Butterfly Labs Forced "On Hold For Refund" for all my Single SC orders

[Endlessa]

That's another way of assessing it

I'm just saying from a risk management perspective you have to assess it (independent of belief or emotion) decide what your truth is and accept responsibility for it

Edit: and never risk what you can't lose

Of course all of BFL's customers should have been aware of the risks involved and treated it like the purchase of a lottery ticket.

I was pointing out that BFL probably violated any number of consumer protection laws. For instance, regarding Virginia:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+59.1-200

§ 59.1-200. Prohibited practices.
A. The following fraudulent acts or practices committed by a supplier in connection with a consumer transaction are hereby declared unlawful:
5. Misrepresenting that goods or services have certain quantities, characteristics, ingredients, uses, or benefits;

Most states have similar laws on the books.

I understand and have read that law.  But for that to stick you have to prove intent. ...ask any lawyer, it sounds simple, but it's not

You have to get a jury to believe that BFL knew what they said was untrue when they said it. It is not as hard as you think. Especially give some of the whoppers told. Moreover, subjecting BFL to scrutiny via subpoena and deposition would be tons of fun.

yes reasonable doubt is easy to beat. . . ask OJ he definitely knows how extremely hard it is to introduce reasonable doubt . . . (Not talking about BFL on this, just the law) .  . also I believe that law requires a good be received by the customer that doesn't live up to an advertisement.  

[k9quaint]

I understand and have read that law.  But for that to stick you have to prove intent. ...ask any lawyer, it sounds simple, but it's not

I just love seeing these brand new accounts coming to BFL's defense after missing 7+ months of deadlines. Quite entertianing. Thanks Josh.

+1

I find it difficult to believe there are this many people with their heads in the sand. Newbie accounts spring up everyday with nothing but carefully constructed apologies and excuses in hand for BFL's non-performance and outright deceptions.

Translation: I can't believe there are this many people who don't believe what I believe and are willing to voice opinions about it.  It can't be possible.  They must all be the same person

Over the past 11 months there has been a steady stream of low post count people who appear, defend BFL for a while and then disappear. First they defended BFL's power claims even though they violated the laws of physics. Then they defended the shipping dates but those fell one by one, their defenders vanished into the night. Some defended BFL's disdain for their customer base, others encouraged Josh to be vindictive and petty. I am sure in 3 months, there will be a new set of names who just "discovered" BFL. Also, several cases of astroturfing have been uncovered on these very forums in relation to failed projects and out-right scams/theft. So people are naturally going to be leery of an account that was created May 06, 2013, at 11:49:49 AM suddenly entering a conversation in defense of a troubled project.

Personally I think that people who are new to the board are simply unaware of the history of BFL and haven't educated themselves. They might have a BFL order or two and coast along as far as confirmation bias will take them.

[int03h]

Appears this Ivan character loves to slurp some Josh dong:

Code:

[10:29 PM]   BFL_Josh : I don't know off the top of my head.
[10:29 PM]   Ivan Frimmel : have you got all the show cooties off ?  :) takes days to wash those off your clothes :) 

Very unfortunate. I thought Ivan was smarter than that. Sycophantry is serious business to some.

I looked up Sycophantry and I found this thread... am I in the wrong place?

[nottm28]

Over the past 11 months there has been a steady stream of low post count people who appear, defend BFL for a while and then disappear. First they defended BFL's power claims even though they violated the laws of physics. Then they defended the shipping dates but those fell one by one, their defenders vanished into the night. Some defended BFL's disdain for their customer base, others encouraged Josh to be vindictive and petty. I am sure in 3 months, there will be a new set of names who just "discovered" BFL. Also, several cases of astroturfing have been uncovered on these very forums in relation to failed projects and out-right scams/theft. So people are naturally going to be leery of an account that was created May 06, 2013, at 11:49:49 AM suddenly entering a conversation in defense of a troubled project.

Personally I think that people who are new to the board are simply unaware of the history of BFL and haven't educated themselves. They might have a BFL order or two and coast along as far as confirmation bias will take them.

Well that is a decent argument I will give you some credit for these points. My BFL order was mid March so I haven't had the pain some people have had. I still think most of the BFL slaters have agendas of their own however and it's not simply their altruistic natures that makes them want to 'educate' us fools.

The ones who shout the loudest have avalon asics and they really, really, really want BFL to fail - to the point they can taste it. More asics = less coins for them. I fear the need for you 'old timers' to want to educate us noobs is less altruism and more greed.

[Endlessa]

I understand and have read that law.  But for that to stick you have to prove intent. ...ask any lawyer, it sounds simple, but it's not

I just love seeing these brand new accounts coming to BFL's defense after missing 7+ months of deadlines. Quite entertianing. Thanks Josh.

+1

I find it difficult to believe there are this many people with their heads in the sand. Newbie accounts spring up everyday with nothing but carefully constructed apologies and excuses in hand for BFL's non-performance and outright deceptions.

Translation: I can't believe there are this many people who don't believe what I believe and are willing to voice opinions about it.  It can't be possible.  They must all be the same person

Over the past 11 months there has been a steady stream of low post count people who appear, defend BFL for a while and then disappear. First they defended BFL's power claims even though they violated the laws of physics. Then they defended the shipping dates but those fell one by one, their defenders vanished into the night. Some defended BFL's disdain for their customer base, others encouraged Josh to be vindictive and petty. I am sure in 3 months, there will be a new set of names who just "discovered" BFL. Also, several cases of astroturfing have been uncovered on these very forums in relation to failed projects and out-right scams/theft. So people are naturally going to be leery of an account that was created May 06, 2013, at 11:49:49 AM suddenly entering a conversation in defense of a troubled project.

Personally I think that people who are new to the board are simply unaware of the history of BFL and haven't educated themselves. They might have a BFL order or two and coast along as far as confirmation bias will take them.

No, I'm well aware of their history all the way back to FPGAs. . . hell I even time machined their website back to when it was a nature site. . . .and went through the whole process.  What astounds me is how little people understand about the realities of product development and project management.  I've never denied the points of fact in this lil' adventure, I've just posed a different meaning to them.    I never said they nailed the number out of the gate.   I also feel comfortable with where they ended up.  I also know it's a rare day when people do hit number on time.    History is what happened.  Things were proposed and adjusted.  It's part of product refinement.  Is it late? yes  Is it unheard of? No.    

[Endlessa]

Over the past 11 months there has been a steady stream of low post count people who appear, defend BFL for a while and then disappear. First they defended BFL's power claims even though they violated the laws of physics. Then they defended the shipping dates but those fell one by one, their defenders vanished into the night. Some defended BFL's disdain for their customer base, others encouraged Josh to be vindictive and petty. I am sure in 3 months, there will be a new set of names who just "discovered" BFL. Also, several cases of astroturfing have been uncovered on these very forums in relation to failed projects and out-right scams/theft. So people are naturally going to be leery of an account that was created May 06, 2013, at 11:49:49 AM suddenly entering a conversation in defense of a troubled project.

Personally I think that people who are new to the board are simply unaware of the history of BFL and haven't educated themselves. They might have a BFL order or two and coast along as far as confirmation bias will take them.

Well that is a decent argument I will give you some credit for these points. My BFL order was mid March so I haven't had the pain some people have had. I still think most of the BFL slaters have agendas of their own however and it's not simply their altruistic natures that makes them want to 'educate' us fools.

The ones who shout the loudest have avalon asics and they really, really, really want BFL to fail - to the point they can taste it. More asics = less coins for them. I fear the need for you 'old timers' to want to educate us noobs is less altruism and more greed.

Ditto this.  Circle jerking FUD until you accumulate enough circular links to cite it like it's wikipedia does not constitute a "case".

[Syke]

There is no 'breach of contract', any business can perfectly legally refuse you service or delivery and choose to refund your money. How do you not understand this? Hell, a gas station can refuse you to buy a pack of gum if they feel like it. Nothing illegal about that unless they refuse you based on race, gender or sexual orientation.

"Refusing" a purchase is very different than accepting payment, failing to deliver the goods, raising the prices, and forcing a refund on a customer. While it may not be literally illegal, it is scammy.

[Endlessa]

There is no 'breach of contract', any business can perfectly legally refuse you service or delivery and choose to refund your money. How do you not understand this? Hell, a gas station can refuse you to buy a pack of gum if they feel like it. Nothing illegal about that unless they refuse you based on race, gender or sexual orientation.

"Refusing" a purchase is very different than accepting payment, failing to deliver the goods, raising the prices, and forcing a refund on a customer. While it may not be literally illegal, it is scammy.

Actually Swede is right, you need to learn a little about business. I think half of this problem is because you niche grass roots people were previously the only peeps running around Bitconia and now business people are coming in.  None of this is unfamiliar to anybody who has been involved in business negotiations and processes for any significant amount of time.  BFL doesn't scare us, because we know the pattern, we've seen it dozens of times.  We even understand how to mitigate it. It happens, it's not unusual and we're comfortable with it.  So grab your foil hats people, we're here and we aren't scared of it.  We will not bow to your bloated FUD and we're gonna hash like the well funded bitches we are.  

[nottm28]

we're gonna hash like the well funded bitches we are.   

That's a quality comment - made me laugh

[Endlessa]

we're gonna hash like the well funded bitches we are.  

That's a quality comment - made me laugh

Hehehe I only slept an hour last night and I tend to just say what I mean

[k9quaint]

I understand and have read that law.  But for that to stick you have to prove intent. ...ask any lawyer, it sounds simple, but it's not

I just love seeing these brand new accounts coming to BFL's defense after missing 7+ months of deadlines. Quite entertianing. Thanks Josh.

+1

I find it difficult to believe there are this many people with their heads in the sand. Newbie accounts spring up everyday with nothing but carefully constructed apologies and excuses in hand for BFL's non-performance and outright deceptions.

Translation: I can't believe there are this many people who don't believe what I believe and are willing to voice opinions about it.  It can't be possible.  They must all be the same person

Over the past 11 months there has been a steady stream of low post count people who appear, defend BFL for a while and then disappear. First they defended BFL's power claims even though they violated the laws of physics. Then they defended the shipping dates but those fell one by one, their defenders vanished into the night. Some defended BFL's disdain for their customer base, others encouraged Josh to be vindictive and petty. I am sure in 3 months, there will be a new set of names who just "discovered" BFL. Also, several cases of astroturfing have been uncovered on these very forums in relation to failed projects and out-right scams/theft. So people are naturally going to be leery of an account that was created May 06, 2013, at 11:49:49 AM suddenly entering a conversation in defense of a troubled project.

Personally I think that people who are new to the board are simply unaware of the history of BFL and haven't educated themselves. They might have a BFL order or two and coast along as far as confirmation bias will take them.

No, I'm well aware of their history all the way back to FPGAs. . . hell I even time machined their website back to when it was a nature site. . . .and went through the whole process.  What astounds me is how little people understand about the realities of product development and project management.  I've never denied the points of fact in this lil' adventure, I've just posed a different meaning to them.    I never said they nailed the number out of the gate.   I also feel comfortable with where they ended up.  I also know it's a rare day when people do hit number on time.    History is what happened.  Things were proposed and adjusted.  It's part of product refinement.  Is it late? yes  Is it unheard of? No.    

You are ignoring one thing. The difference between saying "we are aiming to meet this target" and "we have met this target". BFL made statements in the latter category which could not possibly been true. BFL's claims that they had measured and met their power goals and even bet 1000BTC that they had is open to very few alternate interpretations. Especially when it later came out that their chips had not yet arrived from the foundry when they claimed to have measured them.

BFL made statements about having met milestones that had not actually been met. People would be a lot more tolerant of them of they had just been honest. However, people also might not have pre-ordered so many BFL units.

[int03h]

There is no 'breach of contract', any business can perfectly legally refuse you service or delivery and choose to refund your money. How do you not understand this? Hell, a gas station can refuse you to buy a pack of gum if they feel like it. Nothing illegal about that unless they refuse you based on race, gender or sexual orientation.

"Refusing" a purchase is very different than accepting payment, failing to deliver the goods, raising the prices, and forcing a refund on a customer. While it may not be literally illegal, it is scammy.

So you go to a club .. you pay your entrance fee - you behave like a dick. You get thrown out - NO REFUND. This is the proprietors fault somehow?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

we're gonna hash like the well funded bitches we are.  

That's a quality comment - made me laugh

Hehehe I only slept an hour last night and I tend to just say what I mean

Did your daily Midnight to 2AM discussion with LukeJr go longer than expected last night?

Sonny "The Hash King" Vleisides would be proud.

[Endlessa]

There is no 'breach of contract', any business can perfectly legally refuse you service or delivery and choose to refund your money. How do you not understand this? Hell, a gas station can refuse you to buy a pack of gum if they feel like it. Nothing illegal about that unless they refuse you based on race, gender or sexual orientation.

"Refusing" a purchase is very different than accepting payment, failing to deliver the goods, raising the prices, and forcing a refund on a customer. While it may not be literally illegal, it is scammy.

So you go to a club .. you pay your entrance fee - you behave like a dick. You get thrown out - NO REFUND. This is the proprietors fault somehow?

Sad thing is all this hub bub and they did get a refund

[Endlessa]

we're gonna hash like the well funded bitches we are.  

That's a quality comment - made me laugh

Hehehe I only slept an hour last night and I tend to just say what I mean

Did your daily Midnight to 2AM discussion with LukeJr go longer than expected last night?

Sonny "The Hash King" Vleisides would be proud.

Your getting boring now. . .do something to entertain me monkey man!

[k9quaint]

There is no 'breach of contract', any business can perfectly legally refuse you service or delivery and choose to refund your money. How do you not understand this? Hell, a gas station can refuse you to buy a pack of gum if they feel like it. Nothing illegal about that unless they refuse you based on race, gender or sexual orientation.

"Refusing" a purchase is very different than accepting payment, failing to deliver the goods, raising the prices, and forcing a refund on a customer. While it may not be literally illegal, it is scammy.

Actually Swede is right, you need to learn a little about business. I think half of this problem is because you niche grass roots people were previously the only peeps running around Bitconia and now business people are coming in.  None of this is unfamiliar to anybody who has been involved in business negotiations and processes for any significant amount of time.  BFL doesn't scare us, because we know the pattern, we've seen it dozens of times.  We even understand how to mitigate it. It happens, it's not unusual and we're comfortable with it.  So grab your foil hats people, we're here and we aren't scared of it.  We will not bow to your bloated FUD and we're gonna hash like the well funded bitches we are.  

Actually, Swede is wrong. In most states, anytime a product is sold, the seller creates what are called "implied warranties" merely by the act of selling. These are usually simple rules like: the product exists, it does what they say it does, it costs how much they say it costs, etc. Swede might live in a jurisdiction that has limited consumer protection, but since BFL is selling to all 50 states they are subject many state laws and federal consumer protection laws. If Newegg or Amazon were to represent to you that they had something in stock when they actually didn't, they would be violating federal laws and numerous state laws. Or if you bought a device they said existed when it actually did not, they would be in even more trouble. For instance: Ebay marketplace has very strict rules about when you can say something is "in stock", if you violate those rules they kick you to the curb. That is not an arbitrary distinction they are making, it is a necessary one.

"Being around business" as you put it is actually quite common for us engineers on these forums.

The gas station has the gas. It probably also has the gum. Selling products that do not yet exist is not the same thing as refusing service in a retail establishment. This is why Kickstarter won't let you order multiple units and classifies your contributions as donations. Otherwise they eaten alive by lawsuits for facilitating the breaking consumer protection laws.

[nottm28]

You are ignoring one thing...

Are you an avalon asic owner k9quaint? - you don't have to answer but I'd be interested...

[k9quaint]

So you go to a club .. you pay your entrance fee - you behave like a dick. You get thrown out - NO REFUND. This is the proprietors fault somehow?

So you go to a club .. you pay your entrance fee - there is no club, no music, no bar, no dancers, no dance floor, no DJ, no bathrooms, no roof. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. The owners say, there will be a club, just come back in two weeks. You come back in two weeks, but there is still no club. Then you behave like a dick. You don't get thrown out, there is nothing to throw you out of. NO REFUND. This is the proprietors fault.

[Xian01]

So you go to a club .. you pay your entrance fee - you behave like a dick. You get thrown out - NO REFUND. This is the proprietors fault somehow?

Ivan Frimmel ? Is that you ?

[elg]

gg Endlessa