive due to BFL's poor business practices and constant date fabrication.

Great scenario, but in the instance your speaking of there would something called an SLA (Service Level Agreement).  That would be the grounds you would hold the them liable. Such is not the case with BFL.

Did he have one? No he did not.  
Was he aware he was pre-ordering a product that was not in hand? Yes.
Did he choose to order it anyways? Yes.  
Was a refund available when the product was not shipped on the previous projections? Yes.  
Did he choose to take it? No.
Did he choose to accept the delays by not getting a refund? Yes
Does it give him the right to complain? Yes
Does it give him the right to harm their business? No.
Do both parties have the right to terminate the agreement? Yes
Is this an unheard of situation in business? No.

It may be frustrating but that the reality of doing business. lets talk about facts, not parody of non-related issues.

[k9quaint]

Absolutely false. I have never claimed BFL was a scam.

You implied it.  . and been supportive of people saying it.  Do I really need to link the "Newbie" thread?  And the history of your comments is misleading, since you've already stating you were deleting posts while you were begging to get your orders back.  And threatening a lawsuit at the same time (wtf. . .. how did you think that would end). . . .And created this thread. .. all the while in shoutbox begging to get your units.

Ugh,

Alright, so if I ran a company like BFL. I guess Endlessa would tell me I did the right thing by giving Xian his money back, despite having legitimate complaints and openly stating various recourses for failing to meet my obligations to deliver his purchased product in a reasonable time frame.

Again it has nothing to do with that.  Nobody said don't complain. Not even me.  I said don't abuse (again I'm not talking about Josh, I'm talking about BFL).

And yes I would say you did the right thing, the damage being done was not the worth the money he was paying for his pittance of product.

IMO

Edit: Don't abuse a company you want to sell you things. If you want to abuse them cancel your order, then by all means free speech and what not

Companies who routinely alienate their customers are one of the following: on their way out of business(Amy's Baking Company), have no business (scam), or have a monopoly position (cable companies).  BFL was absolutely with in their rights to terminate the relationship and they did so at no cost to themselves. Since the product was a pre-sale, BFL can't recognize that money until the unit is shipped.

Cisco (for all its faults) at least works hard to hide their disdain for their customer base. They are trying to gouge every last cent out of you, but they are as subtle as they can be about it. They treat their customers very nicely (as long as they pay) and will endure any amount of abuse from them (as long as they pay). Cisco has lots of competition.

BFL has had very little competition. ASICMiner didn't ship product, and Avalon did limited runs. That all comes to an end in August after the wave of Avalon chips hits the market. BFL has 2 more months with little to no competition, then they have to work for their customers. Anyone deciding between "ASICSellerX" and BFL can read the way BFL has treated their customers to date. So why on earth would BFL continue to insult and bully their customers?

BFL must think their reputation won't matter in the long run. Eventually, we will find out why.

[Endlessa]

Absolutely false. I have never claimed BFL was a scam.

You implied it.  . and been supportive of people saying it.  Do I really need to link the "Newbie" thread?  And the history of your comments is misleading, since you've already stating you were deleting posts while you were begging to get your orders back.  And threatening a lawsuit at the same time (wtf. . .. how did you think that would end). . . .And created this thread. .. all the while in shoutbox begging to get your units.

Ugh,

Alright, so if I ran a company like BFL. I guess Endlessa would tell me I did the right thing by giving Xian his money back, despite having legitimate complaints and openly stating various recourses for failing to meet my obligations to deliver his purchased product in a reasonable time frame.

Again it has nothing to do with that.  Nobody said don't complain. Not even me.  I said don't abuse (again I'm not talking about Josh, I'm talking about BFL).

And yes I would say you did the right thing, the damage being done was not the worth the money he was paying for his pittance of product.

IMO

Edit: Don't abuse a company you want to sell you things. If you want to abuse them cancel your order, then by all means free speech and what not

Companies who routinely alienate their customers are one of the following: on their way out of business(Amy's Baking Company), have no business (scam), or have a monopoly position (cable companies).  BFL was absolutely with in their rights to terminate the relationship and they did so at no cost to themselves. Since the product was a pre-sale, BFL can't recognize that money until the unit is shipped.

Cisco (for all its faults) at least works hard to hide their disdain for their customer base. They are trying to gouge every last cent out of you, but they are as subtle as they can be about it. They treat their customers very nicely (as long as they pay) and will endure any amount of abuse from them (as long as they pay). Cisco has lots of competition.

BFL has had very little competition. ASICMiner didn't ship product, and Avalon did limited runs. That all comes to an end in August after the wave of Avalon chips hits the market. BFL has 2 more months with little to no competition, then they have to work for their customers. Anyone deciding between "ASICSellerX" and BFL can read the way BFL has treated their customers to date. So why on earth would BFL continue to insult and bully their customers?

BFL must think their reputation won't matter in the long run. Eventually, we will find out why.

Wouldn't argue anything there. .  .the last part will be seen in the future.  A lot of some companies in niche markets experience this.  Hopefully, both the market and the company will mature together or free market will decide.  Though I don't have faith that the miners won't buy reasonably priced hardware once the product is in hand.  I'd love to see more/better competition, because I believe in free market driving the best product/experience.

[Xian01]

Absolutely false. I have never claimed BFL was a scam.

You implied it.  . and been supportive of people saying it.  Do I really need to link the "Newbie" thread?  And the history of your comments is misleading, since you've already stating you were deleting posts while you were begging to get your orders back.  And threatening a lawsuit at the same time (wtf. . .. how did you think that would end). . . .And created this thread. .. all the while in shoutbox begging to get your units.

I have explicitly stated I do not believe Butterfly Labs is a scam.

In retrospect, it was a mistake to delete my comments. Think I only deleted 2 or 3 of the most bitter ones.

Creating this thread was a public service announcement.

[k9quaint]

Great scenario, but in the instance your speaking of there would something called an SLA (Service Level Agreement).  That would be the grounds you would hold the them liable. Such is not the case with BFL.

There is one other alternative:
If BFL knowingly made false statements about the state of their product (like they would ship in 2 weeks when they had no working chips), you could file a civil case against them for fraud. There are 3 components needed to prove fraud:

1) Material false statements made. These forums are full of statements made by BFL that later turned out to be impossible. We need not discuss them at length.

2) Reliance on the statements by the victims. People hang on BFL's every word while trying to determine when (if ever) they can ship in volume. Whenever BFL reports that they will ship "in two weeks" TM, everyone who bought is reassured.

3) Damage to the victim was caused. Loss of income. If you offer to provide a product or service and then fail to do so, you have damaged the customer if they are relying on that product or service to make money. If BFL never claimed a ship date, nobody could rely on that date for the beginning of an income stream.

[Endlessa]

Absolutely false. I have never claimed BFL was a scam.

You implied it.  . and been supportive of people saying it.  Do I really need to link the "Newbie" thread?  And the history of your comments is misleading, since you've already stating you were deleting posts while you were begging to get your orders back.  And threatening a lawsuit at the same time (wtf. . .. how did you think that would end). . . .And created this thread. .. all the while in shoutbox begging to get your units.

I have explicitly stated I do not believe Butterfly Labs is a scam.

In retrospect, it was a mistake to delete my comments. Think I only deleted 2 or 3 of the most bitter ones.

Creating this thread was a public service announcement.

lol Ok so let me get this straight.  You stating you've done nothing wrong and have no personal responsibility in the outcome of this matter.  And that you are the PBS of bitcointalk.

Welp, guess there's nothing to talk about here, lets close this thread down people!

[Xian01]

lol Ok so let me get this straight.  You stating you've done nothing wrong and have no personal responsibility in the outcome of this matter.  And that you are the PBS of bitcointalk.
Welp, guess there's nothing to talk about here, lets close this thread down people!

I paid money to advertise here just like Butterfly Labs. I will take the comparison to PBS as a compliment.

The only thing I have done wrong is get way too upset over not receiving product for over 11 months, and calling the COO of Butterfly Labs out on his poor behavior on these forums in an overly harsh manner. In retrospect, that was uncool, i could have handled myself more calmly, and I apologize, again.

You are right. There is nothing further to talk to you about here. Back to the BFL sycophant shoutbox with you.

[Endlessa]

Great scenario, but in the instance your speaking of there would something called an SLA (Service Level Agreement).  That would be the grounds you would hold the them liable. Such is not the case with BFL.

There is one other alternative:
If BFL knowingly made false statements about the state of their product (like they would ship in 2 weeks when they had no working chips), you could file a civil case against them for fraud. There are 3 components needed to prove fraud:

1) Material false statements made. These forums are full of statements made by BFL that later turned out to be impossible. We need not discuss them at length.

2) Reliance on the statements by the victims. People hang on BFL's every word while trying to determine when (if ever) they can ship in volume. Whenever BFL reports that they will ship "in two weeks" TM, everyone who bought is reassured.

3) Damage to the victim was caused. Loss of income. If you offer to provide a product or service and then fail to do so, you have damaged the customer if they are relying on that product or service to make money. If BFL never claimed a ship date, nobody could rely on that date for the beginning of an income stream.

1) They believed they could do what they said (Good luck disproving that).  No, if you read the history, not the trolling, they were very transparent about what happened.  
2) Perhaps, but I will still hold that they (right or wrong) thought they could solve the issues and get it working at the times they said.  This can be shown by them drop the FPGA production contract, because they actually thought they'd be delivering. (In hindsight they admitted they wished they had not done this, because they lost a lot of income)
3) There was no victim here.  Each person is responsible for evaluating their own risk/potential.  At any point, any person can exit when they feel the risk is not acceptable.  

This happens all the time in hardware manufacturing of servers, slip deadlines, etc.  During the dot com boom it was rampant, there was nothing you could do about it with out an SLA contract (which you paid dearly with $$ for).  It cost plenty of companies hard money and opportunity.  All you can do is a proper risk assessment  and  decide to pull your order and go else where or wait it out.  Same thing here. . .again it does suck horribly, but if your going to be in the mining "business" this needs to be considered in your assessments.

[Bicknellski]

No let's keep the thread up and let us continue to add to the mountain of horseshit that BFL continues to produce... There is absolutely no defense possible for BFL at this point. This is the death spiral we are watching. This will not be the last "cancellation" and "refund" thread.

Even if one person who reads this and decides no I will not do business with these people then it is better than PBS.

[Endlessa]

No let's keep the thread up and let us continue to add to the mountain of horseshit that BFL continues to produce... There is absolutely no defense possible for BFL at this point. This is the death spiral we are watching. This will not be the last "cancellation" and "refund" thread.

Even if one person who reads this and decides no I will not do business with these people then it is better than PBS.

Hey everybody is entitled to a nicely stated opinion.  

Full disclosure, I do have several orders with BFL.  I am happy with my experience.  I am also happy with the returns I will be getting when ever my product lands on my door.

Though, I think that's mostly because I came into this with my eyes wide open, had experience with several different small companies/startups, and am willing to accept whatever loss I take before I see gains until I decide it's too much or a product is delivered.

As, far as the hate speech goes, these are forums on the internet.  Everybody loses their shit eventually on people that annoy them, if it's too much log off or whatever happens is just that.

I just hope people in the future can take responsibility for their actions, maintaining their business relationships, and their own decisions. You'll never be able to sustain a mining business without thinking about business concerns.

Also, I love PBS too I was just being playful I argue only in the hope of doing my best to explore something, or express my own truth.

G' luck peeps

[bassclef]

This is not about Xian (although Endlessa would like you to believe it is, now that he's taken out ads against BFL)...

It's about BFL, their shady CEO and equally as shady business practices.

[Endlessa]

This is not about Xian (although Endlessa would like you to believe it is, now that he's taken out ads against BFL)...

It's about BFL, their shady CEO and equally as shady business practices.

"Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders " <-- thread

and the reasons it happened. ...somebody got a link to the ad? I'll go get some popcorn

Maybe you should create a new thread "My ad campaign!"

[Endlessa]

lol nm it just ironically popped up on my screen lol

[Bitcoinorama]

Ironically on mine too, followed by a BFL Single SC ad when I refreshed!

[k9quaint]

Great scenario, but in the instance your speaking of there would something called an SLA (Service Level Agreement).  That would be the grounds you would hold the them liable. Such is not the case with BFL.

There is one other alternative:
If BFL knowingly made false statements about the state of their product (like they would ship in 2 weeks when they had no working chips), you could file a civil case against them for fraud. There are 3 components needed to prove fraud:

1) Material false statements made. These forums are full of statements made by BFL that later turned out to be impossible. We need not discuss them at length.

2) Reliance on the statements by the victims. People hang on BFL's every word while trying to determine when (if ever) they can ship in volume. Whenever BFL reports that they will ship "in two weeks" TM, everyone who bought is reassured.

3) Damage to the victim was caused. Loss of income. If you offer to provide a product or service and then fail to do so, you have damaged the customer if they are relying on that product or service to make money. If BFL never claimed a ship date, nobody could rely on that date for the beginning of an income stream.

1) They believed they could do what they said (Good luck disproving that).  No, if you read the history, not the trolling, they were very transparent about what happened.  

I have been on these forums since before day one of BFL's FPGA business. There is documented evidence of them claiming things that could not possibly be true (claims of chip power measurements and later admitting they had not even received the chips yet, sending product to test labs for FCC certification then later admitting they changed their chips packaging because it melted, etc). Those are not trolls, they are facts and have been linked here ad infinitum. Always there are new posters who show up (unaware of the history or not following the links to hear BFL's own words) and claim it is all just made up and BFL never made false statements. That is the nature of internet forums. Of course, as soon as I start providing links to the statements made by BFL along with a timeline I become a "troll" and links to other peoples words are obviously just my lies to start flame threads...
One does not have to prove what they believe. One most only prove they knowingly made a false public statement to reassure their customer base about the state of the product.

2) Perhaps, but I will still hold that they (right or wrong) thought they could solve the issues and get it working at the times they said.  This can be shown by them drop the FPGA production contract, because they actually thought they'd be delivering. (In hindsight they admitted they wished they had not done this, because they lost a lot of income)

They released statements to ensure their investors (some call them customers). There is no way on earth they could have measured the power output or hash speed of a chip that did not yet exist (which supposedly had 20% of their current power usage). They then waged a marketing campaign based on power efficiency, their chips were 5 times better etc etc. Nor could they have sent product for testing that ran so hot it melted the chip packaging.
They might have believed eventually that they could solve the problems, but the forums were clamoring for concrete milestones. Maybe they felt they had to provide something that demonstrated progress. They were after all in an intense 3-way marketing war with Avalon and bASIC for customers.

3) There was no victim here.  Each person is responsible for evaluating their own risk/potential.  At any point, any person can exit when they feel the risk is not acceptable.  

Actually that is not correct. If you sell a product that did not exist and announce in a press release that product will ship in two weeks you are treading on very thin ice if it does not. This is not a case of selling a product that exists but cannot be obtained. This is selling a product that did not yet exist and misrepresenting the state of development.

This happens all the time in hardware manufacturing of servers, slip deadlines, etc.  During the dot com boom it was rampant, there was nothing you could do about it with out an SLA contract (which you paid dearly with $$ for).  It cost plenty of companies hard money and opportunity.  All you can do is a proper risk assessment  and  decide to pull your order and go else where or wait it out.  Same thing here. . .again it does suck horribly, but if your going to be in the mining "business" this needs to be considered in your assessments.

Again, selling servers that exist and function but cannot be obtained due to supply or manufacturing issues are governed by very different rules than products that do not yet exist and/or do not yet function. If you ever wondered why BFL only accepts Bitcoin or Paypal, it is because credit card companies will come after you if you sell products to their customers that do not exist. They were forced to ship a few products when Paypal demanded they do so to demonstrate the product existed (Jody admitted this).

[Endlessa]

That's another way of assessing it

I'm just saying from a risk management perspective you have to assess it (independent of belief or emotion) decide what your truth is and accept responsibility for it



Edit: and never risk what you can't lose

[Bicknellski]

No let's keep the thread up and let us continue to add to the mountain of horseshit that BFL continues to produce... There is absolutely no defense possible for BFL at this point. This is the death spiral we are watching. This will not be the last "cancellation" and "refund" thread.

Even if one person who reads this and decides no I will not do business with these people then it is better than PBS.

Hey everybody is entitled to a nicely stated opinion.  

Full disclosure, I do have several orders with BFL.  I am happy with my experience.  I am also happy with the returns I will be getting when ever my product lands on my door.

Though, I think that's mostly because I came into this with my eyes wide open, had experience with several different small companies/startups, and am willing to accept whatever loss I take before I see gains until I decide it's too much or a product is delivered.

As, far as the hate speech goes, these are forums on the internet.  Everybody loses their shit eventually on people that annoy them, if it's too much log off or whatever happens is just that.

I just hope people in the future can take responsibility for their actions, maintaining their business relationships, and their own decisions. You'll never be able to sustain a mining business without thinking about business concerns.

Also, I love PBS too I was just being playful I argue only in the hope of doing my best to explore something, or express my own truth.

G' luck peeps

Your own "truth" really? Give me a break. There is little thing called reality. It is obvious to most anyone just reading Josh's posts alone that BFL is a world of denial. Your support for them as tepid as it is doesn't do much of anything. You have clearly agreed with the basic premise BFL is not delivering as promised and they can't be defended in any way  shape or form given their business practices to date. There will be repercussions that linger in this community when BFL implodes in a few weeks or months. Rather than supporting a company potentially ranging from the minimal it has issue in PR and Production to the maximum BFL maybe fraudulent and criminal in its behaviour I suggest you pull your orders in solidarity and help pull their house of cards down now rather than string along more people needlessly. At this point your feeble whitewashing of this as some how necessary for the good of BFL is simply the most outrageous form of either hubris or self-denial I can't determine which.

These threads are a VERY VERY important lessons for those new and less informed that there are people in this community, particularly those at BFL, have no regard for the forward movement of Bitcoin. The glaring differences of Avalon and BFL are so stark that one wonders how on one hand a group of people attempts to "corner" a market and fails miserably while another attempts to drive a wedge into any attempt for anyone to corner the market and are in a position to corner the market but instead seek alternatives at their expense? To me when you look at what those two brands represent. One actually delivers honesty and the other lacks any form institutional ethics and openly flaunts their disregard for the entire community.

I think you are part of the problem. Xian apologizes openly for his behavior... where is the same from Josh? Jody? You? No sorry but you get no pass here. You really are the worst type of person to lay blame at this guys feet. You are part of the problem now. You are enabling BFL and even encouraging this to keep happening. I find that repulsive.

[k9quaint]

That's another way of assessing it

I'm just saying from a risk management perspective you have to assess it (independent of belief or emotion) decide what your truth is and accept responsibility for it

Edit: and never risk what you can't lose

Of course all of BFL's customers should have been aware of the risks involved and treated it like the purchase of a lottery ticket.

I was pointing out that BFL probably violated any number of consumer protection laws. For instance, regarding Virginia:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+59.1-200

§ 59.1-200. Prohibited practices.
A. The following fraudulent acts or practices committed by a supplier in connection with a consumer transaction are hereby declared unlawful:
5. Misrepresenting that goods or services have certain quantities, characteristics, ingredients, uses, or benefits;

Most states have similar laws on the books.

[Endlessa]

No let's keep the thread up and let us continue to add to the mountain of horseshit that BFL continues to produce... There is absolutely no defense possible for BFL at this point. This is the death spiral we are watching. This will not be the last "cancellation" and "refund" thread.

Even if one person who reads this and decides no I will not do business with these people then it is better than PBS.

Hey everybody is entitled to a nicely stated opinion.  

Full disclosure, I do have several orders with BFL.  I am happy with my experience.  I am also happy with the returns I will be getting when ever my product lands on my door.

Though, I think that's mostly because I came into this with my eyes wide open, had experience with several different small companies/startups, and am willing to accept whatever loss I take before I see gains until I decide it's too much or a product is delivered.

As, far as the hate speech goes, these are forums on the internet.  Everybody loses their shit eventually on people that annoy them, if it's too much log off or whatever happens is just that.

I just hope people in the future can take responsibility for their actions, maintaining their business relationships, and their own decisions. You'll never be able to sustain a mining business without thinking about business concerns.

Also, I love PBS too I was just being playful I argue only in the hope of doing my best to explore something, or express my own truth.

G' luck peeps

Your own "truth" really? Give me a break. There is little thing called reality. It is obvious to most anyone just reading Josh's posts alone that BFL is a world of denial. Your support for them as tepid as it is doesn't do much of anything. You have clearly agreed with the basic premise BFL is not delivering as promised and they can't be defended in any way  shape or form given their business practices to date. There will be repercussions that linger in this community when BFL implodes in a few weeks or months. Rather than supporting a company potentially ranging from the minimal it has issue in PR and Production to the maximum BFL maybe fraudulent and criminal in its behaviour I suggest you pull your orders in solidarity and help pull their house of cards down now rather than string along more people needlessly. At this point your feeble whitewashing of this as some how necessary for the good of BFL is simply the most outrageous form of either hubris or self-denial I can't determine which.

These threads are a VERY VERY important lessons for those new and less informed that there are people in this community, particularly those at BFL, have no regard for the forward movement of Bitcoin. The glaring differences of Avalon and BFL are so stark that one wonders how on one hand a group of people attempts to "corner" a market and fails miserably while another attempts to drive a wedge into any attempt for anyone to corner the market and are in a position to corner the market but instead seek alternatives at their expense? To me when you look at what those two brands represent. One actually delivers honesty and the other lacks any form institutional ethics and openly flaunts their disregard for the entire community.

I think you are part of the problem. Xian apologizes openly for his behavior... where is the same from Josh? Jody? You? No sorry but you get no pass here. You really are the worst type of person to lay blame at this guys feet. You are part of the problem now. You are enabling BFL and even encouraging this to keep happening. I find that repulsive.

Well you can think what you like about me and anybody else.   I'm not apologizing for my behavior, because I have just expressed my opinion and the world as I see it.  I think it's important for people to see both sides of a story.  I personally live by a strong belief that everybody is responsible for themselves.  I also don't particularly feel the same way about avalon as you do.  Avalon is a greedy price gouger that is taking advantage of a community for short term gains.  Remains to be seen where batch 3 lands on the scale.  But again that's my perspective (truth).  Now, you seem to be a person who believes in absolute truth.  In my opinion, there is no such thing, except in mathematics .  To me, it seems naive to think that anyone here (or any where) speaks with absolute truth.  We speak with our individual truths.  We converse and believe in things until other people convince us differently or we are isolated from any other conflicting ideas.  I can see your statements are full of emotion and conjecture.  So I will read them as such, because it's my view and it's my right to have it.  Also, I feel there is a difference between saying "I'm sorry" and behaving as if you are.   A person can say that all day long, then run a defaming ad campaign, threaten lawsuits, and then persecute people with differing opinions.  None of that says I'm sorry. . .and I saw him do it while apologizing.  So I personally believe we're looking at a two headed snake here.  BFL aside, for me, nothing about this seems to be sincere from xian.  I'd agree with you on the apology issue otherwise.  Instead, it seems like a venom filled immature tantrum thinly veiled as a PSA and an apology.  I'm not dumb enough to buy it.  In addition, I'm not going to argue the BFL bit with you because most of it is conjecture and the rest of it is boring crap that's been beaten to death on both sides.